My Response to Stupidity

Well let’s start with a recap:

First State fans are attacked with a mini-tsunami of ignorant analyses. Then the local media responds to the inane utterances with a little rational discussion based on actual facts. (Yea I know. Hard to believe, huh?)

I especially appreciated Al Featherston’s approach of presenting State’s history to defend the conclusion that State should strive to compete with the top teams in the ACC, not just be satisfied with squeaking into the NCAAT. It seems like Jeff has made that same argument here at least a half-dozen times during the marvelous five years of Sendek-ball. It’s always nice when someone provides a nice foundation that we can continue to build on.

How each State fan remembers and categorizes the Sendek era is an extremely personal one…even if you stay grounded in facts. For instance, the numbers 8-38 are presented by some as the most damning piece of evidence on the Sendek era. However, those numbers never represented the same kind of power to me. I never bothered keeping up with Valvano’s record versus Dean…so why would I keep up with Sendek’s versus UNC/Duke?

To me, the most damning evidence on the Sendek era starts with the fact that big-time college basketball is a national game played out on a national stage. Yes State competes with the other two schools in the Triangle. But so does every other school that aspires to compete for a national championship.

The NCAAT crowns exactly one national champion each year. However, there a number of lesser milestones that are coveted each year…Final Fours, Elite Eights, Sweet 16’s, Regular Season championships, and Conference Tournament championships. So what bothered me the most (other than the Herb Sendek Sunshine Squad) about the Sendek era?

10 years, $10 million dollars, and 1 Sweet 16.

SIDE RANT:  Why has someone never told UConn, Georgetown, Ohio State, etc that they shouldn’t try and compete with Duke/UNC? Maybe Tom Izzo, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino, et al should just retire or take a leave of absence for a few more years. The sheer stupidity displayed in the national media recently (as well as during the last coaching search) just boggles the mind.

If you look at that list of milestones to strive for, they all have one thing in common….YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY BEAT GOOD TEAMS TO ACHIEVE THEM. (Don’t quibble about the S-16.)

This is where the unhappiness with Sendek really started. Herb always struggled against any team that could be considered good. Did you know that during the only five years that the HSSS squad remembers (which now apparently includes the national media), that he never had a winning record versus the RPI Top 50? Now much like Featherston’s article, we need to put that into perspective with other schools in the ACC:

 

Before we go any further, we need to set the proper perspective for this table. The years examined are arbitrary for every team/coach except for Herb. THESE WERE HERB’S BEST YEARS AT STATE (and so far, for his entire career). The story only gets worse when you expand the context of any comparison.

As you might suspect from this table, Herb struggled with far more than just UNC and Duke. Here is Herb’s head-to-head record against the ACC coaches that took at least one team to the NCAAT during his magical five-year run:

 

No matter how many times we refute it, some people will forever-more incorrectly claim that State fans shouldn’t expect to compete with UNC and Duke. If that argument is used in your presence, especially in conjunction with Sendek, ask them if it’s OK to want a coach that can compete with WF, UMD, and BC?

Here’s one last table that summarizes Herb’s futility against decent competition:

 

Even Herb’s whipping boy, Paul Hewitt, manages to pass up Herb here. Just in case anyone wants to bring up the specious claim that State was still improving under Herb, here’s one last table:

 

The last table helps illustrate my feeling of utter hopelessness that I felt in the spring of 2006.   This was supposed to have been Herb’s year with a combination of returning experienced players and personnel losses at other schools.   But the season  ended with State simply extending the plateau by losing five of the last six games (including two games to last place WF) to go along with a blow-out home loss to UNC. 2007 was going to be much worse with a depleted line-up and 2008 was only going to be as good as freshman PG Chris Wright (assuming that he followed through with his verbal) turned out to be.   

The present was bleak and the future looked even worse.  In a strange twist of irony, the seasons since 2006 turned out to be worse than I ever imagined.   However, I have never wished for a single moment that Sendek had stayed at State.

 

CONCLUSION

Scott Fowler (Charlotte Observer) perfectly summarized the Sendek era at State after his departure to the desert in 2006:

Sendek won bunches of C-level games and a good many B-level ones, but you could count the A-plus wins he had on one hand.

This conclusion is so obvious, that I’m absolutely amazed we are even having this conversation five years later. But of course too many in the national media believe that only certain programs should actually expect to have any A-plus wins. Let me extend my thanks to Al Featherston and Brett Friedlander for speaking out against that type of ignorance.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

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30 Responses to My Response to Stupidity

  1. Sw0rdf1sh 02/14/2011 at 9:19 AM #

    Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! Somebody send this link to that hack Parrish.

  2. BassPacker 02/14/2011 at 9:22 AM #

    All these stats are good but it appears the only one who really looks (understands importance) with them are Pack Fans. Maybe the only really telling stat on Sendek for the basketball world is his current year five at ASU. Early wins over cupcake teams. Big loses against conference foes. Since entering Pac 10 Conference play, Sendek is 2-11. Instead of Durham/Chapel Hill, its Tucson/Palo Alto. Same results, different conference. Only difference perhaps is that ASU fans don’t have any tradition or past championship revelance to care. And the Seth Davis’ of the world ignore it for the easy shot at NCSU.

  3. LRM 02/14/2011 at 9:31 AM #

    Reliable as always, Va. Nice job putting all that greatness into perspective.

  4. Prowling Woofie 02/14/2011 at 10:09 AM #

    Nice job, VaWolf – great stats backing up what we all knew in our hearts !

    As much as I appreciated what Herb did for us in bringing back some life to the program, I find myself pulling against his ASU teams now, all due to the MSM hacks like Davis and Parrish. Sparky lost to Sean’s boys again last night, dropping to 1-11 in the mighty PAC 10… Awesome !

  5. Wufpacker 02/14/2011 at 10:14 AM #

    The ’04 edition of the Herbivores (Herb’s only decent argument against him never fielding a decent team) wasn’t as good as I even thought they were, apparently.

    A number 3 seed and a Sagarin rating of 16, I really thought they were a pretty good team despite what happened in the 2nd round of the tournament that year. But now I see that we were still only .500 against the RPI top 50 that year. Not sure if I had known that previously and forgot, or if I just never knew. Either way, it’s not surprising.

    The other thing I either forgot or never knew, was Paul Hewitt’s 3-7 record against Herb from ’02 thru ’06. It seems that should have been enough to get the man canned long before now. I mean, if you’re dropping 7 of 10 to Herb’s teams, then your long term viability in the coaching profession isn’t likely.

    Of course, as just about all of the statistics related entries having to do with Herb have always shown, he used creative cupcake scheduling as his “smoke and mirrors” to achieve at least 3 of those 5 NCAA tournament bids, and only once were we “playing for seeding” down the home stretch.

  6. Daily Update 02/14/2011 at 10:27 AM #

    Great charts Vawolf.

  7. VaWolf82 02/14/2011 at 10:32 AM #

    It bears mentioning that Sendek was not the problem. I have no reason to think anything other than he was trying his best to recruit good players and to win as many games as possible. The problems come from:
    – People who don’t think that State should try and compete for championships.
    – People who think that Sendek’s results are all that could ever be achieved at State.
    – People who think that State fans should have been happy with Sendek.
    – Media idiots that repeat these tired claims FIVE YEARS after Sendek left.
    – A school adminstration steeped in cronyism and incompetence.
    – An athletic director that asks for millions of dollars in donations, but never manages his dept to produce championships.
    – An athletic director that ran the most incompetent coaching search that I have ever witnessed.

  8. LRM 02/14/2011 at 10:56 AM #

    Va,

    Considering he’s been unable to replicate it in Tempe, is it fair to also suggest that his wild success during 2002-06 was as much a function of the resources provided him as his pure coaching ability?

  9. GoldenChain 02/14/2011 at 11:05 AM #

    “This conclusion is so obvious, that I’m absolutely amazed we are even having this conversation five years later.”

    I’m not. Human nature is to kick the crap outta ya when you’re curled up on the ground and can’t fight back.
    It’s a bandwagon, “me-too” mentality.

    Like I’ve said for the 5+ years I’ve been on here, the negative press goes away when you refute it by winning.
    So far we ca’t do that, so the kicks keep coming.

  10. 87GloryDays 02/14/2011 at 11:24 AM #

    Hearing this same crap from the media as well as the Walmart UNC fans is getting old. I watched the ASU game last night and read the reviews in the AZ Republic, as well as made a post. Here it is :

    pridman Feb-14 @ 8:03 AM Delete | Reply01
    The ASU fans should get used to last night and many more to come under the Herb Sendek/Sean Miller era’s at the respective schools. As an NC State grad ( whose best friend is an ASU grad) I have seen this story more than once. The way Herb runs his program, combined with ASU’s lack of history, fan support, and facilities will always prevent him from competing with big time rivals and being more than mediocre, which is a shame.

    Herb is a very smart guy with a great basketball pedigree, but the direction he has taken his coaching philosophy is absolutely baffling. Think of the fact that he was on staffs with Rick Pitino, Bill Self, Tubby Smith, Billy Donovan, Thad Matta, and Sean Miller. All of these coaches run up tempo systems with pressure defense, pressing, ball movement offenses, that attract major athletic recruits that want to play in those type of systems. For some unknown reason, Herb is the only coach out of that bunch that fell in love with the Princeton offense and passive zone defense. He basically passes it around the perimeter and chucks up a 3 pointer. There is not a top flight recruit with NBA aspirations that wants to play in that system. It did not work at State and will not work at ASU. Herb hired a high school coach at State to get a player, just like he did to get Harden, but that is a one shot deal. He will not be able to match Miller in recruiting due to his system and inability to get his players consistantly to the NBA. Which is why ASU should get used to the beatdowns by the Cats.

    Also per ASUFB30uafb29’s, comment that ” we could have Sidney Lowe”, is quite comical since everyone assumes that Herb is a far superior coach. I will preface this by saying that I think Lowe is the worst coach in the ACC and will be fired at the end of the year. But somehow Herb has been made to be this great coaching genius that is just not true. Chew on these FACTS:

    Herbs 1st 5 yrs at NC State – 86-74 overall 54 % 26-54 ACC 33 %
    Lowes 1st 5 yrs at NC State – 84-73 overall 54 % 23-51 ACC 31 %
    Herbs 1st 5 yrs at ASU – 85-70 overall 55 % 35-49 PAC 42 %

    The facts do not lie and they both are less than mediocre coaches. Sean Miller can coach circles around both of them ( and will around Herb and ASU as long as he is there)

    The reason I put this post in is that not only are Lowe’s and Herb’s records almost identical their 1st 5 yrs at State, but Sidney may actually end up with a better overall record these last 5 yrs. ASU has lost 10 of the last 11 and I do not think they will win again this year.If that happens and Sidney goes .500 the rest of the year that would put Sidney at 87-76 at State and Herb at 85-76 at ASU. Comparing the 1st 5 years of any tenure is the only fair way to make a comparison, and the facts don’t lie.

    Can any of these national media guys explain which of these coaches is the bad one and which is the genius ? Pot ? Kettle ?

  11. VaWolf82 02/14/2011 at 11:39 AM #

    Considering he’s been unable to replicate it in Tempe, is it fair to also suggest that his wild success during 2002-06 was as much a function of the resources provided him as his pure coaching ability?

    I don’t know but I will say that Sendek’s results at ASU have not surprised me.

    The only way to prove your supposition is for a coach to have more success at State than at his previous job. (Like Roy and the move from Kansas to UNC.) However, the converse would not prove anything since the ACC has chewed up coaches for years that had success at their previous jobs and couldn’t translate that to wins in the ACC (like Pete Gillen).

  12. Lumpy 02/14/2011 at 11:46 AM #

    You know, it’s not only that Herb lost to good teams, but the way that he lost to them. Just unbelievable beatdowns and huge leads given up. I always wonder what huge wins do the guys who write this crap remember from Herb Sendek. What was the game that made you say, “This guy’s on the way up.” Chances are they just look at his 5 tourney appearances and assume he was a top 25 coach. He wasn’t.
    Because if you watched his career, it’s more likely you remember the Vandy game, the ’06 UNC at RBC, The Duke game in the ACC finals in ’03. Herb usually wilted on the big stage, and in those rare times they’d pull out a big win like they did against Uconn to get to that all important Sweet 16? They shoot 22% in the second half against Wisconsin to bow out of the tournament.
    If you must reply to one of these hacks like Parrish, just ask who should we expect to compete with? I’m not gonna email them, but if you do I am curious to hear their answer.

  13. gotncstate 02/14/2011 at 11:46 AM #

    Damn you guys are g-r-e-a-t! This site does better work than professionally paid journalists/sports writers. Like StateFans stated in his -Seth Davis & SFN address NC State fans-

    “Only in this weird world of the ‘media’ do people with so little real world analytical experience and professional credibility get to have their opinions ‘mean’ so much. It is that power that just adds to the disappointment that those with the loudest megaphones wouldn’t try harder to more deeply understand issues on which they opine.”

  14. NOT A FAN OF BLUE 02/14/2011 at 12:10 PM #

    In the mid-80s, I recall seeing a list of the top NCAA basketball programs. STATE ranked #13 (all-time). Talk about proud. Oh how times have changed … first Les, then Herb, now Sid(ney). Either we should stay away from post-Valvano era coaches with one syllable names or we should make d*mn certain that the leader of the PACK is not only capable, but worthy of the title.

  15. ncsu96 02/14/2011 at 1:04 PM #

    nice work, vawolf.

    so in summary, we only finished 1 out of 10 years ranked in RPI top 25. I suspect also true of the AP polls.

    None of this is surprising to us, but that’s a stat that should shutup all the media revisionists.

  16. tjfoose1 02/14/2011 at 1:11 PM #

    Nice, very nice job.

  17. FuquayWolf 02/14/2011 at 1:33 PM #

    [quote] so in summary, we only finished 1 out of 10 years ranked in RPI top 25. I suspect also true of the AP polls.

    None of this is surprising to us, but that’s a stat that should shutup all the media revisionists. [/quote]

    But you’re missing the key point of all the national media hacks – we are NC State; so we’re not supposed to finish in the top-25 of the RPI or the polls or whatever. We’re just little old NC State, one of only 7 schools to ever win 2 national championships with 2 different coaches. Why would we ever be expected to be a top-25 team?

    Great work as usual VaWolf82. Unfortunately, I feel like all of the statistical analysis State fans produce to support our contention that we should want more than what we’ve gotten the last 20 years is summarily dismissed by the media without a second look. They dismiss it because they don’t care about history and in the last 20 years, we haven’t been a top-25 team. Therefore, we should never get to be a top-25 team again. We should just be satisfied with making the NCAA and getting a Sweet 16 once every so often.

  18. Daily Update 02/14/2011 at 2:09 PM #

    ^And at the same time, they ignore Herb Sendek’s actual results at Arizona St. Not a single story this year about his struggles at ASU.

  19. wufpup76 02/14/2011 at 2:18 PM #

    Nice work.

  20. Alpha Wolf 02/14/2011 at 2:18 PM #

    Little ole NC State is not Little Ole NC State.

    It is the largest university in the tenth largest state in the nation.

    It has a record of producing excellence in the classroom, and many who have learned there have gone on to do great things that shape history. That said, it is not unreasonable to expect the athletic performance on the field, court, pool or pitch to mirror the accomplishments and values of the school.

    That is not a Pollyanna viewpoint, it is a stone cold fact. There’s no reason why NC State should settle for less. There’s every reason why it should demand more.

    Anyone who accepts consistent failure is a loser, and I don’t know too many losers who have degrees from NC State University.

  21. mwcric 02/14/2011 at 2:55 PM #

    In spite of 20 years of spinning the wheels, NCSU is still in the top 25 all-time in college basketball wins. The only other ACC teams on that list are UNC and Duke.

    I got so frustrated with the idiotic national commentary that I put together an essay myself, but I have nowhere to put it. LOL In it, I alluded to the same thing Lumpy said further up in the comments:

    And then, for me at least, there are some very specific instances that caused me to lose hope:
    • Nov. 12, 1997 – Putting up 36 points in a loss to Princeton at the Meadowlands
    • March 6, 1998 – Getting pummeled by 27 by UNC in the first round of the ACC tournament after beating the Heels by 16 two weeks earlier.
    • The 1998-99 season – losing 9 of 14 games by 11 points or more, including a 20-point loss at Duke, a 46-point loss at Maryland and a 29-point loss at Wake Forest.
    • March 15, 1999 – Concluding the 1999 season with another loss to Princeton, at home, in the NIT.
    • The 1999-2000 season – Starting the season 15-4 before ending it 5-10.
    • Jan. 27, 2000 – Bringing a respectable 4-2 conference record to Littlejohn Coliseum, including a win over 12th-ranked Maryland and close losses at 14th-ranked UNC and 5th-ranked Duke… and then proceeding to shoot 37 percent and turn the ball over on 29 percent of possessions to get waxed by 17 by Clemson, who was 6-12 heading into the game.
    • Feb. 6, 2000 – Still 5-3 heading to College Park for a chance to sweep 25th-ranked Maryland. State went into the half up 12; then Damon Thornton got a technical foul, the Pack gave up 49 second-half points while getting outscored by 17, lost the game and thus began a seven-game losing streak and eight losses in 10 games (including another loss to Maryland in the ACC Tournament).
    • March 28-30, 2000 – Feeling some part of the season was salvaged with at least a trip to the NIT semifinals…but then losing to Wake in the semis and Penn State in the third-place game.
    • Nov. 18, 22, 2000 – Losses of 17 points against Charlotte in Reynolds Coliseum and 19 points against Fresno State in the RBC. State doesn’t put together any back-to-back wins after Dec. 22 and Dec. 30.
    • Feb. 3, 2001 – I distinctly remember being on a weekend golf outing in Myrtle Beach and watching this game. State had a good lead, was playing well, and my non-State fan friends couldn’t understand my lack of excitement, since the Wolfpack was leading the 12th-ranked team in the nation by nine at the half. I proceeded to diagram the Pack’s collapse and they were slack-jawed as everything I said actually happened moments later. State loses 54-53.
    • Feb. 20, 2001 – Horrendous 29-point loss at Maryland wherein the team essentially screams at the world that it doesn’t care. Pack finishes 13-16, a tremendous setback after four years of incremental baby steps forward.
    • 2001-02 season – State begins 16-4, finishes 7-7, including a 30-point drubbing by no. 3 Duke in the ACC Championship after a dramatic win over 2nd-ranked Maryland in the semis. Sendek’s first trip to the NCAA tournament, with a quality win over Michigan State and an oh-so-close loss to Connecticut.
    • March 17, 2002 – Pack’s down one to UConn with 47 seconds left and Julius Hodge gets screwed on a terrible foul call on a desperation Caron Butler heave from 3-point land as the shot clock expires (depending on who you ask, the clock had already expired, making the debate over the foul call irrelevant). State loses by 3, but it’s difficult to be angry at anyone but the refs, and hope springs anew.
    • 2002-03 season – If the critics are right there should be nothing to complain about, as State knocks off UNC and Duke back to back on Jan. 22 and Jan. 26. Then they only lose by 11 at 8th-ranked Duke and beat UNC again. But the season stalls and starts: 5 wins, loss, 2 wins, loss, win, 2 losses, 3 wins, loss, win, 2 losses, win, loss, win, loss, win, loss, win, loss. The Pack concludes the regular season a pedestrian 16-11 and probably out of NCAA contention. UNTIL…
    • March 16, 2003 – State knocks off 9th-ranked Wake Forest to earn a trip to the ACC finals for a third time under Sendek, this time to face 12th-ranked Duke. State builds a 15-point lead with 10 minutes to play and then proceeds to put together an immense choke, letting J.J. Redick – a freshman – score 23 of his 30 points in the final 10 minutes. State loses 84-77 and critics don’t understand that the way the game was lost was every bit as bad as the fact that it was to Duke. Had the loss been to Florida State it still would’ve been infuriating – maybe moreso.
    • March 20, 2003 – NCSU can’t recover, and loses to Cal in OT in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. This really is the beginning of the end, for me anyway.
    • March 3, 2004 – State, ranked 16th, looks like it may be on the way to its first 20-win regular season in forever, as they face Maryland on senior day. The Pack proceeds to fall behind by 17 points in the first half before closing to 10 at halftime. They come back to lead 60-59 with 9 minutes to play but end up losing 70-69, relegating the season to 19 wins.
    • March 13, 2004 – 10 days later State builds a 19-point halftime lead and leads by as many as 21 on this same Maryland team in the ACC Tournament semifinals, but never leads after the 8-minute mark of the second half and loses by three.
    • March 21, 2004 – State leads Vanderbilt by 11 points with 3:30 to play in a very winnable second-round NCAA Tournament game. The Pack manages to get outscored 19-6 in only 3:26 to blow the game.
    • Dec. 30, 2004 – State’s best start in a long, long time, 10-1, is impressive, and it looks like it can be built on as the Pack heads to Madison Square Garden to take on a bad St. John’s team on Julius Hodge’s senior trip back to his hometown. State scores 10 first-half points and shoots 20 percent for the game as they lose by 18. This was to a team that finished the season 8-19. State loses nine of their next 12. The 10-1 start leads to a 17-12 regular season finish.
    • March 2005 – Nevertheless, State goes 2-1 in the ACC Tournament, including an easy win over 3rd-ranked Wake Forest that made up for a very contentious loss five days earlier. That’s enough to get the Pack into the NCAA Tournament, where they down in-state rival Charlotte, and get sweet revenge on 13th-ranked Connecticut for their first Sweet Sixteen appearance since what, 1986? A little hope creeps back up.
    • March 25, 2005 – NC State leads or is tied with Wisconsin from about 15 minutes in the first half until about 11:30 to go in the game. But they go nearly five minutes without a bucket while the Badgers build a 10-point advantage. State is outscored 34-19 over the last 13:14 of the game and blows a chance to face UNC in the Elite Eight. No one is surprised.
    • Feb. 22, 2006 – NC State is an unthinkable 21-5 heading into a home game with 21st-ranked UNC (though granted the five losses are by an average of 10 points each). Maybe the breakthrough season is finally here! Maybe State will build on the bitterSweet Sixteen experience from the previous year! Nope. The Pack gets their worst whuppin’ of the year, losing by 24. That’s the first of four losses and five losses in six games. That includes back-to-back losses, in six days, to Wake Forest – the ACC’s last-place team. One of those losses bounces the Pack in the first round of the ACC Tournament, so 21-5 became 22-10 and a first-round conference tourney loss to the lowest-seeded team. State wins an almost incidental game with Cal in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, but nobody even cares when they get shellacked by Texas in round two.

  22. packof81 02/14/2011 at 5:39 PM #

    NOT A FAN OF BLUE said, “In the mid-80s, I recall seeing a list of the top NCAA basketball programs. STATE ranked #13 (all-time). Talk about proud.”

    Well, you can still be proud. Only 14 different teams have won more than one NCAA championship.

  23. 61Packer 02/14/2011 at 8:05 PM #

    mwcric said just about everything I was going to say. But I will add that Scott Fowler should list the good many B-level wins he thinks HWSNBN had at State. Other than the wins over Duke and Maryland in the ACC Tourney in year #1, and the 2004 NCAAT win over Connecticut, what else was there to cheer about except for the coach’s departure to Tempe?

  24. Lock 02/15/2011 at 10:05 AM #

    “I’m absolutely amazed we are even having this conversation five years later.”
    Hear, hear. Both for the national media and this blog. That said, this is one of the few reasonable, analytical, and all-around well-written entries on this subject.

    Yes, Sendek had to go. But I’m still trying to figure out why the hate so many seem to have towards him on this blog is so personal. Hate the media for misrepresenting us, hate not living up to standards, but don’t hate the man himself.

    Why don’t people hate Les Robinson the way they do Sendek? Rhetorical question. I’m pretty sure the hate, for those that do hate him, has gone beyond logic at this point.

  25. VaWolf82 02/15/2011 at 10:25 AM #

    I don’t hate Sendek and I doubt that there are very many State fans that do. What we do hate is seeing Sendek’s record and/or State’s history distorted so that State fans can be:
    – lied about;
    – called unreasonable; and
    – told what are expectations should be.

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