Et tu, FSU?; “The Seminole Effect”

NC State’s embarrassing performance against (10-9) Florida State last week may have sealed the fate of NC State’s under-whelming regular basketball season. Now that the Wolfpack sits at a 3-4 in the conference (with a series of games against superior competition ahead) the opportunity for a regular season remotely consistent with pre-season expectations seems to have passed.

For embattled NC State Head Basketball Coach Herb Sendek and his dwindling supporters, Florida State’s defeat of the Wolfpack may represent more than just another loss in ACC play…the loss also represents the ultimate betrayal from one of Sendek’s staunchest supporters – the Florida State University Basketball Program. (please cue the melo-dramatic, ominous, “du-du-duuunnnnggg” music)

For years, the Seminoles have joined State’s Athletics Director Lee Fowler as Herb Sendek’s two most effective supporters – Fowler by fighting hard for Sendek, and FSU by not fighting very hard against him.

Entering his 9th season at NC State, Herb Sendek had compiled a 12-4 regular season record against Florida State en route to compiling an overall record of 55-73 in Atlantic Coast Conference play. That means that prior to this season:

* 22% of all of Sendek’s ACC regular season wins have come from only one team – Florida State

* Sendek has won 75% of his regular season games against FSU while winning only 43% of his games against the ACC

* Herb Sendek is 43-69 in ACC games against teams not named Florida State.

* Herb Sendek has a 39% winning percentage in ACC games against teams not named Florida State.

The “V-Adjusted Record”
Florida State’s recent betrayal of Coach Sendek not only added another “L” to the coach’s already substandard record, it also served to betray one of the favorite ‘positions’ of a faction of Wolfpackers (affectionately referred to as HSSSers) in the current “Great Debate at State”.

While succeeding to degrade NC State’s rich basketball tradition in attempts to rationalize heir guy’s long-term failures, many HSSSers often recall that Jim Valvano often shared publicly that he believed that an ACC team only needed to achieve .500 record in the ACC to earn an NCAA berth. “In fact,” state many HSSSers, “V’s ACC regular season record was only 71-69 in ten years at State. See! That proves that we really don’t have that much of a tradition and that anyone who expects Sendek to be better than .500 doesn’t have realistic expectations.” (as if Herb Sendek is within smelling distance of anything remotely close to a .500 record in ACC play?)

More than a little ironic is that the HSSSers always omit the beginning of Valvano’s statement that went something like – “if an ACC team schedules and performs well out of the conference….then achieving a .500 record should be enough to get them into the NCAA Tournament.” But alas, I could dissect the nuances and inconsistencies with this position for days as the sheer number of problems created by evoking Coach Valvano’s name in this manner are far too many to tackle today. (If you would like to weigh in on the topic, please click on the hotlink for Comments below this entry and leave your thoughts).

Ultimately, one cannot mathematically adjust for all of the intangible differences between competing in the ACC in its greatest decade of the 1980s. Nor can one rationally attempt to figure out what the “point” is when you consider that:
* Valvano won the 3rd most amount of games of any school in the ACC in the 1980s while Sendek has managed to win the 6th most amount of ACC games since his arrival
* Valvano won more ACC Championships in the 80s than all but one school while Sendek is still searching for his first title after eight years. (Valvano had won 2 by now)

But, one CAN mathematically adjust for one of the most glaring differences between the Sendek and Valvano eras – Florida State University.

In their desperation to identify ANYTHING that they feel can connect Coach Sendek with the more successful coaches of the last 60 years of NC State Basketball (since Everett Case arrived at NC State 59 years ago, every every coach in Wolfpack history has achieved more success than Herb Sendek except Les Robinson), the HSSSers conveniently ignore the magnitude of the positive benefit that Florida State has provided the modern day ACC.

So, the next time some idiot fan blasphemes NC State by uttering the name Herb Sendek and Jim Valvano in the same paragraph as a justification for Sendek’s weak ACC record, feel free to refer/link them to the following normalization exercise so that they won’t hurt themselves thinking through it:

V-Adjusted Record Win Loss %
Sendek ACC Record 55 73 43%
(-) minus FSU (12) (4) 75%
V-Adj Sendek Record 43 69 38%

Or, you can choose to look at it from the opposite way

Sendek-Adjusted V Record Win Loss %
V ACC Record 71 69 51%
(+) minus FSU* 15* 5* 75%
Sendek-Adj V Record 86 74 54%

* Assumption- Jim Valvano was 71-69 in ten years of ACC competition against teams who were not FSU; Herb Sendek is 43-69 in ACC games against teams not named FSU. It would be justified to apply an assumed winning percentage to V’s record to account for FSU that is far greater than Sendek’s achieved record. Despite this, Sendek’s actual 75% winning percentage was used to generate the most conservative adjustment possible.

Imagine the inconsistency in comparing records from different eras now that perennial patsies Miami and Virginia Tech have joined the conference? In another couple of decades of trying, Sendek might FINALLY be inching towards that “magical” .500 winning percentage that some Wolfpackers sadistically crave all because a legendary coach, who competed in a completely different era, against a completely different conference, and who employed a completely different out of conference scheduling philosophy mentioned it over 20 years ago.

Additional Note: We would welcome your thoughts on this topic so that we can build an archived link that will exist in perpetuity. If you would like to share any thoughts, please click on the Comments URL just below this entry. All comments have to be approved for viewing on the site (to avoid spammers and poor form), so do not be alarmed if your comment is not immediately viewable. We hope to create a nice conversation so that it can be saved an archived long into the future. Thank You.

General NCS Basketball

12 Responses to Et tu, FSU?; “The Seminole Effect”

  1. Trout 02/01/2005 at 11:14 AM #

    Not one of your better articles, IMO.

  2. JB34 02/01/2005 at 11:39 AM #

    I agree. It got a little wordy.

    I wanted to show the significant delineation between Sendek’s performance against two halves of the conference but I didn’t have time after I used so many words.

    If you look compare Sendek’s performance against

    FSU/Clemson/GT/UVa with the performance against UNC/Wake/Duke/Maryland

    then the numbers are staggering.

    More on that later.

  3. Packwx 02/01/2005 at 12:02 PM #

    That would be an interesting comparison, and I’m sure the numbers aren’t pretty. It always seemed that our ACC “success” in the past was bulit mainly on beating up on the bottom-feeders (when we managed to get out of that group), and very rarely beating the Duke/UNC/Maryland/Wake crowd.

    On another note, I really enjoy the site JB, its a great place to come and get well-reasoned thoughts and facts!

  4. Col Bat 02/01/2005 at 12:31 PM #

    JB34:

    You make some good points, but your piece comparing V. and Sendek looks through a confusing prism. Comparing the coaches with so much emphasis the insignificant FSU series (and regular seasons in general) is sort of a confusing red herring (why not the GT series?). V had a surprisingly weak record against ACC teams. But V’s tenure is not remembered for regular seasons. V’s 1 NC, 2 ACC titles (3 if you count 1989’s regular season title), 2 other final 8s, and at least 1 other sweet 16 are considered his major accomplishments (obviously).

    I’ve always thought that people who bring up V’s regular season record miss the point because had V not had wild success in the postseason, he would be remembered as a mediocre coach rather than god-like.

  5. JB34 02/01/2005 at 12:41 PM #

    * I’d like to focus on Col’s comment – “V had a surprisingly weak record against ACC teams.”

    That is one of the “intangible points” that I would like to note…and I will start with the question of, “did he really have a surprisingly weak record against ACC teams?”

    I think that it picture takes on a different meaning when you consider that the conference did not include a Florida State (or VPI, or Miami) and did include:

    Coach K @ Duke
    Dean Smith @ Carolina
    Valvano @ State
    Carl Tacy @ Wake
    Lefty @ Maryland
    Cremmins @ Georgia Tech
    and Terry Holland @ UVA (who was the 2nd winningest program of the decade!!!)

    Tangibly, I think that many people forget who amazing the ACC was in the 1980s while also forgetting one key stat — V achieved an identical ACC record as Coach K in the ACC in the 1980s while winning more games than anyone in the conference except for Dean Smith and Terry Holland’s heavily weighted Ralph Sampson days.

    In light of this…did he really have a surprisingly weak record against ACC teams?

    * I think most people of the era would agree that V basically “managed” the regular season to prepare for Tournament play. He placed significant amounts of importance on all tournament play (as do many) and used the regular seasons to prepare for it.

  6. BJD95 02/01/2005 at 1:27 PM #

    At first, I was going to note that Wake Forest is much stronger than in the 1980s. But then I remembered that UVA is also much weaker, so it balances things out.

    Agree that the most compelling (and logically infallible) argument against Sendek in comparison to V is that V accomplished great things in the post-season. Two ACC titles, four total Sweet 16s, three total Elite 8s, and one national title. When you do that, who really cares about the regular season?

    What really galls me about the fervent HSSS (thanks for using my favorite acronym, BTW) members is when they (1) defend Sendek by saying he basically played to seed in the tourney; and (2) Justify “just making it” into the NCAA, since that’s all we asked of V. They are just cherry picking to argue a pre-conceived notion, without explicitly pointing to injury or “bad luck” excuses.

  7. David 02/01/2005 at 3:24 PM #

    I don’t offer this in defense of Sendek, but your comparison of the leagues is a bit suspect. Wake was generally an automatic “W.” Clemson was up and down but mostly down, and Maryland, after Lefty and on probation, actually had some WINLESS seasons. In 1989 Maryland was 1-13 (and then beat the Pack in the opening round of the tournament). Wake was 3-11 that year. Maryland, Clemson, Virginia, and Wake were all under .500 in 1988. Maryland was 0-14 in 87, Wake 2-12. Wake was 0-14 in 86, Clemson was 3-11. Virginia was 3-11 in 85. Clemson was 3-11 in 84. Ga. Tech, Duke, and Clemson posted double-digit losses in 83 and 82. Tech = 0-14 in 81. Tech = 1-13 in 80.

    You forget how pathetic some of the teams were in the 80’s, especially the Rambling Wreck upon first joining the conference, Maryland at the end of the decade in the Bob Wade years, and Wake and Clemson pretty much throughout. Va. Tech and Miami may eventually prove to make it easier to go .500 in the league, but Fla. State has not always been an easy out. They have had more success in spurts than some teams did in the entire decade of the 80’s. Remember, the Noles finished second in 1992 and 1993! When did Wake, Maryland, or Tech have that kind of back-to-back season success in the 80’s?

    But alas, the hope should not be .500 — it should be championships and your point is well taken that championships seem pretty unlikely as long as Herb’s at the helm.

  8. JB34 02/01/2005 at 4:33 PM #

    Very good and very fair points all around. Much appreciated comments.

    I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t recognize that patsies existed in the 1980s. Heck, nobody understands the ebbs and flows of programs statures better than us…WE’re the patsy of the 1990s!!!

    My primary purpose of the exercise was NOT to demean Herb Sendek’s performance as much as it was to provide some more clear data-points in the ongoing referencing of historical records in erroneous “comparisons” that many fans continue to do.

    And, I understand that the mathematical adjustment is not (cannot) be “totally pure”. But, no adjustment can be pure.

    I think that my broad point remains relatively well in tact:

    (1) Sendek gets to play more games each year than we played in each of the first 40 years of the ACC, providing him more opportunities for wins and losses.

    (2) Sendek’s additional games are played against one of the weaker (historical) programs in the conference/country and therefore provide a larger opportunity for wins than had we added a stronger basketball program.

    All else being equal, the addition of FSU created a situation where we should win more games than we won historically because they had never consistently been able to win at a clip anywhere close to the rest of the ACC.

    Ignoring all of the natural ebbs and flows of ALL of the other ACC schools that happen through the years…FSU’s addition should/and did create a “tack-on” situation where we should win more of out games against them than we should some other programs. The fans that I am directing my comments to (who always harken to V’s “goal” of .500 in the ACC) completely fail to account for the lack of stature of the team that we added the mix and therefore generally diluted the difficulty to reach .500

    Conversely…for sake of example…what if the conference had added Kentucky instead of Florida State? I swear that we would have a contingent of fans who would just give up and change their “annual goal” from 8-8 to 6-10 because there is “no way that we should be expected to try to beat Kentucky.”

  9. Cardiac95 02/02/2005 at 12:08 AM #

    In the history of the ACC, Herb Sendek ranks 16th in ACC Reg Season record among the 22 coaches that completed at least 8 seasons in the league. With ONE Exception (#15 Jeff Jones), all the coaches ranked above Sendek have won at least one ACC Tournament Title.

    Of course Jones was fired after season 8 by UVA.

  10. JB34 02/02/2005 at 10:42 PM #

    (1) ^that statistic is utterly amazing. And, I can promise you that you will see it a lot more around here in the near future. Cardiac, I hope that you will share more in the future.

    (2) I could not go another second without sharing this thread from Pack Pride. It is utterly classic being that it literally started on the day that I posted this original post regardin FSU’s un-adjusted impact on the discussions across different historical eras in the ACC.

    In the middle of a thread about the history of NC State Basketball, this guy just chimes in with the classic:

    Look at Valvanos conference record. It is barely above 500

    I couldn’t have begged for it any harder!!!

    Better yet…after I linked up this article and thanked the poster for their cooperation, their original post disappeared!!

  11. Cardiac95 02/03/2005 at 11:56 AM #

    Another frightening stat from Tudor’s article this AM…

    “…the Pack lost 10 or more games for the 15th straight year.”

    That stat cuts through all the inflation our Total Wins & Win Percentage gets from a steady diet of Cupcakes in our OOC Schedule.

    Single Digit Losses on a season would have to be considered the sign of an elite team. V did it twice in 10 seasons (and had exactly 10 in 3 other seasons) Sloan did it 6 times in 14 seasons (and had exactly 10 in 4 other seasons). I would look back at Case’s stats in this category, but the total number of games in a season was sometimes under 20. Amazing how standards have shifted.

  12. Mark Cramer 02/11/2005 at 12:54 AM #

    I’m a writer by trade and former sports journalist, and I’ve written a critique of the Sendek years you may find interesting – including stats & numbers. It’s pretty long (about 3,500 words) so I didn’t want to blog it. Would love to give it to you guys to divy up & use as you see fit. Not seeking compensation or even credit; just interested in contributing to intelligent debate. If at all interested, please e-mail me. Keep up the good work, and try to hang in there. All we have to do now is win out plus one tourney win to go dancing! 🙁

Leave a Reply