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cry me a river Russell
He was asked about it in an interview. He made a passing reference to it and was pressed by the interviewer and gave an honest answer. What’s wrong with that?
Wilson announced he was gone
Link?
Wilson was #10 in passer rating and total offense in 2014. He was #6 in yards per completion and #7 in yards per attempt. He was #4 in interception percentage. He tied for the league lead with 5 game winning drives. He led the league in yards per carry.
He actually had better passing numbers in 2013, but Seattle let Tate walk last offseason, Sidney Rice retired, starting TE Zach Miller missed most of last season, and the team traded Harvin early in the season. So he was working with a pretty weak set of targets.
Consider a few impressive facts from his career to date:
1. Wilson’s career NFL record is 42-14 (regular and postseason). In the 2 seasons under Carroll before Wilson was drafted, Seattle was 14-18.
2. Seattle has only lost one game by more than 7 points with Wilson at QB — they lost 21-30 @SD earlier in 2014, with SD kicking a FG with 20 seconds remaining to get to that final margin. So the Seahawks have won 75% of their games with Wilson at QB, and they have been in every single game.
3. Wilson has already led 15 game winning drives in his career. So he has led a game winning drive more often than his team has lost with him at QB.
Obviously, Wilson is not the only reason for these facts. In particular, the defense has had a lot to do with #1 and #2. But this is still extremely impressive.
Wilson is the most overrated QB in the NFL.
I have to hand it to you. Every time I think you’ve peaked, you outdo yourself.
So…nobody disputes that Russell Wilson had NOT committed to play football until the summer before the 2011 season?
Tau — you ask “what changed” after we let him play baseball the previous three seasons?
I think the answer is pretty clear — what changed was Wilson’s commitment to come back to the football program and play quarterback the following fall.
I disagree this is clear. We don’t know what he told TOB or when. We don’t even know how much TOB asked/pressed him for a commitment. IMO TOB got what he wanted and used Wilson’s “lack of commitment” as cover for it.
We do know that TOB announced Wilson was released from his scholarship on April 29, 2011. Does that indicate that TOB waited as long as he could and tried everything he could to bring Wilson back? I don’t think so.
He was on campus at State (not getting paid) his first three years and he was committed to come back. In the spring of 2011 he was off campus making money in minor league ball
Wilson got drafted in June of 2010, and the Rockies paid him a $200K signing bonus, then he played 32 games in Class A. So he was “making money in minor league ball” in 2010, yet he came back and played QB for State in fall 2010, and played really well in doing it. You seem to be trying to emphasize that “playing minor league ball” or “making money” changed from 2010 to 2011, but it didn’t.
AND had NOT COMMITTED TO COME BACK TO SCHOOL.
Again….someone correct me if that fact is not true. But, the guy had not committed to even play football in 2011.
You are just repeating yourself. You already said this stuff earlier in the same post, as I addressed above.
You also seem to be KIND OF UPSET ABOUT IT.
How do you effectively kick Glennon off the team for the next TWO years for a guy that isn’t even committed to play?
That would be Glennon’s choice. TOB was chartered with making the best choice for the football program, and IMO he didn’t. Simple as that.
Russell was not tearing up the world at the time he departed the program. His most promising season was the tail-end of his freshman year, and a number of eggs were laid on the field during the next two years.
Wilson was 1st team All ACC as a redshirt freshman in 2008. He played well but a big part of that was lack of other strong candidates.
In 2009, he led the ACC in TD passes and was #4 in the nation in that category. He also completed an NCAA record streak of passes without an interception that dated back to his freshman season, and was 3rd in the ACC in passing efficiency. He also was 4th in passing yards in 2nd in total offense.
In 2010, he led the ACC in passing yards, total offense, and TD passes, while also finishing 7th in the conference with 9 rushing TDs (!).
Of course he wasn’t great in every game, but you are giving him way too little credit here.
In 2009, the team was 3-1 in games in which the defense allowed fewer than 30 points and 2-6 in games in which the defense allowed 30+. Not really Wilson’s fault. Similar story in 2010, when the team was 0-3 in games in which the defense allowed 30+ points and 9-1 in the other games.
For those who think somehow State’s season would have mirrored Wisky’s otherwise are the delusional ones here.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest State in 2011 would have “mirrored” Wisconsin’s 2011 season. I have suggested that State could have won the ACC with Wilson. State was 8-5 (4-4) in 2011 with Glennon starting, and Wilson was a better QB. Looking back at the game scores from that season, Wilson could have been the difference in the Wake and BC games, probably not in the Cincy and FSU games, which were blowouts. Could he have been the difference in the Georgia Tech game in addition to BC and Wake? If so, State would have been in the ACC championship game. No one can know for sure how it would have worked out, but it is possible State could have won the ACC with Wilson.
* Russell Wilson chose to play minor league baseball and did not participate in spring practice despite the coaches (reasonably) setting a parameter that whomever was going to be QB in the fall needed to be in spring practice and working out with the team in the summer.
The fundamental issue is that TOB changed the rules on Wilson. Wilson played for the N.C. State baseball team from 2008-2010 and played summer ball in at least 2009-2010, yet he was still the starting QB at State each of those years, and a damn good one at that.
In 2008, Wilson played baseball for State in the spring (64 game season), and he was State’s starting QB that fall and was 1st team All ACC.
In 2009, Wilson played baseball for State in the spring (56 game season) and summer ball for the Gastonia Grizzlies of the Coastal Plain League (seasons typically 27-30 games). He was State’s starting QB that fall and was one of the best QBs in the country..
In 2010, Wilson played baseball for State in the spring (62 game season) and played 32 games in Class A ball in the summer. He was State’s starting QB that fall and was one of the best QBs in the country.
In 2011, he played 61 games in Class A ball across spring and summer. He was Wisconsin’s starting QB that fall and was one of the best QBs in the country.
But, Wilson wanted to have his cake and eat it, too by playing minor league baseball while seemingly expecting the coaches (whose livelihood and income are based on their football performance, not Russell Wilson’s baseball career) to sit around and wait for him.
He expected them to do what they had done throughout his career at State to that point. How is that unreasonable?
If the coaches had ‘held the spot’ for Wilson, the set of options in front of us INCLUDED a highly probably situation where Wilson NEVER PLAYED FOOTBALL AGAIN AND MIKE GLENNON TRANSFERRED. How would that have sat with all the people who criticize the decision in hindsight?
I am one who criticized the decision at the time, not just in hindsight. Of course, it looks a lot worse in hindsight, I’ll grant you that.
With Wilson in 2011, State could have won the ACC. If that meant Glennon leaving and the team suffering at QB in 2012, so be it. It would have been well worth it.
You act like TOB was forced into the decision. I completely disagree. TOB had supposedly built the team up over time to be poised for top level success in 2011 and 2012. I think he arrogantly thought he didn’t need Wilson on the team any more to achieve top level success, in part because he had another Matt Ryan on the bench and in part because he supposedly had a loaded team. We all know how that turned out. Glennon was not Matt Ryan, and the team TOB had built didn’t live up to the hype. But it might have lived up to the hype in 2011 with Wilson under center.
It doesn’t impact the other top 20 type programs.
I think I have identified your problem. You are confusing our program with a top 20 type program. If we were a legit top 20 program, i.e., had finished in the top 20 for the past 5+ years, it would likely be quite a bit easier to get quality recruits to sign even when there are talented players like Cat, Lacey, Abu, or Anya playing their positions. Unfortunately, we aren’t there yet as a program.
I see HWSNBN v2 playing out, and I don’t like it.
I have no idea how someone who was a fan through the Herb era could think this is a legit comparison.
I felt like he was the best offensive big we had.
Many people seem to equate good range on his jump shot with being a good offensive player. His shot selection and, as a result, shooting percentage were poor. And he was the worst big we had at offensive rebounding and free throw rate. Those things are all important elements that help determine how good of an offensive player someone is. Top that off with being our worst defender among the bigs, and it’s not surprising at all that his playing time dwindled.
I wish he had stayed and improved in our program, but objectively it would have been hard for him to move up the depth chart barring injuries to others.
It seems to me that under Gott, those that are deserving of more PT get it, those that are not, don’t.
I agree with this.
Just off the top of my head:
I’m impressed that you knew all of those players and their heights off the top of your head. 😉
I don’t particularly think it matters to my point, though, since Anya has a bigger wingspan than every single player you listed. In basketball, it really doesn’t matter very much how high the top of your head is off the ground. Height matters because it is typically a big factor in determining how high a player can get off the floor in good position to either defend or score, and Anya has that in spades. Being able to convert on offense or defense must follow, and that will come down to how dedicated he is at getting and staying in shape and working at his craft. His raw tools are better than a lot of players you listed.
Anya… In the pros, he would not be a center
He will play center in the NBA, provided he gets himself in better shape. He has a center’s size and wingspan and doesn’t have the requisite quickness to play forward.
If he improves his weight and conditioning as much this offseason as last offseason, he could be a lottery pick next year. Perhaps that is a big if, but Howell, Vandenberg, and Warren all transformed their bodies under Gott, and I am expecting the same from Anya.
whatever is keeping players away is still keeping players away (and I NEVER believed that was PT)
Do you think Raymond transferred because he wanted more PT and didn’t expect he would get it at State?
Do you think Harris transferred because he wanted more PT and didn’t expect he would get it at State?
Do you think Lewis transferred because he wanted more PT and didn’t expect he would get it at State?
Do you think Washington is transferring because he wants more PT and doesn’t expect he will get it at State?IMO those four transfers were very clearly about PT. There may have been other issues, but IMO the driver was PT.
I think PT was a factor for TDT as well, but IIRC there may also have been some personality conflict(s).
If you don’t agree, what do you think these transfers were about?
The inability to recruit freshmen good enough that they could expect to earn some playing time is disconcerting.
Gott hasn’t shown an inability to do this. He signed Lewis with Lo Brown on the roster. He signed Cat with Brown and Lewis on the roster, before Lewis had been exposed as overmatched. He signed Warren with no clear starting role available to him. He signed the twins with no clear starting role available to them. He signed Abu with Anya, Freeman, and Washington all rising sophomores.
Recruiting for the 2015-16 class isn’t over.
I am not making up some term to improve my statistics.
Are you suggesting I made up the term ‘offseason’? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that used elsewhere.
Having said that, I think we’ve beaten this horse to death. You’ve made your point that you see attrition under Gott as a big concern. As of right now, I’m not concerned, because (a) I recognize this issue as being part of major college basketball today, at least for programs who recruit a lot of top 100 players, and (b) I expect Gott to bring in sufficient reinforcements.
If one or more additional players depart this offseason, I will be concerned. But for now, I suggest we agree to disagree.
11 players have left with eligibility reamaining. How many have left with none?
Howell
Turner
Lee
Alez Johnson
Did I miss any others?12 scholarship players have left the program with eligibility remaining: Harrow, TDT, Raymond, Harris, Painter, Brown, Leslie, Purvis, Lewis, Warren, Washington, and Lacey. (This assumes Jevoni Robinson was not a scholarship player.)
At least 8 scholarship players have completed their eligibility in the program during Gott’s 4 seasons: Johnson, C.J. Williams, Howell, Wood, Vandenburg, Turner, Lee, Battle. (We also had seniors Kendall Smith and Jay Lewis complete their eligibility in the program under Gott, but I don’t know if they were scholarship players.)
Gott was hired on April 5, 2011. That is 4 years and ten days. So why are you referencing “five offseasons”? LOL
Offseason 1: April 5, 2011 – Fall 2011 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 2: March 24, 2012 – Fall 2012 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 3: March 23, 2013 – Fall 2013 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 4: March 21, 2014 – Fall 2014 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 5: March 28, 2015 – Fall 2015 (whenever practice will officially begin)Sorry, I was operating under the assumption that I was talking to a bunch of State grads here, and thus that fundamental counting was allowed.
Or are you for some reason defining an offseason as only the last few days of March and first few days of April, meaning Gott missed the entire 2011 offseason?
The fact is that there have been 5 distinct offseason periods in which we have experienced roster change during Gott’s tenure. In each of the first 4, we had one or more players transfer out, one or more players transfer in, and multiple recruits join the program.
The 5th offseason is in progress and thus incomplete. We have seen that one player will transfer out, and I fully expect that we will ultimately see one or more players transfer in and one or more recruits join the program. If so, then it will be like every one of the previous offseasons in Gott’s tenure.
What praytell did I misrepresent? I said he had 6 transfers in three years which averaged 2 transfers a year. That is a fact.
Fact: This is Gott’s 5th offseason as State’s head coach.
Fact: During those 5 offseasons, he has had 8 players transfer out of the program: Harrow, TDT, Raymond, Harris, Painter, Purvis, Lewis, Washington
Fact: The first 5 of those transfers occurred in the first 2 offseasons.
Fact: Harrow’s transfer was due to coaching turnover.
Opinion: The TDT, Raymond, and Harris transfers were due to coaching turnover, once those players played one year under Gott and saw how he would use them (or not).
Fact: Painter transferred out due to a family situation.
Fact: Gott has had 3 of ‘his’ recruits transfer out: Purvis, Lewis, and Washington.
Opinion: TDT, Raymond, Harris, Lewis, and Washington transferred out due to lack of playing time.
Opinion: So far, Painter is the only transfer out that actually negatively impacted the program.
Fact: To offset these transfers out, Gott has brought in 5 transfers: Johnson, Turner, Lacey, Lee, Henderson.
Opinion: The net transfer results have been a net positive to the program.IMO a reasonable person would boil the above down to the fact that Gott has lost one of his own recruits each of the past 3 offseasons, which are the offseasons after the coaching turnover. Those transfers have mostly been due to concern over playing time. That is not atypical in major college basketball today. When combined with the transfers in, Gott has managed this well IMO.
As for players leaving early to go pro, that has certainly hurt the program, as Brown, Leslie, Warren, and Lacey would have all been difference makers if they stayed. It appears that Warren made the right decision. Brown and Lacey were kind of in the same boat. No one can really know if Brown made the right decision; he is in the NBA and has probably made a lot of money already, and no one can know for sure how his path would have been different had he stayed. Same deal for Lacey. I can’t begrudge either of them making that decision. In Leslie’s case, he probably actually hurt himself by staying a year longer than he should have. But, again, I can’t begrudge him that decision.
Bottom line, if you successfully recruit players at the talent level of Leslie, Brown, Warren, Lacey, Purvis, Lewis, Abu, Cat, Anya, et al., some of them are going to be good enough that they will leave early to go pro; some are going to be good enough to earn minutes that make them happy, so they will stay; and others aren’t going to be good enough to earn minutes that make them happy, so they will transfer out. Would you prefer that Gott instead recruit less talented players? I wouldn’t.
Would you like to arrgue that having only seven scholarship players is a good thing?
I have never made such an argument, and, in fact, I specifically posted about it yesterday in response to a VaWolf post in one of these threads. Frankly, it’s a stupid question, as no one would answer that it is a good thing. Does asking a stupid question somehow prove a point in your mind?
Say KH goes this year because the NBA dangles a carrot. Probably ends up being undrafted.
LOL. No way he goes undrafted if he goes. He may slip to the second, but I think that would be a bit surprising.
Anya is IMHO the #1 pro prospect on this team. You can’t teach that wing span or those shot blocking instincts. You have them, or you don’t. He also has some relatively soft hands as well.
This is why it would be surprising. Agree he is easily the #1 pro prospect on the team. Ultimately, I think all of Anya, Abu, and Cat will make it in the NBA. I doubt anyone else on last year’s roster will, including Lacey.
So tell me again about how no one was leaving? You were very critical of my assessment that transfers were almost a guarantee. What say ye now?
1. I say that you really haven’t changed your posting style much.
2. You weren’t posting about players “leaving”, you were posting about players transferring. So Lacey going pro early doesn’t support the viewpoint you were representing in our previous exchange on this subject.
3. You misrepresented the facts at that time, saying that Gott was averaging 2 transfers/year. I pointed out that you misrepresented the facts. I pointed out that after the initial flurry that I attributed to the coaching change, Gott had averaged 1 transfer per year, not 2. Lo and behold, we see that 1 player will transfer out this offseason. So, as of right now, to the extent that one of us was “wrong” in the exchange, it was you.
Probably not the answers you were looking for.
Would someone like to explain again why it is OK that we have no incoming freshmen?
It was okay but a bit worrisome for scholarship spacing when we expected Lacey and Washington back. Now that we know they are gone, it isn’t okay.
When we expected them back, it would have been difficult for Gott to sign quality recruits because said recruits would have had too much obvious competition for minutes. (That is still true at the 1/4/5 positions.) So Gott could have signed some lesser players who would have been happy without minutes, but he didn’t want to do that, and I agree with that approach.
Would you feel better about the situation if Gott had a couple Jaqawn Raymond level players coming in? In other words, warm bodies? I wouldn’t.
However, now that the situation has changed and opened up more scholarships, roles, and minutes, the opportunity is there for Gott to bring in a top recruit like Malik Newman and/or one or more juco/grad transfers. I assume Newman is still a long shot (but less so than before), but I think there is a good chance Gott will land at least one transfer who can play guard next season.
Let’s face it, Washington was rarely a factor when the team played well to close the season. Assuming no further departures and no major injuries, although I wish he had stayed, his departure probably won’t hurt much. The Lacey loss will hurt plenty, but that is the position where Gott is most likely to bring in someone, so we’ll have to see what happens there before fully assessing the damage.
Now, if someone else leaves, the sky could be falling…
Could this open up a possibility of Gott experimenting with a big lineup with Washington at SF and two other bigs on the floor? That would be interesting to see.
Well, on the bright side, now we know where the minutes will come from for the twins. Henderson and the twins will split SG/SF.
I suppose this also could increase the likelihood that Malik Newman will choose State, though I assume that is a long shot.
And Coach K deserves to be placed on a pedestal. He is clearly among the two most accomplished men’s college basketball coaches of all time, and his success with the national team suggests that he is one of the best coaches of all time at any level.
He took over a college program that wasn’t in good shape when he got there and made it arguably the best program in college basketball during his time there. And he has done that in part due to great recruiting, yet largely of players who have not gone on to be great pro players, which suggests that he hasn’t just coasted on talent. And he has done it by playing good competition, not skating by on weak schedules. Many still see Wooden as the best ever, but K’s teams have faced much tougher competition to achieve elite success.
Like all coaches of elite programs, his players haven’t been completely clean off the court, but they have been as good or better than other comparable programs. He himself has never had any notable personal issues, whether basketball-related or not, like Knight, Pitino, Roy, Boeheim, et al. And, for me, his friendship with V made him more likable.
The only reason not to like him is that he has been a great rival coach for decades who has typically coached his teams to victories over our teams. But IMO that is not a reason not to respect him.
I don’t respect K because he made his bones loudly complaining about Dean getting “kid gloves” treatment by the refs and the powers-that-be, and as soon as he started getting the same thing for himself, turns out that was all he wanted.
I have no problem at all that he complained back then. How can you think poorly of him for complaining when he was right? The league could have effected change in one of two ways. They could have stopped giving UNC preferential treatment, evening the playing field. Instead, they went the other way and extended the preferential treatment to Duke. That choice wasn’t K’s choice, it was the league’s choice, so I don’t see anything hypocritical about it.
Of course he stopped complaining when he got the same treatment. Do you think if they started giving State the same preferential treatment we perceive UNC and Duke receive from the officials that Gott would complain about it? Would you and other State fans complain about it? I don’t think so. Would that make you hypocritical? I don’t think so.
The big X-Factor is Abu. If he’s as good as I think he’s going to be, we have a chance to be an elite team. He’s got an NBA body already, and shockingly good raw skills (soft touch and good passing instincts). If he puts the work in this summer (and by all reports, he’s a really hard worker) and puts some polish on those skills, he could be one of the best post players in the ACC, if not the country. The potential is there for that.
I agree with all this. Even better, I think you can say almost the exact same thing about Anya. His strengths and weaknesses are different, but he too has a NBA body and a great foundation if he works hard enough. When is the last time our program had two future NBA bigs on the roster? I can’t remember, maybe all the way back to V.
And at the same time, we also have our best point guard since V. Good times.
With regard to rooting, I root for all ACC teams other than UNC in non-conference games. For me, no other team, including Duke, is close to UNC in terms of how much I despise them. I always respected Coach K, but his late friendship with V, especially how it was portrayed in Survive and Advance, made me like and respect him even more.
With regard to Ryan, he came across like a sore loser, because he is. There are much worse things. Note that he didn’t only complain about the officiating, he also made derisive comments about one and dones and 5th year transfers, which was hypocritical, since he has recruited one and dones, he just hasn’t landed them.
With regard to the college game, here is what it needs IMO:
1. 30 second shot clock.
2. No full reset of shot clock on offensive rebounds; reset to 20 seconds, for example.
3. 8 seconds to cross half court rather than 10.
4. Move 3 point line to NBA distance.
5. Move restricted area to NBA size.
6. Officiating emphasis on hand checking and impeding cutters.
7. Officiating emphasis on charge/block call:
a. emphasize better identification of flops, and ignore them or call defensive fouls
b. emphasize better identification of offensive players initiating contact, and ignore it or call offensive foulsI’m sure there could be more tweaks made, but, if all of that were done, it should significantly increase the pace and flow of the game and create more room for driving and creativity on offense.
