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Come on Packfanistan, those are great kids who Roy would be proud to have look after his grandkids. Surely they just buckled down when he asked them to.
I love all of this coming out. I firmly believe that nothing more will happen though. The NCAA, John Swofford and UNC cut a deal a while back.
WVWolf: I appreciate the stats as always.
I have a slightly different view on them than most. I look at our offensive production against our defensive yield and they are eerily similar. For reference check out passing yards per game, rushing yards per game, passing efficiency, turnovers, return yardage, etc. and they’re all about the same for what we’ve done versus what we’ve given up. We look like what we are — a .500 team.
There are really only a couple of glaring differences — our 3rd and 4th down defense and our penalties committed. The former is bad and the latter is good.
This also tells me that we’re probably not “lucky” or “unlucky” and for all the grumblings, we’re about average on the situational in game things. We’re performing about as one would expect relative to what happens play in and play out.
If one thinks about the talent rankings, we clearly had better talent than 4 teams and beat them. We clearly didn’t have better talent than 3 and lost them all. The BC game is the one that one could argue (and I would) that we let slip away.
I still use the moniker for HWSNBN. He was so divisive, that he doesn’t deserve his name even spoken.
I was a student at NC State when Les was there, and then when HWSNBN was hired. We had paid our penance with Les. He’d taken one for the team and navigated through one of the most difficult situations anyone could. It was time to hire a winner. Campus buzzed at names like Pitino and Calipari. Then we got HWSNBN and Florida got Billy Donovan. Which one came out the clear winner there?
That man has more to do with NC State’s current second class position in basketball than anyone directly related to the basketball program. He Fowler, Turner, the administration above them, and all the fluffers that propped him up have collectively blown us off the map. If we ever get back to the V days, I will be shocked.
bill: That might be an awkward question.
Papajohn: I’m happy to give a run down of my thoughts if that is helpful. With that and a buck, you might be able to buy a cup of coffee at McDonald’s.
Yogi: With respect to BC, if a team got surprised by them, then it was USC. They thought they’d waltz in to Chestnut Hill, beat up a weak ACC team and fly home. They figured that game would be over by the end of the first quarter. BC punched them in the mouth and they folded.
For any team AFTER that to take BC lightly would be a mistake. At the same time, all anyone has to do was watch the USC game to know exactly what BC was going to do. They were all in that game. We saw the game plan.
Are they better than we thought preseason? Sure. Were we surprised? We shouldn’t have been at all.
With respect to BC/Clemson, that game was only as close as it was due to who Clemson had under center. Clemson is a much, much, much better team with Watkins (as UNC and NC State saw) than with their other QB (which is what happened against UGA and after Watkins got knocked out against Louisville). Expect Clemson to be in nail biters from now until Watkins returns, and if he doesn’t return for them to lose to S. Carolina by 2 TDs.
I still think we let that one get away. BC’s coach inherited a much worse program than this staff did (with respect to recent records and history). Both are in year 2. BC took it to us in our house the same weak the coach said openly that he was worried about their first true road test and immaturity on their team. That was just unacceptable.
Am I on the “fire DD” bandwagon because of that game? Nope. I’m just noting it was the one game this year that has really disappointed me. The rest is trending according to my expectations. We’re “behind” pace by one game against my 7-5 (3-5) prediction.
Wimp Sanderson used to wear them at Alabama as well. I couldn’t find the pictures, but I seem to remember Gott wore those sometimes at Alabama. It was probably a nod to Wimp. I think Gott’s comfortable with that look.
While we’re in no way looking, and have already tried the NBA route, I think Vinny would be a great coach one day. I thought he did decently well with the Clippers.
Before the season, I expected us to be 5-3 (1-3) at this point. We’re 4-4 (0-4). Louisville was in ink as a loss, as was FSU and Clemson. The BC game was what hurt. I thought we’d go 7-5 (3-5) and now it’s looking more like 6-6 (2-6) at best.
I only saw about 1/2 of the Louisville game, but we played a lot better than I expected. I expected some late garbage scores by State and a 49-17 kind of thrashing. The defense played better (and actually finally attacked some). We did better against their defense than I expected. We were close, and I think it’s what hurt.
The bye week couldn’t have come at a better time. The team needs to get healthy, get focused and go play their best game at Syracuse. That’s a must win game.
whiteshoes: I hear you. I’m not saying there aren’t things with the defensive scheme I question. We went through some of those on another thread.
I just think overall, defense at college is about the players. In the NFL, the talent is more even, there’s more time to study (by the players), more time to instruct, and just more speed overall (which helps the defense more than the offense). I think the impact of defensive coaches in the NFL is higher than college.
I don’t think Hux had all NFL talent at Pittsburgh and he put up a pretty good defense. I suspect if we had just ACC average talent, we’d at least be average. I could be wrong though.
All the Hux haters may get their wish. Fair or unfair, he may be the scapegoat if things continue on their current path. DD will have to show he is “doing something.”
+1 to most of what Greywolf said.
Defense comes down to the players, particularly at the college level and in the era of the spread and hurry up offenses. You need your player to be able to beat their player 1:1, and there’s simply not many spots on our defense where we can do that.
Ten years ago, Herring was gifted the most defensive talent I’ve ever seen at NC State. He had a fantastic year. I could have coached that defense.
It wasn’t like Herring was a magician either. Like Hux, he’d made plenty of stops. Some were good. Some were not so good. He had arguably his best year at NC State. I’m sure if he’d have stuck around longer, when the talent dropped off, our opinion of him would have as well.
The same thing goes for Norm Chow. I loved the guy and was sad when he left, but he was aided by coaching some good talent and a QB that was greatly better than advertised. His track record since leaving has been pretty mixed (and downright awful as the head man at Hawaii). He’s one for Wolfpack legend though.
If we want an external reference, check out the big plays VT has given up this year. Is Bud Foster now suddenly a horrible DC? Nah, the talent level at VT is just down from where it was 5-10 years ago.
As for Hux, he had a good defense at Pitt before joining NC State. I’m guessing that he can again.
Petrino will have Louisville challenging FSU and Clemson for ACC superiority as long as he’s there. Clemson and FSU are going to probably recruit better, but Petrino will coach them better.
We’ve all known the cupboard was pretty bare outside of a couple of positions. That’s why Yow made the move when she did.
That move was a calculated risk. She had something better to sell to the next coach than if the thing ran its course and hit rock bottom. We should have (and probably did) get a hotter name than we would have had we let TOB lie in the bed he made recruiting wise.
The hope had to be though that a better coach would be able to keep the ship minimally afloat, pick up the recruiting. It’d take a slight dip at worse (5-7 land?) and then start heading back upwards. That seemingly hasn’t happened.
I hope this staff recruits better than TOB. It shouldn’t be hard. Unfortunately, I’m not sure they’re maximizing what they have, which admittedly isn’t much.
Regardless, we all know that we’re going to have to recruit our way out of this mess. That will require fan patience. The process would be much easier though if we could get that “0 for ACC” monkey off of our backs. I’m not convinced we should actually be winless at this point.
ncsu1987:
I suspect the staff would say that they blitzed on X percent of plays and I’m sure X would sound high. I’ve not mapped the plays, but even if I did, I think that our defensive philosophy is fairly vanilla. I can’t remember a jailbreak blitz, edge blitz or zone blitz this year. I’m sure they’d say we’ve run them and it’s just my poor memory or inability to actually see the play.
I’m also sure they’d say that they couldn’t switch course mid season. This isn’t video game football and you can’t change course mid season. Lord knows we heard that enough from TOB and from HWSNBN. As much as Lowe was an epic failure, he was at least willing to try something different.
I’m sure the staff would say that they’re showing recruits how they want to play defense, and they’re going to recruit and build towards it. They did the same with the offense last year. I guess that’s valid because I’ve long argued it is better to take lumps early when there’s still blame to pass on the previous administration, particularly if it helps with recruiting. If you try to maximize wins early, it becomes harder to sell that change.
I’m also sure that the staff would say (and DD said it this week) that the cupboard was empty. I’m not arguing to the contrary, but I am concerned that the defense this year looks worse than it did last year. I’ve been schematically concerned about the offense since watching N. Illinois tape, but that is another discussion. I figured the defense would be more sound. That is concerning to me given this is year two and with each passing year there is more influence of the new staff.
I also think it is increasingly difficult to recruit in the face of poor performances. There will be a certain point where PT and a promise of things to come won’t really matter. The product on the field will be the product on the field. We saw this with TOB — where his best year of recruiting was his first.
I definitely think that 0 fer is starting take its toll. BC was important for that reason. Now the pressure will really be on against Syracuse.
Regardless, I don’t think any of it matters. DD is back for at least 2-3 more years. Our best path as fans is to rally behind the team, support them and hope for the best. I do expect to see staff changes though.
MattN: Exactly.
The Captain (Yow) is going down with the ship. No way she cuts her own throat. She has to hope he succeeds and needs to do everything she can to make him succeed.
When Yow wanted to let TOB fail, she was naturally going to take a hands off approach, set goals, make them public and then hold him accountable. When the employee she hired to replace him with starts floundering, she’s going to have to take a more active, hands on, but behind the scenes approach.
If we continue down the currently reasonably expected path (1-2 wins in the ACC this year), then I expect we’ll see some staff changes. DD may not like them, but DY might “help” “nudge” him. I think the coordinators will be the scapegoats, fair or unfair.
theAliasTroll: I’m working on standard management theory.
For a college sports AD, the football coach is the most important hire. The AD’s success is most directly linked to college football. The AD wants their person in the most important position, as DY clearly did.
DY made a bold (and possibly unpopular choice with certain stakeholders) in firing TOB after a “winning” season. Granted, I agree with the choice, but in doing so, she probably made some promises or set expectations about the successor’s ability.
She hired DD. Therefore he is her man. She will have to back him. To make a quick change suggests she hired poorly. Those who didn’t support the move on TOB will be out for blood.
She’s in a Catch-22. She’ll have to back him until forced otherwise.
ncsu1987: I’m remote, so I’ve not been at the game, but it seems like we’re playing a lot of man — maybe 2 deep type stuff. I only see what the cameras show me, but I base this off of completely vacated areas of the field, particularly in the middle. It looks like the guys are coached to chase, and they’re pulled out of position for big gains on QB runs, delayed routes, etc..
I’d play zone with this secondary and LBs. Given we’re smaller, slower and weaker, we need to at least be solid position. Our guys would be helped by being able to see the play unfold in front of them, and step forward to make a tackle.
I’d pair that with some zone blitz principles. If you are smaller, slower and weaker, confusion is your best chance. We look fairly vanilla to me. The next time I see a corner come in off the edge and a DL drop into coverage (like I think BC did on the interception before the lightning) will seemingly be the first. If I’m wrong on that because I can’t tell given the TV / internet feeds, then I apologize in advance.
I’d have also stacked the box against BC. It may not have changed anything. We may not have been able to stop the offensive line. They may have thrown over the top, but I’d have forced Murphy to beat us throwing. We came out in a 4-2-5 with the same spacing we did against Clemson…..
I’d have also put a spy on Murphy. I would have taken the best athlete in the back 7 and told him that no matter what, his job was not to let Murphy get beyond the line of scrimmage. Otherwise, stay in a short zone to cut off some of the crossing stuff and hit him hard every time he ran.
I’m not convinced that BC had that much more talent than we did. They had a system, an identity, were well schooled in it, and ground out a fairly easy and convincing win. Anyone who watched them play USC knew the game plan.
Now, to your point, nothing schematically was going to help us against Clemson and FSU, nor will it against Louisville. The talent gap is way too big. That’s why those were inked as losses before the year started in my mind.
We blew it big time against BC at home. That was a much needed win to get the monkey off the back and get the team looser. I think this team is playing tight, particularly JB. At a certain point, when the losses mount, every little mistake gets amplified and there’s no real trust that you can pull things out.
I think that’s what is happening. The offense thinks they have to score every time they touch the football. One mistake and it feels like the game is lost. I thought the defense felt that way last year given the offense’s ineptitude. Due to the “fast pace” style offense, if the offense misfires, the defense is right back out there with virtually zero rest to play more outmanned ball. Something is wrong with Sade on the FGs. Heck, even Baumann will be impacted if he keeps outkicking coverage. This isn’t a confident team.
Regardless, the natives just need to settle down. DD isn’t going anywhere as long as Yow is here. Yow knows this is her last stop, and I think there’s some legacy work she wants to see completed. I think she’s also smart enough to know that if she comes after DD early, no one is going to want to work for her, and it will just reflect poorly on her decision with TOB and this particular hire.
I do suspect we see coordinator changes after this season. DD is going to have to show that he’s “doing something.” He promised this last year and then moved on his secondary coach. I found it odd because that was a guy who he brought with him from N. Illinois.
I said before the game that yesterday would show us the direction the program was headed in. I thought we’d win in a close one, but that it’d be lower scoring than many thought due to long drives by BC. We laid a complete egg.
Here’s a random assortment of thoughts:
– JB is forcing it. He has been for a while, but DCs have caught on.– I hate the jet sweep plays. I can time that snap count every single time. If I can do it, defensive players can as well.
– I hate our rushing philosophy in general. It will work against teams with inferior offensive lines, but the last time we’ve had a superior offensive line was when we had PR and TA. I’ve said this for a while. I said this before we hired Canada. There’s a reason his last year at Wisconsin was a hot mess.
– I’m worried because Adazzio at BC inherited a worse situation than DD did at NC State. He’s now 2-0 against DD. More importantly, BC’s coach has established a clear identity and it is one that definitely can work, and minimally will make BC a very tough out. We have not, or even worse, our identity seems quite soft.
– BC made better in game adjustments than we did. Queue the talk about them having a by week, but the game was stopped for an hour, and BC came out much sharper than we did.
– This was an important swing game. We won’t be beating Louisville or UNC. Do we really think we’re going to take 2 out of 3 from GT, WF and Syracuse?
– I’m worried about the state of our defense. When we hired DD and his two coordinators, I figured we’d be better on the defensive side of the ball than the offensive. People can scream for the DC’s head, but it concerns me that a defensive minded head coach is putting out defense this bad.
– Our defense is actually worse this year than last year. Last year they seemed to tire out late, which was understandable given the offense was doing nothing. This year, we just come out and lay down.
– For all the schematic complaints, it’s not about the X’s and O’s but the Jimmies and Joes. Many positions including our LBs and RBs looked completely outmatched yesterday.
– We didn’t lose because Sade missed the FG, but Sade needs to make these things. It won’t be long before we see the staff “going for it” on questionable down and distance. Desperate times will call for desperate measures, particularly if there is a shakey kicker.
– I said before we fired TOB that the worst thing about hiring him would be how divisive he’d be. He’d never break through, but he’d always do well enough to have enough backers not to be fired. He was HWSNBN in football, hired by a man that loved HWSNBN. I don’t opine for the days of TOB, but there’s no way he’d have lost the last 11 conference games.
– The parallels of the HWSNBN successor to the TOB successor are possibly becoming hard to ignore. We hired a guy light on experience both times and are seeing eerily similar results.
– Regardless of what the fans think, DD is going to get a very long leash from DY. She’s boxed herself into a corner here. DD is her hire and she’s going to have to back him, particularly after her proactive move on TOB. She may have been right on TOB (and I personally think she was), but given her reputation from dealing with Gary Williams and the Fridge, she can’t afford to do anything but back DD and pray that he gets it done.
– We need to ditch the up tempo nonsense, and focus on sustained drives to rest our defense. We don’t have the depth or skill needed to pull this off.
– Don’t look now, but unless things change drastically, both coordinators are dead men walking. We have too many gaps that I can see as an uninformed casual fan. The big money donors will start grumbling and some changes will have to be made.
I’ve been watching NC State football for 30 years. By watching I mean consistently following the program, attending games, watching the games on TV, reading the box scores, etc..
Our offense this year is slightly above average for NC State. As a program though, we’ve been typically above average on the offensive side of the ball relative to peers. Outside of a couple of years with Chuck where we had some great defense and a few stinker years under TOB (and last season), we’ve always had better offense than defense. The OL has played quite well (Clemson game was the first bad one) as has Brissett. We put up 40+ on FSU and we have outscored opponents in 4 other games. I’ll take it.
Our defense is below average by NC State standards over the past 30 years. We’re not a defense first program like VT, but this one is still in the bottom 5-10 defenses that I can remember since watching. Archer had a couple like this, Chuck had one (River’s senior year), Mike O’Cain blessed us with a few and last year was bad. This one is down there. It’s in the bottom of the conference with UNC, Wake and I suspect Duke and Syracuse. We can’t get off the field and don’t generate any pressure. Our best hope is that the other team gives us the ball.
Our special teams have been well above average. I’ve been on Sade for missing a couple of FGs early, but he’s solid and his kick offs are great. The punting has been NFL quality. Coverage has been quite good outside of one kick against USF.
We’re also well above average with respect to penalties. This season is better than any time under Chuck, TOB and any time that I can remember under MOC. That’s a sign of coaching to me. Keep it up fellas!
We’re headed in the right direction. Our stats are skewed by playing against the two best offenses and defenses in the ACC in our first two conference games. We’d look much better had we played WF and Syracuse. We’re not quite at the place we want to be, nor are we getting there quickly enough, but the ship is definitely turning.
The Strutting Wolf needs to be the primary mascot for NC State. Eventually the administration will wake up and get it.
The Block S is nice and all, but only really works in NC. Get outside of the state (and all it takes is a state away) and people think it is Stanford.
Those helmets look awesome by the way. That’s by far the best looking NC State helmet in 20+ years. If they auction these or made replicas, I’d buy one.
greywolf: I thought Fedora was a solid hire for UNC, particularly given the impending cloud of all that was going over there. I thought DD was good for NC State as well. Both had inherited good programs at their previous stops, seemingly improved them and rode out of town with a somewhat limited track record.
I think Fedora will be there as long as that cloud hangs over UNC. With more and more being uncovered, I just don’t see anyone better looking to take that job. I also think Fedora probably has enough dirt on them from his time there alone to have good job security.
If you want to see what “impact” Fedora and DD had on their programs, check out what happened when they left. S. Miss has been a complete train wreck, so love him or hate him, Fedora was seemingly doing something right. N. Illinois success seemed more linked to Lynch and a talented class than possibly to DD.
Long story short, I think we’re improving and have seen signs of that improvement. The next step is to get DD’s first ACC win. If we can’t do that against BC at home, then we’re going to start 0-4, and the pressure is really going to mount for the Syracuse game.
tobaccoroadshow: Thanks for underscoring my point for me. College sports are just entertainment. In no way is that tied to the mission statement of the University. If you’re entertained by the game great, but if not, don’t attend. That’s really how it should be on the relative scale.
My problem with the “SEC Culture” crew is that the SEC puts the value of the entertainment problem above many other things. It’s effectively across the board too. It also happens in the ACC. FSU does as well in football, and UNC seemingly has for years in many sports.
Do I like those priorities? Nope. Do I want my school to take them on? Nope.
Grey: This pains me to say because I hold both undergraduate and graduate degrees from NC State, but we don’t have excellence in academics right now, at least as perceived by our peers, the measuring bodies and more importantly our endowment. We have a value play which ironically is similar to our sporting experience — what can we get for cheap.
Stanford and Duke have excellence in academics that translates to alumni and corporate giving that then in turn allows them to dabble in this sports thing. Having spent a lot of time at Duke, they just “get it” more at every level.
NC State and Woodson need to first and foremost focus on academics and the endowment. If they view sports as a line item in their plan to do so, then that’s fine, but I’m skeptical of that. People cite Duke basketball, the resurrection under K and the overall improvement of the national reputation and applicant pool, but that was 30 years ago and a lot has changed. With everyone trying that model, I’m not sure it is prudent to do the same thing. It would be much better for the university and all of its alumni to see us become a top 25 educational institution than it would be to see it become a top 25 sports program.
+1 to foose on the good and the bad.
I would add that Saturday is a must win and a should win game. This will be the most telling game of his tenure thus far.
Whiteshoes67: Your last sentence really better states my point. This football culture that the original post and some posters opine for is not exactly a positive one.
A university is there first and foremost to educate people. Having a great football “experience” is far down that list, just as sports in general should be far down the priority list of a Chancellor. The university has to find its balance and go from there.
There’s no way to sugar coat it. That was a beat down.
What it means though is what is up for debate. I look at this in two ways — the logical and the NC State tinted glasses.
The NC State @#($)* part of me thinks:
– That slow start by the offense was way too predictable (look at my posts leading up to the game to see it). They’d read too many press clippings and had actually started slow before.
– Our defense, particularly in the back, was totally outmatched. The game was over from the first bomb. There was going to be no way we could guard their receivers. It was the same thing UNC had happen last week.
– Our rinky dink offense was easily controlled by a team that could shut down the edge.
– DD and staff are now 0-10 in ACC play.
– It’s eerily similar to Lowe in that we take a moral victory (out of a loss), think it is a sign of better things to come and then completely @#($)* the bed in the next game. We take 2 steps backwards for the 1/2 step forward we took in the moral victory loss.
– It’s not just that we got crushed, it is how we got crushed. We looked scared and uninspired. That reminded me of Lowe’s bball teams (Michigan State anyone?) as well. 🙁
– Thank god Dabo called off the dogs or it’d have been 70-0.The logical part of me thinks:
– We had three losses in ink before the season started on this schedule — FSU, Clemson and Louisville.
– Louisville is also going to beat us. If you watch them, they’re bigger, stronger and faster as well. Louisville looks like FSU and Clemson from a player physique perspective.
– Clemson’s QB is really good. Had he played against Georgia, that game would have been much closer. Really, if they’d have groomed him in the offseason to take the reigns, they could easily be undefeated right now. Ifs and buts and candy and nuts, but this kid is the heir apparent to best QB in the ACC.
– Clemson with this QB is the ACC’s best team. They’re more apt to run the table than FSU.Outside of Louisville, there’s no one else on the schedule that we cannot beat. I fully expect us to finish 7-5, which was my preseason prediction.
The BC game is huge though. It’s a home game, and we really, really need a win before going to Louisville. We can’t walk out of Louisville 0-4 in the ACC and expect to do much more than split the last 4.
This week against BC is going to tell us more about this staff and this team than FSU or Clemson did. If we’ve got a good staff that is building the right kind of program, we’re going to find a way to win at home against BC.
Respectfully, while I think the tailgating policy is ridiculous and knee jerk, the reason we stink has absolutely nothing to do with an inability to storm the field after a huge upset or walk onto the field after a game. If anything, field storming happens because it is such a huge upset and isn’t a sign that a program is actually there, but that’s another discussion.
I’ll add in some counter points. Something was going to happen with the tailgating. That was a pressure cooker boiling for a long time. The student/frat lots were embarrassing, menacing and simply weren’t places that I wanted to walk guests who didn’t attend NC State through, much less my family. For tailgating like that to return, there needs to be a serious increase in police presence, which does come with some costs.
As for field storming, there’s a good reason. We were one CJ Leslie moment of heroics away from being the poster child of why court storming is a terrible idea. For all the grumblings about untapped potential, we collectively owe him a huge thanks for stopping what could have been a horrifically sad event. The same applies to football.
Go watch the 30 for 30 soccer stories on the overcrowding issue in the 1980s that killed lots of people. I’m not a shill for the administration, but they’re trying to balance that fun atmosphere with safety.
As for the guy in the shirt picture, I’m in the minority, but I am fine with what the yellow shirted staff person did. Hakim’s razor if I’m the Events guy? I’d see someone with that physique taking his clothes off, standing on a wall that is less wide than his feet, holding onto a pole that obviously isn’t that sturdy for support and think that he’s completely hammered. One push from the person behind him and he could fall down and get hurt. If that’s my job, and I’m taking it seriously, I’d be trying to get him down too.
If I’m the administration, I’d cut out pass outs. I wouldn’t do it for any “good crowd” related reasons, but more because of the fact that it’s used by most people to go and get loaded up again at the halftime. Keeping people in the stadium at least gives them a few hours to sober up.
I’d take it one step further and set up some DUI stops. This isn’t specific to NC State, but to virtually every major sporting event. There’s a lot of aggressive, alcohol influenced driving that happens in the lots and roads in traffic after sporting events. It’s amazing we don’t hear of more stories of people getting hit by cars.
I love the site and most commentary is spot on, but this one misses by a mile.
