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I’m with you VAWolf. When we were having the Gott debates during the mid-season slide, I was in the camp that the best thing for the program was probably to miss the tournament. We were going 0 fer in recruiting and a coaching change may have kept some of this together or at least moved us to a candidate that a portion of the fan base hadn’t already soured on.
We seemingly hit the best case scenario of what could have happened in the season. The problem is that we still have that 0 fer recruiting class, we’re seeing attrition, whatever is keeping players away is still keeping players away (and I NEVER believed that was PT), and the fan base is seemingly still divided. The Sweet 16 run was great, but it is starting to look like we won’t build on it.
Gott’s bulletproof at this point given 4 tourneys and 2 Sweet 16s. If we’re back on the bubble again next year, it will be more of the same infighting though. I don’t think that’s good for the program long term, but it could just be that my opinion is skewed because of the 10 years we gave HWSNBN.
I still believe we’ve got a good feel for about where Gott can get us. It’s better than anything we’ve had since V, but the question is whether it is good enough?
Anya should stay one more year and go pro. Really, that weight issue is what “cost” him a year extra in the college game. He had to spend a year just getting into base shape. Now he needs to spend an offseason getting into a little better shape and working on some offensive post moves. For most players, they’d have done that between the freshman and sophomore years.
Anya is IMHO the #1 pro prospect on this team. You can’t teach that wing span or those shot blocking instincts. You have them, or you don’t. He also has some relatively soft hands as well.
I’m also with BJD. I love that guy. He’s probably my favorite player since Marcus Melvin and Illian Evtimov.
And yes, I said it — Marcus Melvin and Illian Evtimov. Melvin was a one man press break at the forward position who could make threes and had some swagger. Evitimov was a great passer, fundamentally sound, good shooter and give it his all. Had any of Gott’s teams had Melvin or Evtimov, we’d have cut down some nets somewhere. Both would have been perfect for what we do now offensively.
Trevor’s situation was a Catch-22. He came to State and got way more exposure with our Sweet 16 run. That’s in a way a testament to what we can offer.
I thought he was a goner during the tournament given that former pro players were saying he was “the best isolation player in the tournament.” Warren got great praises last year and went (good move). CJL got great praises a few years ago, didn’t go, and really should have because he didn’t improve his game.
I think the move is questionable just because of how deep this year’s draft is. Between the kids leaving from Kentucky, Duke, Frank the Tank, Anderson, etc. you have to think that this is a tough year to break through for any marginal talent. There are some good players that are more finished, but there are a lot of kids with potential. If you want to draft on potential, then there’s a lot of options out there.
The thing about Lacey is that we don’t know exactly what he is thinking. He’s stated his goal is to be an assistant coach in the NBA. Maybe he knows he’s not going to be a NBA player, but wants to get as much exposure to different coaching as possible as a player? Maybe he feels like he’s learned what he can from this staff in 2 years?
Personally, I think I’ve had stayed and tried to parlay a strong year and a weak draft into some guaranteed NBA money. If the NBA as a player was a goal, then I think that would be the smarter move. I’m not sure who’d be advising otherwise and if Lacey actually believes this path gets him there as a player.
As for KW, it was obvious that one of the bigs was going to be leaving and as the season wore on it went (in my mind) from Freeman to KW. I thought the minutes in the rotation was good for four, but the problem was the scholarship spacing. This was probably going to happen from the second we brought Anya, KW and Freeman in at the same class. One of those kids was never really going to see the light at the end of the tunnel for increased minutes and exposure.
It’s a darn shame about these two because I like them as players and I like to pull for them. Had everyone come back, I think we could have been setting up for something really special. I thank them for what they’ve given the university though.
As for more attrition, I suspect we’re done. Two jumped the same day. It could be coincidence, but was probably timed together.
As for recruiting, I’ve been arguing for a long time that a zero man recruiting class was a horrible idea. You never know when a transfer is going to happen. You never know when injuries might happen. You hope that a kid blows up and leaves early to get drafted. The point is that you have to keep the pipeline going. I’m sure the staff has been trying, but a zero man class is the type of thing that gets a coach fired (see Al Skinner). I believe we’ll bring in some transfers, but I’d be shocked if we’re bringing in a freshman.
As for Gott, I thought the second Sweet 16 would buy him 2-3 more years with the fans. That doesn’t seem to be happening. I guess my thoughts earlier in the season that a significant enough portion of the fanbase has already turned is true. It will be the HWSNBN wars part 2 with Gott I suspect from here on out.
Is Gott miffed? I’m sure. I suspect he probably likes Lacey a lot as a person and thinks this is a mistake. He obviously had a fondness for him given the initial recruitment, transfer, handling in the media, etc..
At the same time, it’s hard to blame the players. The coaches are paid millions. The players are getting relatively little. Who benefits the most from a stud player returning? The coach. It’s hard to trust the coast has your best interests in mind when he stands to make millions if he convinces you otherwise.
As for college basketball, this type of thing (no real continuity) is just another nail in the coffin. The game that I loved in the 80s and 90s is dead.
XP:
There are three reasons that GA made sense to State:
– $$$$$$$$$$: He signed an extension in 2013 that pays him less than we pay Gott.
– The challenge of seeing if he could transition to the men’s game. I’m sure he’s heard how the women’s game doesn’t translate. I’m guessing he’d love a shot to prove that it could, particularly at the highest stage.
– I suspect he’d have seen the unique opportunity that Yow as an AD would provide. She would be a woman AD (and he obviously knows how to work with women) whose sister was a legend in the women’s game, like he is. GA would have been one of the few coaches who took one of our liabilities and seemingly made it a strength.So, I thought then and still believe there were compelling reasons. The risk was that his abilities and tactics didn’t translate. The other risk is that he’d have to build new recruiting connections, but I think that could have been overcome more easily than most do. I think it’s far tougher to convince women to come to play for a man than it is to convince men to come and play for a man that used to coach women.
I applaud his recent move.
I think we’re looking everywhere personally:
– Hard after top line freshman, but knowing we’re not getting them.
– Grad transfer who can play immediately: like Alex Johnson
– Regular transfers: like Turner, Lacy, Henderson — seems like we’ve taken one of these every year
– JUCO: See Dez Lee
– International: I hear rumblings of this.I think we’re going to bring in two. The question is whether they’ll be eligible next year.
We need more than 9 though. You can’t really run a full scrimmage with that few. We also need a back up PG and another big to space behind the 3 that are on track to depart at the same time (and who will only have one more year of eligibility after next season).
Also, there’s a huge difference between being concerned about a lack of freshman commitments and saying you want to bring in a Justin Flatt, Mike Bell, Dom Mejia, etc.. HWSNBN brought those kids in when he missed and just wanted warm bodies. We were always told how they were diamonds in the rough that everyone else missed out on, but only the genius of HWSNBN could recognize. They had transfer written all over them from the second we’d see them in the Red and White scrimmage.
I think some posters (myself included) have been rightly concerned about this year’s recruiting class. Even if we bring in transfers, JUCOs, etc., we’re likely looking at a scholarship year gap, which can mess up spacing. We’ll have to take in other transfers or JUCOs down the road to space around this.
Quick thoughts:
– I agree with GA that the men’s game is borderline unwatchable at this point. It’s played by very athletic people with very few skills and the “defense” is nowhere near the rules.
– This only changes with calling the game as it is meant to be, stressing fundamentals at the lower levels and doing things like moving to the FIBA court and reducing the shot clock.
– If college basketball doesn’t fix this, then I think interest levels will continue to decline. Right now, it’s almost all about/only the tournament for the average sports fan.
– The women’s game is unwatchable, but that’s for other reasons. The girls actually do run a semblance of recognizable offensive sets though.
– I thought and still think we should have gone after GA for our men’s coach. There’s no way that a guy who has won that many games would not be successful.Turner was greatly under appreciated by many fans. I think he was hurt towards the end of the year and his shooting tailed off. When that happened though, he picked up his rebounding and his defense actually improved as well. I’m hoping Henderson can replace him, but it’s premature to say we’ll be trading up. People said the same thing about TDT and Painter.
We really need KW back. He is long, can shoot which opens the floor underneath for Anya and Freeman, and plays with a mean streak and ice in his veins.
I am proud of the way the team and staff circled the wagons after that brutal mid year stretch and finished strong. I would really, really like to see the program take the next step and be able to turn in consistent performances game in and game out the entire season.
Yes, I understand these are college players and even Kentucky isn’t the same team from game to game. We saw that with Kentucky vs. W.VA when compared to Kentucky vs ND.
Regardless, I want NC State to take the next step and move into the discussion consistently. That’s just just at the end of the season if we get hot, but a team that’s in the top 25 most of the year. That’s the progression we need as a program and it will really help recruiting.
I think we can do it if everyone who has eligibility returns. The loss of Dez and Turner will be bigger than most suspect. I think Dez was that glue guy like Alex Johnson that all the guys really liked. I think Turner was instant offense and underrated at rebounding and scrapping. We don’t know whether Henderson will step into either of those roles.
What we can’t afford is anyone else leaving? I expected KW to have more of an impact this year. The offense and aggressiveness are there. We just need him playing defense and taking it to the rack. I hope he sticks around to do so.
I think we lost because:
1) Game plan
2) Harrell was incredibly impressive. That was lottery pick play if you ask me. It was like he was on a personal vendetta to make up for the last game.
3) Delta in aggressiveness that resulted in an inconsistent whistle
4) An off night from Cat and Abu
5) That freshman PG played lights out on the big stage.I felt like this was our best shot to make real noise since V. At the same time, this type of game shows you just how tough it is once you make the Sweet 16.
I will say this though. The late season run that resulting in the Sweet 16, from where we were after the rough stretch was incredibly impressive. While we need to tip the cap to Louisville tonight, I’m pretty impressed with how we finished up down the stretch.
The path back to relevance isn’t done with one hot run. It’s done from being in the discussion year in and year out. Notice the number of appearances in the Sweet 16 that Pitino, Izzo, Roy, K, Calipari, etc. have made? That’s what we need to get in order to get over the hump. Continuous success will feed recruiting, which ultimately will allow us to break through. The goal next year should be no less than the Sweet 16.
The N&O and WRAL will do more with this than they’ve done with the entire UNC scandal.
It’s kind of a shame about Amerson and CJL. Both seemingly had limitless potential and were always a bit “distracted.”
I liked Dayton. I watched them play a couple of times and thought they looked solid. Their RPI got them in. The committee values that number. If anything, they probably deserved higher than LFI.
UCLA only got in because they’re UCLA (tv ratings, $$$) and due to some pressure I’m sure from the Pac 12. Stanford’s AD is on the committee and BYU’s AD was as well. Granted, BYU has no Pac 12 affiliation, but you have to think that they think more highly of West Coast basketball than the average poster. Still, for them to get in and not as a LFI is nothing short of head scratching.
Temple seemingly got hosed. They were 8-8 against the top 100 and had a tougher OOC SOS than UCLA.
State better watch out for LSU. That’s the classic trap game for us if we’re looking ahead to Nova.
The team looked good last night in a methodical win. Quick thoughts:
– The coaching staff deserves as much credit for the way the team is playing now as they did criticism earlier in the year. Good job at this point. I hope we keep playing like last night the rest of the year.
– Cat was awesome.
– Turner had a great game doing the other stuff.
– We look better with the tighter rotation. That saddens me because I love what KW, Dez and Cody bring to the game.
– I liked how we just methodically executed and the game was never really in doubt.
– We did a good job with press break minus a couple of possessions. Earlier this year when we saw a press, we just folded like a cheap suit.
– Pitt should have had a massive sense of urgency, but if they did we took them out of that early.On to Duke. If we win this, we can make some noise. In truth though, this is a very big challenge. They’ll be fresh and we’re coming off a game. They’re stacked with talent and are incredibly hot right now.
This is where that BC loss killed us late. Had we won that, we’d be playing ND today. Who here doubts we’d take ND down?
Pitt’s playing for a lot more than we are. I think we’re in regardless and probably primed for a distraction (venue and potential Duke rematch) and let down. Pitt has to notch at least 2 wins to hope to go to the tournament.
This is the classic game setup for Pitt to be a spoiler. Year in and year out, we’ve won games like this on the other side. I just have a bad feeling about this one. I hope I’m wrong.
Good win by State today. I couldn’t see it, had hoped to see it on replay and then realized it was a CBS game. Oh well… I’ll get to bed earlier tonight which is good given the Spring forward.
This team has really come on strong at the end of the year. The talent has always been there, but whatever was holding it back is seemingly sorted. I think the more consistent rotation, the emergence of Cat, Turner getting healthy, Abu’s more aggressive play and Anya staying out of foul trouble and better FT shooting have been the magical combination. That’s a lot of things that have come together, so the staff has to get a lot of credit.
If we win on Wednesday, I think we get a 7 seed. There are 7 teams going from the ACC this year, and Miami will be the lowest seed. Granted, we could get 8, but that’d take a miracle run from a lower team that I don’t see happening. I can’t point to any of them that might be able to string that many wins together, much less against the top teams in the league.
As for Boeheim and Syracuse, I find it interesting that fans in the ACC are just waking up to what a classless bunch that is. People thought that about Maryland and Gary/Fridge, but I have been to many Maryland games, and several games involving Syracuse. Syracuse, its fans and JB have always been worse. I also lived in the northeast growing up as a kid and Syracuse and the Big East was king, and JB was the jerk on the throne. He’s getting what he has always deserved.
I also love that we’ve won 2 out of the last 3 against Syracuse. I know a lot of big time Syracuse fans, and they really gave me a ration of @()* when Herb and Sid choked away home wins against the Orange.
It will be interesting to see what happens to Syracuse over the next 5 years. I’m guessing they’ll sign the full allotment this year, which means the next four years, they’ll be limited. Granted, most teams really only have 10 scholarship players anyways, so it’s not that much punishment. The question I have is whether JB flies the finger to the NCAA and retires now, whether he decides to stick out the whole set of sanctions to turn over a better situation to the next coach, or whether he coaches one more year and hangs it up. If he does the first or the latter, I suspect Syracuse will struggle a bit to find a successor.
It doesn’t matter if it was ugly. It was a win at Clemson which has been a house of horrors for us in the last 10 years. They’re sort of like WF in football for us, but in basketball. That’s a team that we think we should beat, but often lose on the road to.
Interestingly Clemson is one of only 3 ACC teams with in-league winning record against State over the past 10 years. The other two are Duke and UNC. Syracuse is still up, but those were non-conference games. I believe Maryland did as well, but they’re no longer in the league. Not beating teams like Clemson and Maryland has been what has held us back more than our pitiful winning percentages against UNC and Duke.
As for Clemson, they play ugly ball. When they hired Brownell, I thought it was a good move. I had him for a dark horse NC State candidate when he was still at Wright State based on what he’d done there and at UNC-W. I don’t know what’s holding his recruiting back at Clemson, but he’s just not getting the types of players it is going to take to get over the hump in the ACC.
I unfortunately couldn’t see the game last night. I could see a replay of Duke beating Butler in the title, but couldn’t see a live game in the ACC’s “footprint.” Thanks Raycom. You rule.
Win against Syracuse and we’re in. Lose and the BC, Wofford, Wake and Purdue losses may keep us out unless we win 2 in the ACC tournament.
It’s the season for Syracuse. They’re going to come out ready to play. They’ve been better as the spoiler and I’m sure are motivated to win their last game. I hope we treat it with the same intensity and motivation. If we sit around and chuck up 3 pointers against the zone, we’ll get beaten handily.
I like the quote… I’d have preferred we put it up without attributing it….. 20 years from now if DD turns out to be something special, then we could have attributed it.
If I’ve learned one thing from Gott’s team, it is to never take anything for granted. We can beat anyone, but we can (and will) lose to anyone.
And let’s not trot out the BS V comparisons as excuses. V’s teams might have a WTF game, but I personally don’t remember them ever choking and simultaneously laying an egg like what we saw this past weekend. About the only way to play our way out of a bid was to take a bad loss, and we did it in convincing fashion.
Watch us lose to Clemson and then beat Syracuse. This is a frustrating program.
I like DD. I think he’ll be here a while. I think NC State basketball and NC State football are vastly different entities with different expectations. I know that DD is young and has a world of potential.
Having said all of that, I wonder if we’ve not learned something from our contract situation with Gott. Like we did with Gott after year 1, Deb’s signed an extension and raise based on “early returns.” Will we regret this move in a few years? I say the chances are less likely than with Gott, but it still makes one wonder……
About a month back, just after the Duke win, I said we needed to not lose any bad games (GT, WF, VT), and go >.500 against the teams we were competing with in the ACC for bids (Syracuse, Pitt, Miami and Clemson) and we’d be in without issue. The bad losses and the Louisville win probably offset, but the losses to Clemson and Miami hurt. We really can’t afford another loss to Clemson unless we somehow beat UNC.
I don’t think we get in if we lose to Clemson and UNC, unless we pull a second round upset in the ACC. Of course, with UVA’s best player hurt, they’re highly vulnerable. They’re setting up for some losses as they can’t keep squeaking by.
Good win yesterday. I didn’t see it, but hats off to the players, coaches, support staff, etc. for winning a tough game on the road with their backs against the wall.
I’ve seen Louisville play a handful of times this year. There are three keys to beating them:
1) Don’t turn it over. They turn turnovers into momentum changing dunks better than most anyone I’ve seen this year. Great jobs by Lacey and Cat protecting the ball.2) Don’t feed “the beast” and by that I mean their center. I think he is the most physically dominant player in the league. ‘Nard and Anya grew up yesterday. Of course part of his success is due to how good he is in transition, which is back to point number 1.
3) Don’t get down. That 78-2 stat with a halftime lead is amazing.
As for what this means for the season, we can still dance. We can also still CBI. This team and Gott are just too big of an enigma to say anything “should” happen.
As for the press radon expectations, we should have been about 6th. That is where I had us. The media vote was due to them shorting us, just like they did last year. I tend to agree with BJD’s comments.
The continued undermining of V and his accomplishments to prop up our successive coaches saddens and maddens me. Apples to oranges with respect to the ACC, round robin scheduling, teams in the tournament, etc.. Massive differences in regular season finishes, ACC and NCAA tournament results. Massive difference in scope of the role (AD + coach for a while). Massive difference in positive exposure brought to the program. Massive difference in resources afforded to them by the university.
We can start comparing when any one of these successive coaches actually wins a thing of note.
Gott tried to back pedal on the expectations in year 2, but it didn’t matter. People looked and saw 4 potential pro players on a team coming off a Sweet 16 run that only lost 2 role players. They were replaced by 3 McDonald’s AA freshman. The pieces were there. They just didn’t come together.
The brake tapping was all coach speak before the season anyways trying to keep the players focused. Had the team actually gelled, Gott would have been a mastermind motivator. Instead he’s the guy trying to lower fan expectations (like TOB and HWSNBN always did).
The fact that they didn’t come together completely undermined all momentum of year 1. That’s my point about that and Sid’s year 2. That momentum hurts future recruiting, not necessarily what you have coming in immediately afterwards. We’re suffering in recruiting now because of year 2 and what has transpired since.
It was also obvious to me about the middle of year 2 where this was going to go. Those kids that finished strong the previous year suddenly weren’t bad kids. Heck, that year 2 team was way more talented. It pointed to coaching and it was Sid all over again (but with a higher floor).
I’ve been waiting for this to play out ever since. The seeds of the results for season were planted a while ago. I think the general fan base is waking up now, and the big money donors will face the inevitable after next season. Due to the contract, Gott will probably get one more even after that.
There’s a level between #1 and #2 in the poll and that’s where I’d fall. Gott jumped the shark with the late run in year 1.
Year two’s disaster was up there with Sid’s year 2. We had a higher ceiling with the Gott team (preseason #6) and Sid’s second team was critically flawed (no PG) but the level of disappointment was similar. It all even started in an eerily similar way where a physical team punched us in the mouth and we never really recovered on the way to a blow out. All momentum built in year 1 was effectively squandered.
Fast forward a couple of years and we’re kind of stuck in neutral. These are HWSNBN type results, but with a better scheduling philosophy and a more conventional team structure.
My answer to the poll is that a staff change is inevitable. It’s just how long it takes to play out. It surely won’t happen this year, if for no other reason than the contract. The question is whether it happens next year or the following.
Because of the team make up, I don’t for a second believe another coach wouldn’t want to have a go at this squad. There’s talent here at every position. The only position without depth is PG where we really have two combos. This isn’t what HWSNBN left us — a team with no PG and whose interior guys were all recruited to jack up 3s.
As for the “villain” comments. We have one, and his name is Kyle Washington. He was clearly “directing traffic” earlier this year. He’s also willing to step up when we’re desperately in need. Since then his minutes have fluctuated, presumably due to performance. If an on the court leader is so important, then the staff clearly should recognize that and prioritize having them out there.
My contention (admittedly never having played or coached at the college level) is that a team leader isn’t as important as a go to player. The “team leader” excuse is trotted out by every team with weak leadership out of the coaches. The important player is the one that can put a team on it’s back and carry them. We have that in Lacey this year and had it in TJW last year. The results look about the same.
There were some other comments about strategy. The strategy from this year from the very beginning was very obvious. There were two choices:
1) Go 10 deep, platoon like Kentucky or Arkansas and press like crazy. This is a long, athletic, fast and deep team. We lack top line talent and shooting compared to the elite teams but make up for it in depth. We were going to struggle some in the half court without TJW. We needed to get out and run and it started with defense and a style of play.2) Reduce the rotation to 7-8, play a zone defense and stick BJ in the middle to clog it all up. Live with his reduced offensive production. If a player got hot from the perimeter, switch it to a box or diamond and 1 with Cat on the hot hand.
We seemingly did neither. When we get in a hole we go to option #1 and look really, really, really good. Then we revert to “the plan” and back to mediocrity (putting it kindly).
I don’t agree with the “honor the process” and “NC State/Wooden pyramid of excellence” argument. That one sounds as stubborn as HWSNBN and TOB. At a certain point, a coach has to look at what works and go with it. Failure to do so is noticed by the players. They know they’re not being put in the best position to win. Deviation from the plan shows a sense of urgency by the staff, which the players appreciate as well.
For reference, think about this past football season. We turned it around because we hit the softer part of the schedule, but we also turned it around because we were more aggressive on defense and switched to a run first offensive philosophy. We didn’t try to do the same thing over and over again because we were “honoring the process” or “building for the future” with the “long term in mind.”
