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Good to get a win. I figured after this was official the players would play loose and harder and we’d get two more regular season wins (GT and Clemson). We may win one at the ACC tournament as well, but that is about it.
Thumbs up to CowDog on that last post. It’s getting downright tiresome.
This post is about our coaching search. The flamebait can be elsewhere.
I think there’s a huge bump leading up to Gott being left go, and then some initial excitement as candidates came up, but I suspect we won’t hear anything for another month. The constant hashing possibly makes it harder for us to talk with the candidates (because if they find out that it gets leaked if they talk to us, then they may not talk). Just sit back, relax and whomever it will be, it will be.
I’m not a Bilas fan, and find him an insufferable, condescending ass. I hope we hit a home run if for no other reason to spite guys like him.
It’s sad to see the media trolling us, but so be it. I think there’s perception, but then there is also education that needs to happen for a candidate. It’s not miss twice and you are gone. It is predicted start versus where we ended up, which most years was far lower and the last two was flat out awful. Mix in a whole lot of off court issues, and then it becomes pretty clear.
Just some quick thoughts:
– Yow had too much faith in Gott, but we’ve all been there.
– Performance at work is often linked to lifestyle outside of it. If things are going well at home, then performance is generally better at work. When there’s turmoil at home, the bare minimum will often be done at work. As a leader, it is important to understand the pulse of what is happening with one’s employees outside of their work.
– Both Sid and Gott have had personal life distractions that impacted the product they put on the court. There is no sense in rehashing either out of respect to all parties involved. No good will come of it. Both are now gone.
– Gott being gone has ZERO impact on DSJ. DSJ is going pro and has been after one year since before he ever signed with NC State. He’ll be a top 5 pick. He’d have been a top 5 pick out of high school and never attended college if not for the NBA’s rules. That’s not to say Dennis a bad kid, bad student, etc.. I have no reason to believe that. It’s just that he didn’t need college in any way to pursue professional employment in basketball. The only thing he needed to show the NBA was that his knee has recovered, and he’s clearly done that. DSJ being a one and done is at least part of the reason that Cat wasn’t here this year. There wasn’t enough “ball” for both of them.
– I personally think the one and done rule is awful. Let the kids go right out of high school if they want to. If the NBA is dumb enough to draft them and they bust out, then that’s on them. The college game is already trash compared to the NBA. Funneling kids through for one year isn’t improving the college game, though it does give the NBA a chance to “screen” some kids. Let the NBA screen kids in the DL, and let the kids focus on what they want to do (which for many has nothing to do with a degree).
– The timing is probably as good as it is going to get to get Arch. I personally thought it was better last year before he signed an extension at Dayton, but we decided to roll the dice and give Gott another go. I’d have loved to have seen what Arch could have done with this year’s roster. That could have spring boarded him to a monster recruiting class.
– If we don’t get Arch this time, we’re likely not getting Arch for the next 15 or so years. This is the window. We need to put forth an offer he can’t refuse. He’ll be in play at places like Ohio State, Indiana, Kentucky and Louisville very, very soon because there have already been rumblings with all four of those fan bases about him. He was already in play at Florida last year.
– If we don’t get Arch in this search, I’ll be sad but at peace with it because I’ll know that we tried. I’d have been done with NC State basketball if we’d have kept Gott another year and Arch ended up elsewhere this offseason.
– My read on Yow is that she cares a lot about her legacy. She wants a home run hire as badly as the fans do. She’ll go down swinging, even if it means a monster offer that might put us in a hole in the future.NCAA mess is crap spewed by our enemies to try and wreck our search. The timing is too clear. They’ve been after us since we exposed them. Fake news time. The supposed timelines don’t even make sense….
Bill: I’m with you on that narrative up until about it step 4. After that is a theory, but not one I’d subscribe to.
One has to think back to the series of events. After year 2, Gott blamed the players. Bad mix of kids, Tyler Lewis and his dad and Purvis and his mom were issues. Lewis was gone. Purvis lasted another year.
Then last year the narrative most of the year was Gott was caught off guard and short handed because of Lacey and then Henderson getting hurt. Not saying we’re blaming the players, but you know those were extenuating circumstances, and oh yeah I need some new staff. And did I mention that I have the “Rescue Squad” sitting over there? Gott tried this offseason to pull a Sendek and pair some incoming players with a change in assistants. Unfortunately for him, unlike Sendek, he didn’t overhaul things top to bottom.
As for this year, I don’t think Yow intended to fire him. She put at least one assistant on a 2 year deal. It just became so awful that her hand was forced.
Also, it falls down on Gott saying this was a young team and WTNY. This roster was only here one year. DSJ was a lottery pick before he stepped on the court and would be foolish not to cash in. If Yurt’s game had translated to the US, he could have feasibly only been here one year as well. Anya was a senior. Henderson may or may not get a 6th year. The window was now, as discussed before the season. It was clearly time to put up or shut up.
It’s over now and everyone can move on. The school can officially search. The players can play loose and for themselves. We can start re-recruiting them because they know they won’t be coached by Gott. Gott may actually feel the freedom to try some “crazy” things like full court presses, going 10 deep, etc. because what does he really have to lose? The fans can be civil. We will likely put a better product on the court.
No interim coach is needed or should be hired. That should only be done if one thinks they want the interim coach. What happens if that interim goes on a little run? Fools Gold given all the pressure is off. Just let Gott coach it out.
As for his tenure, it was a bad hire initially, but we got a couple of good seasons out of it. We ended up where I thought we’d be. Thanks goes to Gott and all those who were involved in the good years.
I hope we hire better this time. We hopefully have been working on this for a while.
The official firing takes the pressure off of Gott. Things will now be civil. No need for an interim. Heck, the team may play loose and for themselves and may actually win a game or two down the stretch.
As for the interview, Arch handled that extremely well. He said exactly what someone in his position should say. He’s obviously good with the media, but he also obviously cares about that senior class.
Don’t throw it to anyone. That is only done if one thinks there is a season to salvage, or that the person who it is thrown to might be a potential successor. This should be a complete flush with everyone involved (outside of the S&C coach) gone.
Roo: I think Schroyer was hired for defense as well as recruiting. He was known for running the defense at UNLV, and as a head man at Tenn-Martin his teams won on defense. Yes, he is supposed to be a good recruiter as well but I could see Gott saying that he made a hire aimed at his weakness (defense).
My concern is that our defense looked better in the two exhibitions than it did the rest of the year. Granted we were playing over matched opponents, but in those games we played the match up zone, looked quite aggressive and went very deep into the bench (fresh legs). The season started and we immediately went back to playing our awful version of man and playing a short bench. How much can an assistant do if the culture from the top doesn’t stress defense? When the assistant is putting in his defense and then the head coach seemingly ditches it in game one, what message does that send the players and staff?
This is part of why I don’t agree with the people who say to “hire Keats and then hire a defensive assistant.” Commitment to defense starts at the head man, and if he doesn’t value it, it’s not going to be fixed by hiring an assistant.
I have been disappointed in the hires this year though. I guess even great recruiters (which Butch Pierre and to a lesser extent Schroyer are supposed to be) have to have something to sell.
Arch is a hot commodity and will command a premium, particularly if Ohio State is in play. The chance to get Arch more reasonably was last year, and that’s why we should have moved then.
Anyone who thinks we are getting Greg Marshall needs their head examined. The Koch Brothers pay him handsomely, could pay him more if they wanted, and he has a private jet to use at his discretion. The only reason that we could outbid them is if they decided that Marshall just wasn’t worth it. That should stop and give one pause in and of itself. I personally think there is a lot of “noise” that comes with Marshall. Great coach, but is he worth it? I am not sure.
Roo: I wanted Few when we hired Sid. Going after him when Sid was fired was far too late, and it was clear it wasn’t going to happen then. I thought we had a good shot with Sean Miller last time, right up until Arizona killed Duke in the tournament. I knew right then that Sean was about to get paid, and that was that.
I tend to think we may be a year too late for Arch. This is why I was so vocal last year. That was before the extension at Dayton and before it looked like Ohio State might come open. We once again may have acted too slowly.
There are only three plausible sources for “the leak.” The source had to have been good enough to be believed. If intended and was done to help us contact other candidates, it is Yow or one of the associate ADs. If unintended, then it was Gott (or one of the assistants) or one of the UNC BOG types that sniffed it out or is involved in some way in the buy out. Yow and her team know whether it was intended, and really are the only ones who care. Something like this wasn’t going to stay under wraps.
I agree with whiteshoes that Arch doesn’t seem as tied to Sendek as he is to his dad, brother and Matta. If he won’t follow Sendek at State now that we are TWO coaches removed from him due to loyalty to his coaching tree, then he’s not following Matta at Ohio State. Yeah, Matta has some health issues, but they’ve been on him regarding performance despite results we’d build statues for here. If it is unfair here, then don’t go to Ohio State or Indiana (other job he supposedly favors).
chop is making valid points as to the reasons why it may not work out. I’ve always put it only at 50/50.
I agree with rick that Arch is going to hit it big at the next stop. I hope it is here.
If it’s not Arch, then the sun will rise and we will move on. There are a lot of coaches out there that are much better than Gott.
True or not, Goodman’s comments are a perfect smoke screen to take some pressure off of Arch. Shrugs.
Arch will come or he will not (and I really want him to come). I know we’re trying and getting out there early that is what matters. We’re moving before Ohio State and for once are showing signs of proactive management. We may not get him, but we’re certainly giving him something to really think about.
I do not at all understand the narrative about Arch being so loyal to Sendek that he wouldn’t take this job. He was an assistant under Matta and Ohio State is being far less reasonable towards a coach that has done far more than Sendek. Sendek left (wasn’t fired, and Fowler wasn’t going to fire him), and if the Ohio State job is open it will clearly be because the fans and administration have fun him off. If Arch takes the Ohio State job and not the NC State job (if both comes open), then logic should not connect it to loyalty to Sendek (though some of his supporters will still say it) and probably more connect it to a difference in something else (compensation, boss, or not wanting to move the family). If anything is true about the “Arch has reservations” rumors, the one that seems to have the most legs to me is not wanting to uproot his family.
As for Gott, I will never pull against State so I hope we beat UNC, but I have no issues with him being roundly booed, etc.. This year has been an epic display of failure and he’s been paid big $$$ to lead it. He gets what is coming to him. He could “resign” reduce his buy out and not have to be out there if he wanted.
Interims should only be used (IMHO) if you think you want to hire that person at the end of the season. What if the interim goes on a little run? We’ve underperformed at a level that I can’t even remember, but there’s still talent left on the roster. An interim might actually be able to squeak out a run.
No, I think the answer is to make the dog lay in the mess they made……
I’m pretty happy knowing he’s gone. Can’t figure why yall are running scared. Sounds like he was almost canned but wasn’t. They got the buyout together. Great! You all are assuming all kinds of negativity. Why bother?
Exactly. I don’t see the issue. Gott’s getting paid $$$$. He can show up and “coach.” Heck, she can pay me $1M to coach between now and the end of the season, and I’ll do all the press conferences as well. She can also fire me on national TV for all I care.
Think it will be ugly because of a leak? It was going to get ugly when we laid down, got blown out at home and the boo-birds came out. Now this may actually take some of the pressure off and the players can just go out and play.
Mark Few should have been in play two searches ago. In threads like this I floated his name and had many State fans tell me he wasn’t good enough.
He’s turned down UCLA, Oregon, Washington State and others. I wouldn’t be surprised if Berkeley didn’t reach out to him as well. No way he’s in play now, and can anyone get more obvious? It was like the Wake fans when they thought they were getting Brad Stevens.
Now I hear the same things about Arch (i.e. we should be after other “better” candidates). We’ve got to get out ahead and grab the candidate earlier as opposed to waiting too long. As it is, we may have waited a year too long (as I don’t think anyone really saw Ohio State possibly coming open last season). Arch has all the things to win really big at a high major. Back up the Brinks truck and make it happen.
While I think this is the move that has to be made, we’ll see in a few days or weeks. I’m not counting any chickens.
I’m not a fan of an interim in this instance. Interims have the potential to go on a little run and make everyone think there’s something there. That’s okay if many things are right with the program (I argued for an interim of Kitchings if we were making a move on DD) because I actually think much is right with the football program but much is wrong with the head man’s baffling in game decisions. In basketball, there’s currently nothing right with the program from a coaching element outside of S&C. We don’t need any Fool’s Gold.
chop: I think any candidates come with caveats. There’s no name that can be rolled out (short of resurrecting JimmyV himself) that there wouldn’t be counter points to. I get that you’re looking through things thoroughly, so here are some thoughts on your points:
1) Arch: Biggest concern if one sorts through the data is pace of place. The defense has significantly improved every year he’s been there, seemingly at the expense of offense but I think more at the pace of play. Will he run out or just pack it in like Bennett? The data suggests similarities to HWSNBN’s early years, but I’ve watched Dayton play quite a bit. They’re playing a very solid motion offense where the ball moves with the pass. HWSNBN played what I called a “four man stone” offense. Dayton is small and they don’t rebound that well, but they’re not conceding the offensive rebound (like HWSNBN’s Princeton offense teams did). But, by not getting those rebounds they don’t get a lot of those secondary attempts that are often higher percentage because the defense is out of position, which also results in fouls. Regardless, there’s enough there with the eye test, pedigree, data, etc. that this has to be the #1 target. I’d love to see what he could do with top level talent.
2) Hoiberg: I think you made the point that he did it at Iowa State. That’s like when Bennett did it at Wazzou. Those are some of the toughest Power 5 jobs. I think his style of play would be well received by NC State fans. I’m just not convinced he’s in play.
3) Cronin: I think you raise legitimate concerns about offense being the weakness and that becomes tougher in the tournament. Could he get better players here? I tend to think that answer is yes. He’s also had a lot of seasons where they were seeded in that 8-10 range, which makes for a tough second round game with a low predicted winning percentage. I like his toughness though. His teams aren’t going into Cameron or the Dean Dome and rolling over. They may start a fist fight, but they’re not laying down. We have lacked mental and physical toughness since V and that wouldn’t be a problem with Cronin.
4) Bennet: What he’s working with at St. Mary’s vs what any power 5 team is working with is night and day different. Don’t get me wrong, I prefer Few and have now since before we hired Sid. Few’s winning percentage against ACC teams is staggering. When we hired Sid, Few is the guy I’d have courted hard, but Few’s not leaving Gonzaga. He’s king of the campus and doesn’t have to deal with boosters. He’s not leaving despite every Pac 10 team coming after him. What Bennet has done year in and year out has been impressive (at least to me). If Few weren’t over there, he’d be ruling that league. It’s likely moot because he’s a West Coast guy, but he is someone I like and is a sleeper pick if one wants to go far afield.
5) Vinny: This is your “we’re lost in this search” level candidate. I personally don’t think we’d get past #3 on that list, but let’s say we did and Yow handles this one as badly as last time. We could do much worse than Vinny. Someone else asked why not Nate, and I’d prefer Nate, but he is coaching at the Pacers. Vinny is not currently a head coach. There are similar risks with them both, but I actually think Yow’s well positioned to put the team around a Vinny to help make him successful.
statered44: I like Collins best out of all the former K assistants. His dad was a great coach too and I think he has it in the blood. I think he or Brey is the next coach at Duke though, and there’s no way that Collins is taking any job that might take him out of the running for that. He’s got 2-4 more years of low pressure ball at Northwestern and maybe he shows enough to get that Duke job. I’m also not convinced given his love for Duke that he’s really going to go compete with them head to head very hard (or as hard as is needed). Collins at Duke and Arch at State would make the Tobacco Road interesting for years to come. Those stories just write themselves.
Frank Martin openly lobbied for the Miami job when Larranaga got it. There was evidently some bad blood with him and some of the Miami high school recruiting circles. Martin gets results, but there’s going to be a lot of “stuff” that comes with him. I personally think that he’s a guy that has to be “bigger than the program” and would put him in the same mold as Greg Marshall. I can’t see either of them at State working for Yow, and I can’t see NC State ever winning a bidding war with the Koch brothers for Marshall’s services.
My candidates:
1) Arch: Defense, pedigree, effort, alum, grinding teams, player development. All there. #1 candidate. Just need a job opening.
2) Hoiberg: Amazing job at Iowa State. His teams really were offensive juggernauts. I’m not quite sure of his job status with the Bulls, but if he is actually available, we should be on the phone right now.
3) Cronin: Don’t like his persona, but the man can coach and we have to be able to pay more than Cincy. Hard nosed defense, full court press, balanced scoring, and very tough. He was supposedly interested last time.
4) Randy Bennett (St. Mary’s): His teams are fundamentally sound, play hard and are good year after year, but are often short on talent. He’s got a very strong international pipeline but struggles a bit to recruit in the US. Take that same pipeline and pair it with 2 Adidas AAU top 50-75 type kids a year (which he could clearly get here) and he could be very good. Problem here is that he’s seemingly a west coast guy.
5) Vinny D.: That’s the oddball, flier type name and one that’s well down the list, but I always thought Vinny did a pretty good job. We could (and have) done much worse. I trust Deb to help him hire assistants and manage his transition to college coaching much better than Fowler did with Sid. I think he’d recruit well. This would be what people thought could happen with Sid if we hadn’t have hired one of the absolute worst coaches in NBA history (doubters should look up Sid’s record and compare it with Vinny).I think any from this list would be better than Gott, and I think if we worked this list we’d likely walk away with a coach.
Gott had a lot of baggage on and off the court when we hired him. A tiger doesn’t change its stripes. Given Yow’s known him since he was 18, she had to have known. Previous transgressions had to have been discussed minimally as part of the hiring process.
I’d guess he’s been as he’s been the entire time he was here (thus the divorce). The fact that people care now is because we’re not winning. Win big and no one cares what you do in your personal life, unless you use school resources to do so in a way that is so blatant that the administration had no choice (see Petrino at Arkansas). I personally do not care unless it’s illegal. The rumors are probably flying now because people want to “get right” with a decision that must be made. It’s stupid — the decision should be about performance and this is the 4th year under Gott we’ve clearly under performed. That alone should be enough for a pink slip, regardless of other “noise.” Now if it makes the buy out cheaper, then that’s just the politics that come with big $$$$.
I personally believe that Lowe’s firing was know at least a week before the actual announcement. The other site (which often times directly reflects the “position” of the AD) had a front page article posted that said as much with about that timing. I didn’t think Sid was a good coach, thought he was a horrible program steward and felt like it was time for it to end, but he was one of us and I felt deserved respect. When I called them on it, they made up some garbage excuse like it was just linked content that they couldn’t control, but then it was taken down within a couple of hours. They knew.
Roo: Like you, I was a big Lutz fan. My opinion wasn’t based on any insider knowledge. It was more based on what Lutz had done at Charlotte (pretty nice job with a lot less resources) vs what Gott had done at Alabama (which I had kept up with decently well). I thought when we hired Lutz would have been the better head man and Gott the better assistant (ace recruiter, players friend type coach) and was vocal about that. Took some heat (some here mostly elsewhere). I said last year and then around the firing that the wrong man left. I think it is obvious now that is the case and that the emporer has no clothes.
I will say I have been incredibly disappointed by the defense here. Schroyer had won on defense at Tenn-Martin and I personally never thought of Lutz as a great defensive coach (Iowas State had him coaching shooting). We actually looked like we might try to play some during the two exhibitions. I have no clue what happened, but we gave that up in game one and really haven’t tried since, or maybe it was too little too late when we did. All I can figure is that it is hard as an assistant to get a team to play D if the head man isn’t committed and doesn’t control PT that way. Good D isn’t incentivized. It mere becomes something the assistant nags about.
Oh well. Hopefully the “important people” have seen enough. I had at this time last year, but Gott was given one more chance. Last year he had hope (incoming players) and a scapegoat (assistants). With a good manager, he’d have nothing this year.
From what I can tell, Packfanistan is no lover of Gott. He is a lover of NC State who likes to see it positively. That’s okay by my book.
I think the point of the post is clear. The last two years are about as bad as Sid’s last two. His last 5 are worse than HWSNBN’s last 5 and his total tenure is probably worse than HWSNBN’s last 6.
It was time for Sid and HWSNBN to go when they did. Yow showed one of them the door, and with a much more promising roster coming back than what Gott will have if he is coach next year. Time to hold her guy to the same standards.
