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That extension and reworking his contract from incentives based to more base was just baffling to me. The only way it is going to work with a guy like Gott is to keep him very hungry. I had hoped UCLA would hire him, but knew they weren’t that dumb or desperate.
I’m with Bill. This season has been over since the 51 point loss to UNC. Everything that happened since then just removed all doubt for some. I’m sorry for the players that they dealt with this circus, but am glad it is finally over.
I agree with BJD regarding Gott’s tenure. That first Sweet 16 gave him a mulligan in year two when we laid a giant egg. The second one, and four tournaments allowed us to forgive that we squandered the ACC POY who was a legacy recruit and the best player to come through in a decade. The first 4 years and the recruiting class got him this season, and a refresh of assistants. This season finally removed all doubt.
I’m still okay with Yow letting Gott stay on. There was talent on this team. The last thing we needed was an interim going on a little run and then people buying into the Fool’s Gold. Gott made sure that there was no revival, though I’ll admit that back to back Clemson losses kind of surprised me. That must be how badly the players want this to be over.
What I’m not fine with is Gott running his trap and playing his games. Maybe Yow now sees him for what he is, and will be harder in negotiations with him. Some of the things he’s said to the press could be argued as “damaging.”
Troll: Go find the posts from the hire. I recently pulled up and email I sent to packi when we made that hire. Pretty much nailed it.
Year one was Gott’s best year. It was also the year Harrick was most active, he inherited a strong team, there was a lot of focus, and he was on an incentives heavy contract. So I hoped after year 1 I was wrong.
Just like with Lowe it was obvious very early in year two which way it was going to go. The guy just couldn’t run out front. There are just some that can’t.
Now that he’s divorced and his kids of college age or beyond, he’ll be rich, not have to work, in shape and is a smooth talker. McC’s lifestyle doesn’t sound so bad to me if that were my situation.
Gott was a horrible hire from the start. Some of us were vocal from the second it was announced. What amazed me is how long it took for many to see it.
Typical NC State in 2016-2017. That game was very winnable, and the opponent not that good, but we lost and didn’t look doing it. It looks like one to two more games and this is done because we won’t finish with enough wins for any postseason play.
The contrast between our game and Dayton/VCU was staggering. Our game looked like it was played in quick sand. Dayton and VCU really got after it and at a much higher pace of play (and with more sense of urgency).
I wasn’t excited about the Lowe hire but hoped that maybe his NBA connections would help him recruit. He could legitimately go into a kid’s home and say “I’ve spent the last 15 years coaching in the NBA and know how it works.” That’s a powerful message. The red flags were his actual coaching resume, the quick turnaround that Hubie Brown did at Memphis with Sid’s last team, his lack of college experience and the need to get up to speed with things like compliance, etc.. Assistants were going to be important, and while we put a bunch of guys that cared about NC State on the bench, they were all associated with losing programs. It was a high risk approach, and one to me that looked like Fowler trying to buy some time to get out of town ahead of the lynch mob.
I too was excited during that first ACC Tournament run under Sid. I thought that maybe we had something there and that the regular season was just the players and Lowe learning how to mesh. I remember the game against Rider in the NIT at Reynolds was as loud as games of old.
Unfortunately, it was clear by the beat downs in year 2 that we did not. When Michigan State absolutely crushed us in the ACC/BIG10 game, I knew something was terribly wrong. When we turned around and lost to ECU, it was clear that the ACC Tournament run was the anomaly, not the bad losses.
By the end of year 3, that experiment should have been over. We gave Sid 2 more years, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary and there were some that wanted to give him a 6th season. He’s exhibit A of why NC State is incredibly patient with coaches.
Sid wasn’t a good hire and that nothing to do with whether or not he had an undergraduate degree. He had zero college coaching experience, no college recruiting experience and a spotty NBA track record as a head man. He jumped at the chance at a big time head coaching gig and I don’t blame him. It was a chance to resurrect his career and to get paid handsomely to do it. I’d have done the same. If there’s blame there it is for Fowler in hiring him.
DD was a solid hire, particularly given our spot in the pecking order. We were going to roll the dice with that one and took a chance with an up and comer. Heck, we did better than LSU did IMHO. Not all hires that look good on paper end up turning out that way. Shrugs.
The process for the DD hire was a good one. It was far better than the processes that brought us our previous two basketball coaches. This search is looking more like the one that brought us DD than the one that brought us Gott, and it is clear that Yow learned something out of the last go around (e.g. quote about not waiting until the Final Four this time). I have confidence that we’ll land what at least on paper will look like a better hire than Sid or Gott.
BJD is right though. I think Arch has to be the #1 candidate, but regardless of who we trot out, that “will have been a guy we’ve zeroed in on for a while.” That statement can be made with some semblance of truth given how far out ahead we are and how early we are vetting candidates.
StateRed: I’m not saying it’s Arch. I’m just saying I see enough positive vibes to think we’re not ending up with a Line 4 candidate.
I’m not as concerned as I was about a week ago. I’ve heard multiple Arch interviews and he’s not fully shut it down in a way that if he definitely wasn’t coming, that he would. He’s handled the media very well.
Also, the person who was kind of vocal has kind of clammed up. It doesn’t mean they they think they were wrong or that they don’t still think what they posted. It could just be that the poster is on vacation on a beach drinking pina coladas. That could be another explanation. 😀 It’s just that they’re not as vocally adamant in the same way, and with a story that was incredibly plausible. That means SOMETHING has changed.
We’ll see. These are exciting times. I believe that Yow will see this hire as part of her legacy and genuinely believe that she wants it to be a good one. Whether she initiated or was brought along by those above her, either way she did fire Gott. The “coach out the season” thing may be part of her relationship management with him. Regardless, she has done something I wasn’t convinced she’d do, so I have hope that she’ll surprise me with a well executed search that lands a 1-3 line candidate.
StateRed: I’m in agreement. I’m hoping it is 1A or 1B, that we have a legit 2 line. I can live with the current 3 line candidates (Wade/Keatts), and think they’re better than what we’ve done the last two hires. While the 3 line comes with risk and won’t win the press conference in the same way, they likely will be better than Lowe and Gott.
I’m just hoping there isn’t an out of left field, 4 line candidate. That’s been our last two hires and we’ve seen what that gets us.
I’m happy to do my part for the good karma and let bygones be bygones. Let’s just stick to topic moving forwards.
Roo: Good post that is on topic. Thanks. No one is here to discuss politics.
Sincerely,
Your SnowflakeRoo: I’m not seeing the relevance in Trump and his first weeks to a discussion regarding Gott’s performance over the past 6 years. Well, unless you are comparing the lack of support from the general population in both.
I don’t think you play on heart strings, a spouse or anything like that. If Arch wants to be here, he will come as long as we show him we’re serious about him being here (good offer, not some Fowler nonsense). If we don’t or just doesn’t want this job, he will not. If not, I hope he lets Yow know early so we can quickly move on.
The Fighting Archies of Dayton survived cold shooting, missed lay ups and free throws, yet clawed back from 13 down based on defense, hustle and some coaching adjustments to beat McKillup’s team in Davidson tonight in OT. Dayton was down 7 with 4 minutes, got a 2 for 1 possession wise at the end of the half and forced a stop when Davidson was trying to run it out. Frankly there was more heart, hustle and heady play than I’ve seen out of State all year.
Oh well….
There’s one poster who seemingly isn’t close to the AD’s office, who I trust, and who seems to be close to Arch or his family. He had a lot of personal information and insight into the Millers’ family life. This poster said it wasn’t happening and laid out pretty decent logic (that honestly wasn’t negative in any way towards NC State). I hope he’s wrong, but the sun will rise the next day if someone else is hired.
I just hope that Yow knows the truth regarding the top candidates on her list. Given we’ve hired from “tier 4” the last two times, no name would really surprise me. I just want to see us run a professional search, not the circuses from the last two times. If that means we as fans get nothing, and just banter names back and forth with one another for the next month, that’s frankly perfect.
This will be a long month. I think most people will settle down and it will be fairly quiet until the tournament starts. Then it will be a weekend by weekend watch once candidates’ teams are eliminated (much like what happened when we hired Amato).
tvp1: Miller is either the world’s best smokescreen and we’ll be shocked on the day it is announced, or it is that he’s just not coming (for whatever reason). While I’d love for it to be the former, Occam’s Razor suggests it is the latter.
We the general public will know in a month. Hopefully Yow already knows definitively.
I checked out Holtmann’s 3 years against Power 5 teams:
2014-15: 3-4 (including a win against #5 UNC)
2015-16: 3-2
2016-17: 5-0I prefer Holtmann over Cronin as I look at this data more. He’d be my 2 line and I’d be very happy if we hired him.
Rye – how much of that is due to his conference though? He has elite takent for his conference. How will he handle being on the other side of that equation.
In 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13, Cincy was in the Big East. That league was stronger than the ACC those seasons. The Big East put 4 teams into the Final Four during that period and had a title winner. The ACC didn’t have a single FF team.
During that period Cronin was 11-7, 12-6 and 9-9 in league play. Against Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville and ND, they were 1-4, 4-2 and 1-5. Against the ACC during that period, they were 1-0 beating FSU in the tournament.
My take? Inconclusive, but at least he has experience and some track record of playing against heavyweights. Those line 3 candidates have not.
Want to see something gaudy? Check out Arch or Marshall’s records against Power 5 leagues.
For me, my definition of can’t miss is a guy who is going to get us consistently in the top 25, year in and year out, and all season long. I think Cronin and that defense will be able to do it, particularly with the players he can recruit here. He’s doing it this year with one of our castoffs (Washington) and a guy that we were too big for (Clark) as his top 2 players. I remember his teams smacking us around at least once.
He’s a line 2 candidate though. I’d much rather have Miller or Marshall (if either will actually come). Having said that, we’ve gone with line 4 candidates the last two searches, so Cronin would be a better hire than we made the last two times, and a lower risk hire than Sendek was (his hire was a lot of how I view Wade and Keatts).
I see a lot of risk with Wade and Keatts. Maybe they hit big, but maybe they’re the next DD. Listening to a recent interview with Wade, he seems a lot like Pastner did to me about 5-6 years (a young wonder kid coach that is likely to burn out or Peter out).
I like Holtmann and Cronin more than Wade or Keatts. That’s why I list them as hopeful candidates on the 2 line.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that Wade or Keatts may end up working out, but nothing about either of them says “can’t miss.” I think with what I’ve seen out of Holtmann and Cronin, we’ll meet my goals for this program — take the next step to be a consistent top 25 team all year, year in and year out and be a team that can beat anyone on any night, while throttling lower tier opponents.
We need a massive influx in killer instinct because we’ve had virtually none since V. The good news is that 1A/1B, 3A/3b and my hopefuls on the 2 line all have it. With anyone on that list, NC State would be something like this:
I don’t want you to be the guy in the PG-13 movie everyone’s *really* hoping makes it happen. I want you to be like the guy in the rated R movie, you know, the guy you’re not sure whether or not you like yet. You’re not sure where he’s coming from. Okay? You’re a bad man.
I’d agree that I don’t think that Marshall is in play. Sadly what I’m hearing about Archie suggests he might not be either.
I’d hope there’s something between the 1a/1b candidates and the 3a/3b candidates. Both Keatts and Wade come with some significant risk. There have to be people like Cronin that sit in between that we should discuss.
Thanks BJD. Appreciated as always. I enjoy the site and the way you guys run it.
On topic, I think we as a fan base have kind of zeroed in on grouping candidates:
1a) Miller
1b) Marshall3a) Wade
3b) Keatts4) Other
Is there a tier 2 in there? Are guys like Cronin and Holtsmann actually in play?
Troll: We’re here to talk NC State sports. If you guys want to talk politics, create a thread and take it there. It is at a bare minimal off topic in this thread. Simple as that.
If there is a party over reacting here it is seemingly the defender of the faith, not the ones asking people to keep it on topic. That’s some SFN styled truth.
What’s with the whiny complaining about Roo? He’s always posted that way while at the same time still contributing.. who cares? Get to your safe space or keep on scrolling.
It’s like your drunk Uncle who shows up at the family gathering having already had a few and with a flask in the pocket. They contribute but eventually it gets old, particularly when they show up that way for a serious event.
On topic, if a coach produced V like results, we wouldn’t just “generally be happy.” We’d build a statue, hang his name in the rafters and Yow would probably name the court after him.
I do agree though that “making the NCAA tournament” is a fairly low bar for an ACC school. Heck, 3/5 of the league is going to do it this year. It’s like the “two Sweet 16s in 5 years” argument. Guess what? I checked and 26 schools had done it and we were the one with the LEAST continuous success over that period. I’d much rather be a regular season top 25 stalwart. Success breeds success, recruiting gets easier, players stay, pipelines get developed and eventually one will break through and win something meaningful (ACC regular season or tournament championship, Final Four or National Title).
