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Ummm, sorry, but TOB had at best a mediocre performance with two NFL starting QBs and some decent defensive players. With Pete Thomas (4 TDs 9 Ints) Ain’t no way we would have had a win last year, and JB would NOT have transferred to State and just who in heck do you think would be playing QB this year? TOB wouldn’t even have 4 wins this year. I’ll pose that he wouldn’t have 4 wins in the two years. Nope, ain’t no way I’m buying that load of …
Yogi, Why don’t you tell us what you really think? 🙂 I hadn’t thought about it but I think you might be right. 4 wins in 2 years, 24 games, without a conference win is about right.
But let’s stay in the present and worry about winning a couple of conference games this year and being bowl eligible.
With tob, we’d have more wins but no hope. With dd, I have hope but no wins…
You said in one pithy sentence what I’ve been trying to say in 2000 words or less. No doubt DD is trying to win but not at the expense of teaching and training.
I’ve got this feeling in my gut that we are going to see much better defense going forward than we’ve seen this or last season. It’ll be interesting to see if Fernandez and Moore get on the field at the same time. They are our best 2 LB’s IMO.
PS
2 very good teams filled with talent, FSU and Clemson, fell way off their pace without their great QB’s. I say this to emphasize how detrimental it was to not have a good QB last year. All clear thinking fans expect Jacoby Brissett to win 2 out of the next 4 games — if not more. “More” would be eweNC and if there really is a god…0-12 is pretty dang awful and while maybe only a couple are truly awful most teams will occasionally win one they should not.
Absolutely! Most straight thinking fans would agree with that. Without a QB with the skill set to run the spread offense, it is also not unreasonable to expect those loses.
Doeren choose to go the “install our offense” route over temporarily installing an offense that was more suited to Pete Thomas’s skill set. IMNSHO It’s also telling that Thomas’s competition for the job was a ex-WR — who was doing pretty well until he got injured.
As you know from the length and frequency of my posts, I sure do love talking Wolfpack football. Again Rick, thanks for the conversation. I see your point and I hope I’ve been clear with mine.
I have stated repeatedly TOB left DD with very little talent
No disagreement here.
It seems to be a normal, and frankly reserved, reaction from a fan base to one and a half seasons without a conference win.
Would it be “viable and reasonable” to discuss the loses where we were favored by outside observers. Lumping in loses to the National Champion and other teams in and out of the top 25, teams with more talent, doesn’t seem reasonable at all to me.
Talent is certainly a factor in these losses but the arguments made on here are that talent is not the only factor in our losses.
Talent is not the only factor, just the dominant factor.
And I think that is a very viable and reasonable stance at this point in time.
I see three possible reactions to such an awful record1) shrug your shoulders and go oh well (which seems to me would be the worst reaction)
2) Get mad
3) Discuss why it is happening. Which is what we are doing.Some are discussing why it is happening, others are just pointing their fingers at the W/L record and repeatedly saying “how awful” it is and the W/L is all that matters. In Doeren’s 4th and 5th year that WILL BE all that matters. But not now. Not while he is installing his offense and defense. Not while he is bringing in new talent.
Michigan brought in the Fab 5 and turned its basketball program completely around in a year. Doeren would have to bring in the Fab 50 to completely turn this program around in a year.
I think what bothers me the most about the viable and reasonable stance many are taking is the implication that all 12 conference loses are of equal measure. No? Then why keep referring to that “awful record” when only one or 2 are awful? I’m not shrugging my shoulders and going, “Oh well,” I’m granting the staff a reasonable and viable amount of time to turn this ship around. In the mean time I’m looking for signs that it’s happening and for signs that they are making the changes necessary to make it happen.
And I’m saying that Debbie Yow and others consider Dave Doeren to be a viable and reasonable upgrade and until proven wrong, I’m going along with that point of view. I acknowledge that it’s a viable and reasonable point of view to withhold judgment until he proves them right.
Rick and others, thanks for the conversation. I’ve tried to keep myself under control while participating. 🙂
Your observations or Yogi’s prognostications are great but they are irrelevant in that the way you measure a team’s success are with wins.
You are talking about team success, Yogi (and I) are talking about coaching upgrade as measured by 1.) Players and coaches liking to work with Amato and 2. Out working TOB. If we were talking about team success, and we weren’t, I’d agree with you. Since you don’t see the difference, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Sh*t foose, we need to get on the same thread, lol. I just wrote a ton on the game day thread — mostly talking to myself but in response to Chop. In part dealing with the dynamics of the D coaching and possibly how DD interfaces with Hux. To accomplish what he wants to accomplish on defense, he is going to have to design the defense himself. Hux can’t do it. For now I’m cutting him some slack while he gets it all organized or whatever you would call it.
DD needs one of those “Associate Head Coaches” or something like that. I doubt we can afford all that he needs right now . I really believe those days are coming when we will want to pay what needs to be paid. Doeren is smart enough to know this and work within the boundaries until we get there. I’ve said ‘This ain’t Kansas, Tocho.’ Well, this ain’t Alabama either.
One more thing about Canada, I believe he is forward thinking enough to keep evolving our offense as defenses catch up — and they will. I think Doeren is bright enough to do this with the defense. I don’t think Hux is but Hux may serve a different role. Maybe it’s more management of the defense and coaches than creating. Hux does a good job if firing up the players or it appears he does. I don’t really know. Off the subject but I think that’s what or how Archer and Tenuta got along so well. One was the brains and one was the manager. I don’t have to tell you which I think was which, do I? 😉
Grey – I hope you are correct. You’ve definitely pushed your chips all in.
Honestly, Chop, I had rather push them in and be wrong, than be a half-assed supporter and be right. I value loyalty and I like to think I give it. I know I’m wrong to be this way but it bothers me to be on a State fan site and read put-downs, jokes at my team’s expense and lack of support in general. Expressions of like, dislike, etc., I’m Okay with. I’m fine with criticism of our coaches and teams as long as it’s respectful. I think it’s being from another era and not being part of the internet culture.
But the key to coaching is to maximize the results. If you look like a genius 3 games, look like an idiot 3 games, and split the rest…you’re no different than your last 3 predecessors.
Agree over the long haul but not while DD is installing both new offenses and defenses — with a boat load of freshmen in key positions.
Allow me an analogy. I know of an American figure skater some years ago who was ranked 5th in the world. This skater went to a cutting edge coach for help. That coach asked what the skater wanted. He said, ‘I want to be a better skater.’ Where are you ranked now? ‘5th’ was the reply. Oh I see, you want to be ranked 4th. Our skater friend screwed up his courage and said for the first time in his life, ‘I want to be Number One.’ It takes courage to say you want to be Numero Uno. Doeren has said he is coming here and intends to be National Champion. I don’t believe I have EVER heard one of our football coaches say that.
This is long but there’s more to the story. The skater started working with the coach and immediately started falling as he pressed the envelope trying the what-ever-you-call-them skater tricks. He had to be willing to fail before he could extend himself to do the championship stuff. Maybe the analogy is not right on but it’s close enough.
Canada started putting in offense that is of the stuff that with the right personnel will produce championship results — or at least he and DD think it will. Doesn’t matter yeah or nay. They are willing to risk it. The one time Canada was turned loose, when the Wisconsin coach left for Arkansas, his offense rolled up 70 verses Nebraska. It isn’t just the X’s and O’s, you have to have the horses to run and the big uglies to block. But the results are beyond whatever else is being run. Wisconsin got passing game results running the football. I think West Virginia did the same thing to Clemson.
On the other side of the ball we changed a little more slowly. We started putting in the “stop the spread’ defense. I don’t expect many if any of the recruits ran this in high school so there is a big learning curve. Like the skater we started failing almost immediately. I’d like to think we are now doing some of those championship “maneuvers.” It looked like it at times on Saturday. I also believe it is easier to teach the freshmen than it is the upperclassmen. Not as much to ‘unlearn.’
I had a little back and forth with foose about Doeren calling the timeout on defense and calling another when the D wasn’t set like he wanted it. foose rightly said that the punt block should have been handled by the special teams coaches at the half or between punts or some such valid observation. Distinct from that what I appreciated was Doeren’s willingness to burn a timeout to make a coaching point that likely will impact the defense down the road.
Doeren fools me with his looks. He doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer but I really believe he may be one of the brightest bulbs on the coaching tree. I suspect that the coaches are all going through a learning experience. Some say we should have hired a coach who has already gone through that learning curve. I ask is what they have learned or experienced sufficient to achieve Doeren’s stated goal of winning a NC? I’d say ‘not likely.’
I give Debbie Yow a lot of credit here. She believes in Doeren and is backing him apparently 100% as she strives to have NCSU have a top rated Athletics Program over all sports. Our chancellor, Randy Woodson, appears to be playing full out to have North Carolina State University be at the top as well. None of these goals are short term and it takes guts to be willing to fail in an effort to achieve them. I call it a game worth failing. IOW worth going for even if you don’t make it. I hope the fans, alumni and supporters don’t flinch along the way.
Chop, I expect you’ve fallen asleep or just quit reading this long-winded babble. I mostly wrote it for myself hoping to understand what I believe Doeren is doing. If you stayed with it, thanks. If not… I can’t fault you there.
However, I like the courage dd showed by suspending
78 for this gameAlston, Fernandez, Justin Jones, Josh Jones, McKever, Ramos and Stevens for 1 game and TY McGill for 2 games due to a separate violation of team rules.
I do think sometimes this staff outthinks themselves.
I hear a lot about Canada “out thinking” himself or as you put it outthinks themselves. That may be true for the current roster.
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Continuing this line of thinking, a lot of us say we “don’t understand” what he is doing as if that makes the play calls unwise or wrong. Comments like “Dumbest call I’ve ever seen” abound.What is it that we want? Canada to “dumb down” the offense so we can understand it? Be less creative in the play calling so that the calls fit inside our knowledge base?
Matt Canada is here because Doeren believes Canada is the coach to take us where we all want to go. I am amazed at the patience that both Canada and Doeren demonstrate in installing our offense. We saw a pass play out of the Wildcat Saturday after 20 games. To paraphrase a wine commercial, ‘They will call no play before it’s time.’
Our coaches are recruiting players with the skills and smarts to understand and execute those plays plays we don’t understand.
I assert that in our 4th year going forward we won’t be making the mistakes that are costing us first downs and defensive stops. Our innovative offense will be giving opposing DC’s sleepless nights and headaches.
And if Saturday verses L’ville is any indication our defense is going to complement our offense very nicely. And we getting the studs in the pipeline to make the defense dominant.
I’ve watched DD. He’s the HEAD COACH. Perhaps he’s sometimes too busy micro managing and coaching players on the field when he should be doing more head coaching stuff, for example, communicating with his special teams coach concerns he has about the punt formation so that the next time the punt unit goes out onto the field, the concerns have already been addressed and the adjustments already made.
foose, it’s highly likely you are right on about this. I see it in video of practice as well. Not so much with the offense but with the defense. In due time if this issue is not corrected, Doeren will lose good defensive assistants.
My post was more directed to the actual need to call timeouts, but did not address the overall picture.
This isn’t Pee Wee football in the Faison Church League.
I would like to watch one of those games.
foose, you are as big a smart-arse as I am. 😉
It is one thing to watch film during the week and it is another to see what has been working in the game.
Wulfpack, I think we might agree on more than we do know if we were standing chatting.
Huxtable was moved up to the press box and Doeren handled the defense from the sideline. I can’t help but wonder if something like this would work better for the offense if Canada was up in the box. Maybe Kitchens on the sideline. I have know way of knowing but Canada may be over-coaching Brissett during the game.
Yogi says:
Over Chuck cause nobody wanted to work or play for him, and TOB because he didn’t work hard enough (Recruiting IS one of your 3 main responsibilities). Say what you want but to me DD is an upgrade.Hard to say DD is an upgrade at this point. He may be but he has to win some games before that statement can be made.
Rick, I’d be a little embarrassed to think that winning was the only measurement of upgrade. I think Yogi’s the statement was made based on the points he noted, not wins. Like a “Pre-season Poll” I’ll add my 2 cents and say that by all indications including wins, Doeren will be found to be an improvement over all who have coached football at NC State with the possible exception of Dick Sheridan and Earl Edwards. That “all” includes Lou “just here to use North Carolina State University as a stepping stone” Holtz.**
**Earl Edwards accomplished more with less than any coach ever at State. Sheridan didn’t have to recruit to and play in Riddick Stadium or play eweNC home games over on Brokeback Hill. All Earl did was win multiple ACC Championships and be ranked as high as #3 in the nation.
Greywolf-what got us to the half yard line was Thorton.
Goal line defense is more difficult to run against. Even our goal line defense was difficult to run against.
The last thing you want to do is roll out against defensive speed. You run at speed or over it. It was 1st and goal not 3rd and goal so I think he gets a jab at the end zone. So yes, I stand by what I stated before. Now that I cleared that up, What else can I do for you? Oh! Shall we talk about how our QB blew that play?
I believe your adage about running at speed etc., loses its value on the goal line. That’s the problem with generalities. I also don’t think Brissett was rolling out to run although I have no way of knowing. Another way of attacking both strength and speed is to go over top of it which I believe we were trying to do.
If we had run Thornton on 1st down or 1st and 2nd down, I would have been OK with that. I actually like smash-mouth football when we have the studs to play that way. While studying film on Lville defense, Canada probably thought passing was our best shot which is why I was also OK with a short pass in the end zone. IMO A play isn’t necessarily wrong because it doesn’t work.
And since you offered, you could explain why Brissett didn’t throw it away when he didn’t have a receiver open. I would have to see the film to even make a guess as to what went wrong on that play. For Brissett to get sacked somebody or bodies likely missed a block.
and yesterdays play selection with 1st and goal at the half yard line will be one I soon hope to forget.
In an earlier series when Lvile was 1st and goal on the 1 and a half yard line, we – one of the worst defenses in the country according to the stats wizards – stopped them for a yard loss. Earlier in the year GSU I believe fumbled on the one yard line which we recovered and subsequently won by one point.
We have an O line that was getting their asses handed to them all game by the #1 defense in the country and our OC didn’t think running would have the same chance for success as a short pass. Running also risked a lose of yardage. Running also risked a fumble. Unfortunately our QB once again tried to make something out of nothing and was sacked. Every Pack fan knows that Doeren has said he doesn’t need our QB to win the game, just don’t lose it. Had he hit a receiver for a TD or thrown it away, would this have been a play that you — and others — would like to forget? I didn’t think so.
This is the same OC that was doing things to Lville offensively that few other teams had done. Do the expected against good teams and you will get shut down. You must try the unexpected sometimes if you expect to succeed.
So, take a deep breath, say another “Amen” and forget about it. The call wasn’t a bad call at all. It was poorly executed and violated the coaching points he has been repeatedly given. If we had any other option at QB, Jacoby would be sitting watching. (Ever wonder why he wasn’t starting at Florida and felt the need to transfer?)
It has historical significance.
Did you mean to type hysterical? If not could you explain the historical significance? The reason I ask is I don’t hear a lot about Duke’s “historical” significance of their past in either football or basketball — or any other team that rises out of the ashes. So what is this mysterious “historical” significance? Other than give “hysterical” fans something to bellyache about?
If we were regularly losing games we were favored to win, I and others who aren’t now concerned would be, but not because of some mysterious “historical” or any other kind of “significance.”
I really like Doeren but he deserves criticism when it’s needed (an I really like the guy). He still needs it…
Perhaps you could explain to an old country boy like me, why does Doeren need criticism over and over, week after week? I’d grant that we could have beaten Wake last year. The rest of those horrible, despicable, detestable, retched loses were games that knowledgeable people expected the Pack to lose. (Maybe not by those who judge a team’s strength by name recognition, i.e., “No way we should lose to BC, MD, Duke, UNC,” etc.)
Were we expecting Doeren to come in and wave a magic wand? As I understand it, he is known to be an excellent recruiter. I don’t think Debbie was expecting a miracle worker.
O for 8 conference loses last year. O for 4 that nobody in his right mind expected anything more this year. We are entering the part of the schedule where we can reasonably expect a win or 2 or 3 and maybe 4. We are coming into the time where we can judge accurately who well DD is going to do. If he loses the games he is favored in, jump on his ass. Until then STFU.
We (basketball) aren’t the doormat that is now Wolfpack football
That’s a fair comparison? Our basketball team has won 2 national championships, our football team has hardly seen the top 25. Our basketball team plays in a league of national champions, our football team plays in a league of mostly also-rans. Our basketball coach inherited a team of fairly good, if not very good, players. Our football coach inherited a team of average players at best.
I think we are exceeding expectations. Who would have thought we would have given the Noles the game we gave them or L’ville? Anybody that knew anything about BC lost his mind thinking we were equal in talent. They are ranked #11 on defense. They did beat USC.
However, he can’t continue to be winless in the ACC. Cut it how you want, say what you want and make every excuse possible….bottom line it will not fly for long.
Is anyone saying it will last for long? Is being one of the Power-5 teams with the least talent is an excuse? Perhaps the Pack coulda, shoulda, woulda beat Wake. That’s one out of 8. If we had beaten Wake, would that have made one modicum of difference as far as our team development is concerned?
What I don’t understand is the continuous harping on the conference W/L record. Oh I get acknowledging it. I get being disappointed but I don’t get the significance of it. Do we forfeit scholarships? Do we get fined?
Even high school boys are smarter than most of us who are making the same comments week after week about it. Ole Loser Doeren has signed the #1 rated defensive player in the state his 2 years here. More top ranked players are seriously considering NC State than ever before. From what I heard yesterday we signed some outstanding freshmen last year. So I say those high school players see something we can’t or don’t want to see.
The 0’fer will end, probably sooner than later. In the meantime as Richard Pryor told Bill Cosby, “Have a Coke and a smile and shut the f*ck up.” (when Cos’ was complaining about raw language.) The same complaints about the same sh*t, gets old.
Greywolf lose your tag for christ sake… <snip> Just a bunch of frustrated life long fans and alumnus
I “lost the tag.” I was actually acknowledging life long fans by calling out trolls as “rams in wolf clothing.” Frustrated? Get over it and be a man. I love my wife but making cutting remarks and jokes at her expense is a damned poor way of showing it.
Complaints about the play? Have at it. Complaints about the coaching? Go ahead — like we know better than career coaches. Criticize if we must but as long as they are coaching the Pack, let’s extend courtesy if not respect. Do that and I’ll permanently “lose the tag.”
He’ll have more of my sympathy (like that’s important) – if he doesn’t throw his players under the bus.
I’m with you 100% on that. So far he’s clean. The biggest was when one of the players called for that fake punt last year and Doeren never said a word about it being a player. Attitude usually flows from the top. Canada took 100% responsibility for the lousy offense these last to games. Doeren before him took responsibility for not having the team ready to play.
Chop, I expect if we were having a conversation about this immediate and even the larger subject, we would be in agreement in principle. I’m long winded — I like to think of it as “thorough” 😉 — and sometimes I’m talking in general when I started out answering your comment. Sorry about that. I do like going back and forth with you and some others. It’s both enjoyable and educational for me.
I suspect there are plenty of coordinators out there who could get more out of that roster.
I think the question is, how many of that “plenty of coordinators” are available and at what price?
Let’s look at the roster those DC’s would be working with starting with the LB’s.
1. starting JR MLB, MJ Salahuddin, injured before season — Out for the season
2. 23 y.o. freshman LB, Ty Linton, injured before fall camp — Out for the season
3. R-FR scholarship LB, Artemis Robinson, injured before season — Out for the season
4 & 5. 2 FR being red shirted, Coult Culler & Max Stoffer
This Saturday Bradley Chubb, recruited and listed as a DE, will be backing up true freshman, Airius Moore, who is replacing suspended Jarod Fernandez.Likewise, if he can’t win more than 2 conference games in his next 13 – I suspect he’ll be fired.
And I suspect the buy-out is big enough that he won’t. IMO nothing will happen no matter how bad the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year are if we have a good 4th year and a great 5th year. If we fire Doeren after 3 years, I hate to think about trying to hire a quality HC to replace him. We fans may not know our asses from holes in the ground but you can bet that veteran coaches no how difficult winning with little talent can be,
Right now I’m not concerned about the future. I do get weary of the hand-wringing and the conference loss countdown like we were counting Brissett’s streak of no-INTs or something. After going 3-9 last year, we lost to FSU, Clemson and BC, well duh! What’s the big surprise? We are playing Louisville this week. Would you be surprised if we didn’t win? Me either. I think we got a chance to win Syracuse and Wake Forest. Since this is the Recruiting: the lost years impacting the current years I shouldn’t have to tell you why that’s all I’m expecting.
I got off track there. Sorry. All indications are that this conversation will get us a good laugh in the coming years.
But in the bigger picture, I agree that you need an attacking defense. Whether or not you can successfully attack with our current personnel is a completely different issue.
Some of us don’t seem to grasp this simple truth. Repeating myself I know but if you have big, fast, aggressive defensemen capable of attacking an offense, it doesn’t much matter what scheme you run. If you don’t have those defensemen, it also doesn’t much matter what scheme you run.
For all we know Hux may be the best there is at getting the most out of semi-athletic, quasi-fast defensemen who are poor tacklers. Most humans like to have somebody to blame for our failures. Hux fills that role as well as any coach we could hire with the present group.
Patience is not something we have as State fans.
Gray – bs. We’re plenty patient.
“Some of the State fans can be patient part of the time.
And part of the State fans can be patient some of the time.
But all the State fans can’t be patient all the time.”Was it Abe Lincoln who said that? Maybe Bob Dylan misquoting Lincoln? Who knows. We know for sure it was Greywolf who screwed it up correlating it to State fans.
No matter it’s not a question of being patient. It’s a matter of keeping our word. We said (through our authorized spokeswoman, Debbie Yow) we would give Doeren 5 years. What the hell is all the talk about reneging on our deal if he doesn’t win a conference game in his first 2 years? Is that in his contract?
Doeren apparently is setting up our offense to be run by a dual threat QB. Our defense is being installed to able to stop the epidemic of spread offenses. IMNSHO Doeren is building to have a top 25 program and isn’t nearly as concerned about winning a couple of conference games as we are. I’m equally sure he is trying to win every game inside the parameters of the offense he is setting up and the defense he is setting up. AFTER his basic offense and defense is installed I would not be surprised at all to see personnel groups that are formed to stop the run where appropriate and groups to thwart the passing game of some teams. We are not there yet. IOW Doeren’s priorities may not be what our priorities are.
I disagree with the “you gotta win to recruit well” line of thinking. Winning may make recruiting easier but DD and crew are proving right now that he can recruit with or without winning seasons. He does have the number one defensive recruits 2 years in a row. That’s about as good as it gets on that side of the ball. We may be missing out on some of the Marvin Austins of the state but if so, too bad… or good.
If you have big, fast athletes on the defensive side of the ball, it doesn’t matter much what kind of scheme you run. If you have small, slow athletes on the defensive side of the ball, it doesn’t matter much what kind of scheme you run. It’s not that I don’t think some DC’s are better than others, I just don’t think any of them can turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse.
I’ve noticed a coincidence. All the really good defensive coordinators coach at schools with top athletes as determined by recruiting class rankings. So I must surmise that Huxtable is a really lousy DC because he coaches at a school with poorly ranking recruiting classes. Besides we owe Hux a real debt of gratitude – who would we blame the poor defense on if not our DC?
We need to bring in a DC who knows how to coach speed and quickness — boys who can overpower offensive tackles and stuff running backs for loses. Hux clearly doesn’t know this aspect of his job.
“…where is Reggie Herring when you need him???? I’m pretty sure we could pay him more as DC than the Bears are paying him as linebackers coach.” I wouldn’t bet on it. Besides there is a lot more to coaching in college than meets the eye. Reggie’s not a spring chicken any longer and he might have had all the kissing HS prima donna’s arses he wants.
Having said all that, it’s too bad Chuck couldn’t keep Reggie here. He may have been the best we’ve had in modern times. Maybe we could resurrect Al Michaels. He is my nomination for All-Time Best DC we’ve ever had at State. (For you young’uns Coach Michaels was Earl Edwards DC in the late 50’s and 60’s — in the era that we had some very highly ranked teams playing in old, 20,000 seat Riddick “Stadium.” In those days we played our home games with eweNC over on Brokeback Hill.
(Who knows? That may have been when we brought recruits in for their official visit. I was in school with those guys and I’m pretty sure some would have believed it was where we played all our home games.)
Bringing in the top ranked defensive player in the state 2 years running is the kind of thing that can change a defense in a hurry. The thoughts of Roseboro and Street manning the end positions give me “the grins.” 😉 No offense meant to Rose and Norman but…
