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A poster over at BTP (tvp1) posted the following, which I found interesting and depressing:
Over the past 16 seasons (2000-2015), NC State football has compiled a conference record of 53-75.
During that stretch, we have been blessed with 4 QBs who were drafted by NFL teams. Each was a multi-year starter and stayed relatively healthy while here. 7 of those years we had a future All-Pro QB.
In the 11 seasons started by those 4 NFL-caliber QBs, NC State went 42-46 in conference. Only 2 of those 11 teams had winning conference records. Both of those were 5-3.
In the 5 seasons during that stretch lacking an NFL-caliber starting QB, NC State went 11-29 in conference, a cool 27.5% winning percentage. (Even removing the 2013 Thomas/Mitchell/no talent sh–show, the record is only 11-21).
NC State has not had a winning conference record without starting an NFL-caliber QB since 1998.
NC State has won more than 5 conference games only twice in the post-FSU era. The most recent such year was 1994.
This means about as much about this year’s team as when TOB’s first 5 teams beat the Holes then lost the 6th game. Why look in the rear view mirror to see where you are going? Lincoln lost nearly every political race he entered. Why bother to run for president?
High work ethic is part of the culture. We’ve had players leave for no apparent reason. My guess. They didn’t want to work in the weight room.
I am not trying to be difficult but am just trying to learn more about your opinion. What about the culture is he building on and (hopefully) improving and does that help us win in the future?
Rick, I don’t think you are being difficult at all. I think you are open to ideas about our coach and program that will enhance your enjoyment of Wolfpack football. Yogi is doing a great job of educating both of us about Coach Doeren our emerging football program culture.
Like Yogi I have picked up on things he has said over the almost 4 years he has been here. Using Yogi’s insight I think I have spotted assistant coaches using some of what Yogi has said. Example: Ledford speaks to his players about “coming back tomorrow and raising the bar.” He coaches to the level they are working at — offering praise for achievement and positive correction.
Doeren is learning. His coaches are learning.
As an example, OnePack-OneGoal might be a part of the culture he is creating. How would that help in winning? Finley arrived on campus and started ‘coaching’ the other QBs and the receivers in Drinkwitz’s system. Compare this to the Michigan QBs who tried to hold secret workouts to gain an advantage over the other QBs in competing for the starting job. Harbaugh liked it. It’s not the same culture is it. Finley could have tried to use his knowledge for an advantage over McClendon and Meyers but that’s not OnePack-OneGoal. Have some fun with this Rick. Over the season see if you can identify what might be called cultural in Doeren’s program.
I seem to recall you criticizing me for name calling. Just because his opinion is different does not mean he is a hole troll.
Not because of me but you seem “different” since then.
Read it again, Rick. I didn’t say he was a hole troll. Not then or in the previous post where he took it that I did. My original comment simply compared his position on character to those on The Tar Pit. My comment was about his comments, not him. Unless he has changed, I still don’t think much of his not caring about the character of athletes representing NC State — winning does not justify poor character. If it’s all about winning I think we should shut it down.
I made a comment (taken poorly) that I felt the “culture change” was smoke and mirrors but you seems to really feel he has changed it. What were the cultural problems when he came in? What has he done to fix them and where does he need to take the culture, in your opinion?
IMO Doeren is building on the foundation that TOB built. I don’t want to say anything about Chuck and the culture (or lack of culture) under him. Let’s just say I would want my son playing for either TOB (as a man) or DD as a man, developer of men and football coach.
Japanese companies have a 500 year plan or so I’ve heard. I don’t think a 500 year plan is viable for a football program but to turn a program from perpetual mediocrity to an ongoing top 25 program is not a 3 or 4 or 5 year deal. Honestly I don’t know how long it will take. Some programs have hired a hot-shot offense minded coach and made immediate gains. That doesn’t mean that the program will sustain itself after that hot-shot coach retires or leaves for the really big bucks.
Our HC will not be a rookie forever and there is no real value in harping on his rookie mistakes no matter how bad they were. The man has a plan and he has shared it with the AD. Let’s give him the support and time he needs.
Here is a story on our D-line to get you juices flowing for tomorrow night. http://www.espn.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/93990/bradley-chubb-leads-a-dangerous-defensive-line-at-nc-state
We are going to be hard to beat with this D-line.Yogi,
Don’t know how this happened.
YogiNC wrote:
You keep bringing up UNC as the bad example but they just won their division and gave Clemson all they wanted in the championship. Meanwhile Fedora is recruiting at the top of the ACC along with Pitt and Duke. For the love of God tell me what either has on NCSU?Anybody that waxes nostalgic for Chuck the Clown can be dismissed immediately from serious consideration. I mean, come the f-ck on already.
Come on BJ, tell us what you really think. 😉
You keep bringing up UNC as the bad example but they just won their division and gave Clemson all they wanted in the championship. Meanwhile Fedora is recruiting at the top of the ACC along with Pitt and Duke. For the love of God tell me what either has on NCSU?
IOW 20 years of academic fraud to keep players eligible doesn’t matter to you. Bogus learning disability tests to gain athletes advantages such as tutors taking notes for them don’t matter to you. Using “volunteer” coaches to coach players when that is against NCAA rules doesn’t matter to you.
Fedora has the advantage of coaching Butch Davis’s recruits — recruits Black Santa swayed with his illegal tricks — to coach. BTW the great Fedora didn’t have a winning record in 2014 so he went out and hired a coach who couldn’t get on our campus to be his DC.
You like The Carolina Way. I think it’s despicable. We should end our conversations. You aren’t going to convince the The Carolina Way is the best thing since sliced bread and I’m not going to convince you that you can win without running a slim-ball program.
You can have the last word. We are done.
True transformation of an organization starts at the top. It all starts with our graduates. We demanded a top notched chancellor. Our first big step at NC State was hiring Randy Woodson. I know a lot of folks don’t like Debbie Yow but I trust Woodson and he hired her. Dave Doeren is not the best football coach we could have found but he may be the best man we could have hired for the job. The problem with NC State having a great football coach is he’s the coach version of 1 and done. I don’t think Doeren is going to run to the first school that waves a quarter more per year. Our lowly ACC conference has slipped up into the big boy status in football. Thank you FSU and Clemson. SEC games are no longer automatic loses.
But continuing the top down story. Doeren has hired coaches who are quality people as well as good to excellent coaches. Those coacbes see something here that we fans don’t see. Drinkwitz, Ledford, Nielsen, McDonald, and so on are coming to work for a man with vision and integrity. It’s a slow process to build this way but it’s better than The Carolina Way with Black Santa carrying the money bag.
I’m 78 years old and may not live to see NC State at or near the top of the heap but i’m going to enjoy the ride as long as I can. There is something different happening here and it’s good. YOu guys who look in the rear view mirror to see where we are going… I don’t blame you for being pessimistic. Been there; done that. If you are interested in something a whole lot more fun, try looking to see what’s happening now. It really is a much more fun way.
^Hire coaches with established relationships or roots in your state or region. You need some salesman who can sell mama or daddy or Jimmy to wear the red and white.
So the fast answer is: Hire coaches with established relationships or roots in your state or region.” Easy enough except how do you hire them away from the schools who currently employ them. Where do we get the bucks? And For the last 2 or 3 years these super salesman coaches have been in mama, daddy and Jimmy’s living room using the same sales pitch or their old employer.
The question is, “What have our coaches got to sell?” or more specifically what do we have to sell that other teams with better histories, better facilities, better education, better looking coeds, etc., have to offer. As TheAlias Troll pointed out, TOB laid the groundwork for what NCSU can offer that some, maybe many, others don’t have to offer. Champions in the classroom, champions in the community and something he was standing for, champions on the field. What TOB IMO failed at was sustaining the recruiting effort.
Doeren was brought in to fill the missing – recruiting energy. He, again IMO, has built on the foundation that TOB built. One major addition is the family atmosphere. I don’t know all that TOB had in his program but I do know that Doeren is providing these young men with life skills as well as athletic training. All of the fore mentioned aspects of TOB’s program and DD’s program are lumped together what I call the culture.
Work ethic is a big part to this culture. Example: The O-line is the first position group on the practice field and the last off. They will not be out worked. The gains in strength and conditioning across the board are a result in the work ethic. Our coaches are getting more and more interest by recruits which will result in better commitments.
Without altering our culture to be something truly unique we have nothing to sell except being able to start as a freshman and we all know what that means. Our team is weak. Doeren isn’t out tooting our horn about the culture TOB started and he is continuing to build. Bragging doesn’t fit in the culture. (See EweNC for an examples where egotism, self-interest, arrogance and boasting a part of the culture.
Check out our staff. Doeren has assembled a very good group of coaches, coaches who want to be part of a program they can be proud of. You want find coaches who have been run-off from other programs for reasons of impropriety. What TOB started and on whose shoulders he stands is solid and cannot be built in a year 2 oe 3.
The question is, “What are have our coaches got to sell?” Quality education, quality football, good citizenship, quality life training, and more. We are appealing to parents and young men who know there is more to life than playing football for 4 years. There are enough really good football players who feel this way to make up a winning program. We won’t be sued, like a certain neighboring school, for failing to provide the education we promise.
We will have a solid, winning program here at NC State, and one that those of us who care about such things can be proud of. We will have some of the usual foolishness that one can expect from 18 year olds but not the crap we read about every day at other schools.
I’m not into predictions but I will step out on the skinny branches and say that I think Joe Giglio of the N&O has it about right. He says we will finish the regular season at 8-4. I don’t know where he is getting his info from but he is the N&O beat writer for the Pack.
If we had just taken Clemson to the brink and won the division then you wouldnt be posting this stupid stuff about character building, Culture etc.
As someone pointed out TOB recruited the same type kid but that is apparently a different “culture” then what you are looking for. In college athletics wins are all that matters. Beating this “we do things the right way” (which is laughable at best) drum is the losers mentality.
And playing the “Hole Troll” angle is not a very becoming way to argue your point.
TheAliasTroll wrote:
… and another thing: why are we patting ourselves on the back for this coach supposedly changing the culture? Just what in the hell was wrong with the culture from the previous regime? I mean it seems to me that the previous regime’s had an integrity filled and WINNING culture.What I said was that you had to go to the Tar Pit forum in Inside Carolina to find conversation like yours. I wouldn’t insult a Hole Troll by saying you were one.
You have to go to The Tar Pit Forum on Inside Carolina to read stuff like this.
Do you think people give two rat behinds about the “culture” (whatever the hell you mean by that) or character building etc. Thats just a flimsy excuse for having a crap program. You may think that is all good but at some point he has to win. Its that simple. He has to win some games. I dont care what division we are in but he is getting paid to win. Figure it out, the last 2 coaches managed to beat both FSU and Clemson. These excuses are just tired and played out. This is the year, he has to win a game or 2 of significance or he is a dead man walking for the next AD and whatever excitement that is around the program goes down like the Hindenburg. He and Yow created this paper tiger of 8 wins and record breaking offensive stats while not even mentioning who it was against. Its obvious now what her motive was moving forward. At some point you have to quit blaming TOB (who beat #3FSU and won 7 games the fired year) and stand on the team you have built.
The changing culture line just seems like a buzz word to state some progress is being made. I really don’t take much from it.
Compare the culture of EweNC and NC State.
What would you say the culture is in a program that hires people like Chyckslit to be their defensive coordinator after a school like Auburn got rid of him for improprieties? Or a program that used a volunteer coach who was fired for putting the athletes at risk he was hired to coach? And lied about his working with players. Or a program that hid a hazing incident where 4 scholarship players allegedly gave a walk-on a concussion. Players trash and vandalize visitor’s locker rooms and facilities and the coaches look the other way. Players spit on opponents and the coaches “don’t know anything about it.” And there is more, lot’s more.
I’d say the culture is one of anything goes if it means winning.
How about a football program that emphasizes community service, leadership training, work ethic, scholarship (I mean real education that can be used after football), and family. A program where players are dismissed, not slapped on the wrist for violation of team rules.
These things — scholarship, community service, leadership, family — are not in lieu of football but are the additions to football life that the coaches promise the athletes that they recruit and their families. NC State football is not using the players and then sending them out in the world ill prepared to make it.No Rick, the “culture line” is not just a buzz word to state some progress is being made. With your being a Keymaster on SFN, I’m surprised you know so little about the football culture that Tom O’Brien initiated and Dave Doeren is continuing to build on the shoulders of what TOB built.
grey: I love that the posting rates are spiking. It’s the very end of the “dead period” between the end of the CWS and the first football game. I think we’re all “ready to go.”
Don’t sell yourself short, rye. It’s the kind of thoughtful posting that you and Yogi are doing that is boosting the interest. I wish foose, Mr. Dog and a few others would join in.
… and another thing: why are we patting ourselves on the back for this coach supposedly changing the culture? Just what in the hell was wrong with the culture from the previous regime? I mean it seems to me that the previous regime’s had an integrity filled and WINNING culture.
Umm.. yay for changing that?? Really?
Thank you for reminding me that TOB did a great job of altering the culture of Wolfpack football. I wish I had said something like DD building on the foundation created by TOB. I think TOB a established a program where parents who cared wanted their kids to spend their college years being influenced by such men as Tom O’Brien. What I was trying to say is I think Dave Doeren and his staff is cut from the same cloth.
I like that TOB won but I won’t go so far as to say I believe he had a winning culture. Highly regarded recruits weren’t flocking to NC State to be in that “WINNING” culture.
One thing for damn sure the posting rate on this thread is more than the 1 a day posting before it.
How were you on your prediction last season?
Actuallt Rick asked the question.
All predictions last year were made before Shad took the infamous Mo-ped ride and Dayes went out for the season. A lot of people forget about that and don’t like the question, “How would EweNC have done if Hood was lost for the season and Logan went down with a season ending injury?”
Injuries are a part of football, true, but Mo-peds shouldn’t be. 🙂
How were you on your prediction last season?
This has been a very interesting discussion since from page three on. Thanks for the insights from both “sides”.
d
I can’t remember what I had for lunch, never mind remembering something from last year. 😉I agree Rick. Thanks for saying it. This is the SFN I miss.
I’ve had a few EweNC folks puffing their chests out and bragging that Fedora has character, etc., because he helped a friend who needed a second chance.
I let them know we don’t have to worry about Doeren bringing coaches to NCSU like Beckman in order to “help a friend.” Doeren doesn’t have friends who abuse athletes and put their health at risk.
Do you help your friends who are in trouble for beating their wives? Me neither. I don’t have friends who beat their wives. You know what happens to wives who give their abusive spouse a second chance? They get abused a second time.
ryebread, Yogi,
I have 2 thoughts about the first year – one very general and the second more specific. DD is if nothing else an honest man who doesn’t go into a presser with a prepared, sugar-coated statement. He says he likes North Carolina (and lists the reasons.) He says he and his staff will not be out worked and I believe that. (He apparently is attracting recruits who are the same way.) So he accepted the NCSU job on very short notice. TOB’s firing came as a surprise to many if not most of us. DD took the job without a “career path” analysis. He trusted what Debbie Yow told him about how long he had, etc. If she told him he had 5 years, he’s got 5 years. If it was more or less, he’s got more or less… and how antsy we board monkeys are makes zero difference.
DD is if nothing else a smart man — intending to be a doctor before changing courses. He also has coached under some pretty successful coaches. I’m certain he saw what he was getting into or what he had to work with that first year. We all are pretty much in agreement you must have an outstanding QB to win in college. Pete and Brandon were not outstanding. I don’t think for a minute that DD didn’t try to win every game. I do think he used some situations as teaching moments that had us experts totally convinced that he was clueless as a coach. And there were times where his inexperience cost us a few yards or a time-out or whatever.
What DD could have done that might have won a game or 2 more was to use an offense that fit Pete Thomas’s skill set. Fortunately he didn’t come here to have a more impressive losing record or be able to say he won a conference game or 2 his first year. We started right in on installing the offense he and we all thought was “the one” — Canada’s offense. Unfortunately for us and Canada, while he was a brilliant offensive mind, he couldn’t call a game worth a crap IMO DD saw this and made the change. Bottom line without knowing what DD was doing we could not possibly judge accurately what he was doing or thinking when he made what looked to be bonehead decisions. Reading these message boards tells me most of us are upset DD isn’t doing what WE think should be done instead of trying to figure out what DD is thinking or trying to do. I guess it makes us feel good to think we are more knowledgeable than the HC.
When you are looking for what is wrong, usually you can find it. I know I can. I got an ex-wife who is proof of that. The gloom and doom folks like to criticize those of us who are looking for what’s right — we are referred to as ‘fantasizers.’ We are the fantasizers. They are the realists. Or so they think.
So I look for what’s working and what’s possible. Doeren has altered the culture in the football program at NCSU. Check. He has coaches who care about the players as players and people. He is building character and creating an environment where young men can grow to be all they can be. We are gradually attracting both good athletes and good people. We aren’t winking at hazing and beating up walk-ons, etc.
Instead of bringing up o-8 20 0r 30 times a year, maybe we ought to let that be in the past where it belongs. Way too many of us are steering this vehicle by the rear-view mirror.
This post turned into a rant… sorry about that.
If they turnout I’ll gladly and without regret admit that I was wrong.
I’ve been looking and I don’t see anywhere you’ve admitted you were wrong. Dang. You must be right all the time.
I’ll freely admit I was wrong once… and that was when I thought I was wrong and wasn’t. 😉
Hell no.
I’m telling you now.
Like I said, “If either turns out, we won’t hear from him.”
Now I like the hire of Eli but the fact that he hasnt even hinted as to why he kept our DC is a head scratcher. Our defense last year in critical situations screwed the pooch in each and every time.
Let’s ignore the “each and every time.” Sounds too much like my wife and her “never and always” rant. 😉
First things first. I don’t particularly think Huxtable is a great or nearly great DC. What he does do is fit into the culture that Doeren is creating here. Hux is a good man and is loved by the players. Second thing is not spoken about. Doeren is the de facto DC. Hux is administering Doeren’s defense.
Year one for whatever reason we went with the now basic college defense: 4 down linemen, 3 backers. Likely that decision was made because Doeren’s DC at NIU stayed there.
Year two we converted to 4-2-5 I suppose because of the spread and 3 receivers sets we encounter in the ACC. A lot of those “big gains” we gave up were a result of mistakes made in a defense most HS don’t play. (EweNC tried the 4-2-5 and abandoned it when they couldn’t make it work. Short term gain. Whether it is a long term gain or loss is to be seen.)
Year 3 some parts of our defense was very good and some not so good. Our LBs didn’t get it done. That problem will be less severe due to an added year experience but won’t be fully cleaned up until 2017 when Brock Miller and Germaine Pratt will have completed a red shirt year.
Hux is not without fault as the Nichol back is his responsibility and many of the failures IMO were failures of the Nichol, in his LB role, not getting it done on the LOS. A lot of us complain about big gains against our defense. BTW Clemson gave up more big gains than we did although they played 2 more games.
So stop scratching your heads. Doroen ain’t gonna fire himself and has too much integrity to use Hux as a skape goat. We don’t need a new DC, we need somebody who can coach LBs and NIKs. Unfortunately that is usually the DC.
What are the areas that don’t pass your eye test?
Greywolf: QB.Quarterbacks competing for starting positions:
McClendon 6-5, 212 lbs
Finley 6-4, 200 lbs
Don’t pass the eye test?
Using jargon trying to sound knowledgeable?Finley was starting for Boise State before season ending injury. McClendon and Finley in a battle too close to call. OK, neither of these guys is as good as Clemson’s Watson but both are predictably very good college quarterbacks. If they aren’t very good, Mac will be able to look back and say, “I told you so.” If either turns out, we won’t hear from him.
