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I read on multiple State sites at the time that “it was win this game or you are out the door” and several posters on SFN said the same thing. I repeatedly questioned that scenario from various “insiders” and always got the same it’s true response. Grey, you are the first poster that I’ve seen that says that maybe this wasn’t the case. All the positives that DD brought to the table up to that point were out the window if true. How would any of us handle that type of scenario in corporate america? Make this sale in the next 3 hours or you are fired. How would that sit with you? Go watch that game. DD was aggressive and used several trick plays to build a 21-0 lead. There was quite an argument about the second half on SFN about whether or not DD climbed into his conservative shell. I believe the win or goodbye ultimatum was valid.
Did you read where Yow said if he didn’t win, he was gone? Hers and Randy Woodson’s are the only opions that matter.
I’m not sure how that game was played means that if we didn’t win, DD was fired.
“Grey, you are the first poster that I’ve seen that says that maybe this wasn’t the case.” The people I talked to don’t post their opinions.
After much deliberation, I went to my employer early in my career and said I had two offers for almost double my then current salary. First of all, I was prepared to walk out the door that day. Secondly, I knew the department was severely understaffed. Lastly, I knew my boss hated the hiring process. DD got a material raise and so did I without a legit offer in hand. That tells me DD doesn’t have a warm, fuzzy relationship like GottYow.
No offense intended but your personal experiences early in your career may not be the best criteria for forming opinions in these matters.
Let’s be honest about this. Two seasons ago DD had to beat UNC in the last game of the regular season, or he was gone.
In the context of being honest, I have heard it both ways. One story is that some big hitters, while not happy with the w/l and some loses, were very happy with the way he was building the program and the culture being created here.
So let’s be honest about this. Do you know beyond opinion that DD had to beat UNC in the last game of the regular season, or he was gone? Or is this your story based on the things you say in your post.
I started not to respond to this knowing I might tee you off by questioning your which you state as fact. I really would like to know if you have info that would be useful to share. Use the PM on PFN if you want to keep it out of the public realm.
Also, it looks like 85% of the posting of this community is over at Packfansnation now. Any chance we can take the thread over there?
If it doesn’t get moved, I’m going to repost my parts of the conversation on PFN — after editing out the disingenuous part. 😉
The narrative about us running off DD is seemingly disingenuous.
“We almost ran him off last year.” is almost a typo. Our (fans in general) comments about firing Doeren gave him cause to consider if he wanted to coach where he wasn’t wanted. Maybe he doesn’t have the thick skin needed to be a HC in 2018. We didn’t almost run him off. We didn’t run HWSNBN either, we just let him know we wanted him gone. 😉
Putting those negotiations in the past is a good idea. We showed good faith with a nice raise. He showed good faith for taking 1M less than he was offered else where.
Kicking hasn’t come up but it will. I’ve heard from reliable sources that our freshman kicker is not practicing putting the ball through the uprights, he is aiming for and hitting the tall light poles at the practice field. When you are that good, keeping practice interesting is challenging. My opinion? Let us inside the 35 yard line and you will risk giving up 3 points. Doeren’s coaching ability with our kicker is going to improve dramatically this year. 😉
Recruiting wins notwithstanding, this is Finley’s final year coming up, and we’ll see how much Doeren’s coaching acumen has improved. It appeared to me last year that he did cede some of his gameday decisions to his coordinators, which is a double-edged sword.
Watch closely during a game Sweeney is coaching for instance. He doesn’t make decisions on defense and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t make decisions offensively either. You can really see it in pro games. The head coach has duties but they aren’t offense or defense decisions. The HC interfaces with the Referee, decisions that mean deviation from the game plan, etc. He may be the deciding factor in whether or not his team tries an on sides kick or not. Whether to go for it on 4th down or not, etc.
You can count on his holding the coordinators accountable, as the coordinators hold the assistants accountable for their position groups. The HC is responsible for all the team does and for all the results. When the team isn’t winning, the AD doesn’t go to the coordinators about it the defense allowing too many points or the receivers dropping passes. You can bet your hat, arse and overcoat the receivers coach is responsible for those drops and has to account for them to the OC.
Since the level we hear about accountability and responsibility usually stops with the head coach, little is known how far or deep this accountability/responsibility goes but I can tell you this: the players speak of being accountable as part of their education. It’s a fine line between holding someone to account and blame. Unfortunately we fans don’t understand the difference and when we hear of a coach or player being held to account, we frequently but unknowingly blast our coach for something he isn’t doing. Ever wonder why we hear so much “Coach speak”? Coaches are avoiding being truthful for fear of being misinterpreted.
Doeren will make changes in the defense but Hux and Roof will be doing the heavy lifting. I expect new ideas from Roof but Hux is accountable for the defense and defensive changes. Already there are leaks about the defense being better, more exciting, etc. For sure Doeren will be in on the changes, maybe even in the coaches rooms putting limits on aspects such as blitzing. And he should be. He will also be in with the coaches creating
offensive schemes, even tho he will have much less input. The “50/50 pass/run” philosophy is his and the offense will be designed inside these parameters. Deviations will be suggested by him or the coordinator to him but Doeren will not usurp the coordinator’s responsibility.This is how HCs keep good coordinators. Yes you have to pay them fairly but good coordinators won’t stay with a team that jerks them around. When Doeren went to New England, he took both coordinators with him. Very few college level coordinators meet with the some of the best counterparts in the business for coaching and training.
He may be foolish to think so but Doeren is planning on the Wolfpack being on or near the top of college football. To quote Lou Holtz (or Holtz quoting somebody else), “If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.” We seem to be trending in that direction.
Backing up just a bit “Recruiting wins notwithstanding, this is Finley’s final year coming up, and we’ll see how much Doeren’s coaching acumen has improved.” Addition by subtraction. His coaching acumen will improve by less interference with his coordinators. IOW he is a smarter coach by letting his coaches coach.
This is Finley’s final season. Kevin Leary, 4-star QB will be a freshman and there is every reason to believe he will be outstanding. Leary has a strong, accurate arm and is adequately mobile. He is a committed young man. Gave up his senior year of HS baseball to work out to gain the weight and strength he needs to be a college ready QB.
The good HS receiving recruits know who will be delivering the ball to them and are interested in the Wolfpack. Our recruiting is not some hit and miss program under Doeren’s guidance and Kitchins’ management. We are attracting QB interest from 4-star HS QBs from as far away as California.
We may not see it but others around the country see NC State as a team of the future.
Thanks, Greywolf. My thoughts as the Jackson announcement was coming along was the old adage regarding The Nose, and perhaps now the old Coach K, who could come in late in the game and steal a recruit. You’re absolutely right that Jackson re-opened his recruitment and that DD and Kitchings and Patrick took advantage. I like this mentality in our coaching staff and it appears those coaches are selling good values to these recruits.
“Stealing” a recruit is a good way to put it when a team like Tennessee comes in what appears to us as late and signs a highly valued recruit. What we don’t know is how long Tenn has been recruiting this guy.
Merci Falaise, Assistant Director of Player Personnel/Recruit Communications was hired in early 2017. He had spent the previous three seasons working on the football recruiting staff at Tennessee. Falaise is a former Wolfpack offensive lineman. Falaise also has worked as an assistant coach at Georgia Military College in charge of the offensive line and tight ends. His relationship with GMC allowed State to slip in and sign CB Ki.shawn Miller seemingly out of nowhere. Miller is not a big kid and was flying under the radar but is a full speed ahead hitter.
The position coach who signed Miller and is associated with Miller would appear to be the recruiter who swooped in and stole Miller. Much more complicated than that. Falaise’s playing and coaching background, the relationships with HS and JCs while not mentioned is responsible for Miller coming to State. We are in reaping the same benefits with Ted Roof recruiting in Georgia.
We have a good sized staff behind the scene in the recruiting department but nowhere near as big a staff a Clemson, Tennessee, Bama, etc., and the rest of the top teams. Winning big with sustained success is not done on the practice field alone. It starts much earlier than that and involves lots of unknown staff. Relationships are formed early, sometimes as early as Jr. HS for some top recruits.
Doeren will be a highly valued HC for us and coveted by schools who want to be big time football schools. The Tennessee fans may not have wanted Doeren or knew his value but the Tennessee AD did. We Wolfpack fans are mostly clueless as to what Doeren is doing as our HC. The culture that he has created here amongst the coaches as well as he players will produce results far into the future.
We laugh at our neighbor being a “sleeping giant” but the Pack is as dangerous as an iceberg with only the tip of the danger showing. The recruiting staff and structure is the hidden part. We see the DL that was just drafted, JaySam, Hines, Harmon, Finley, et al but they are all the result of Doeren creating a culture for coaches and staff to work in and thrive while building the Wolfpack.
It’s scary to think what the holes could do with the money they have available IF they had the right HC and culture for successful football.
If the fans knew what DD was accomplishing, we would knock off the lame jokes and put-downs. We almost ran him off last year. Fortunately his wife and family didn’t want to move away from the friends and life they were enjoying here in Raleigh. We want find another DD at the price we are paying him. And folks, money ain’t everything. We can keep him if we as fans really want him. We DO need to trust that he knows what he is doing and is developing himself as a HC while bringing in great staff and top recruits are interested in NC State now.
Savion Jackson decommitted from Duke???
Probably not. A couple of guys have decommitted from Duke recently and my old mind likely confused Jackson with one of those. Senior moment, brain fart. It ain’t the first time and won’t be the last time. 😉
My point was and is — it ain’t poaching if the player is not committed and Savion wasn’t committed to USCJr therefore not poached.
First, thanks for doing this. It is relatively easy to comment on someone else’s work. Doing the original work, not so easy. So again my appreciation for what you did.
2) What has intrigued me about the Savion Jackson commitment is that it has been the second time Doeren/Kitchins has swooped in to poach a talented player who was bound elsewhere to play football.
Jackson de-committed from Duke and re-opened his recruitment. He was not “bound” elsewhere. No coach gives up because he thinks a recruit is going to or might commit to another school. Even after commitment if coaches are given any indication that the recruit might “flip” they will continue to recruit.
Savion scheduled a visit with us and committed after the visit. He is still not “bound” to NC State until he signs an LOI.
Doeren had little if any involvement in Jackson’s recruitment. Kitchens did because Clayton is his geographic area of responsibility. Kevin Patrick will be Jackson’s position coach and far more likely worked together with Kitchins on the recruitment.
Similarly Ted Roof worked with position coach Dwayne Ledford to land Dylan McMahon.
One involvement Doeren had with Kitchins was when Kitchins was leaving to be HC at Furman and he stayed here to coach. LOL
Ironically I feel better about the position coaches on offense than defense. Our DL haul (particularly with all the playing time we’ll be offering) will be telling.
As you well know I look under the surface for answers. Our defensive coaching is no different. Doeren’s replacement at NI was his DC who probably kept the staff under him. At least the better coaches. This probably caught Doeren off guard a little. The offer by NC State probably was a bit of a surprise although I’m sure the negotiations were going on with his agent before we made the off.
Regardless, he had to scramble for defensive position coaches. While DD isn’t the most personable guy in the world with fans, he is well known and well liked by coaches. While Chuck seemed to have relationships with the Norm Chow’s of the profession, DD seems more related to coaches who fit with his family culture but are either good up and comers or or like McDonald and Barlow — good coaches who didn’t have the greatest relationship with their previous bosses.
Fans have been down on Huxtable since he got here. The more I see of Hux the better I like him. Not for his DC abilities but for his personality and how well liked he is amongst the players — recruits in particular. Hux truly is a good man and is the “father image” in this family atmosphere. He isn’t driven by ego either, otherwise Roof could not have come to coach with him.
Barlow doesn’t get much love because of the seemingly poor performance of our corners. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Barlow hasn’t had as much to work with as, say, McDonald. (He was one of Franklin’s staff at Vanderbilt so we know he’s not a pure dog.) He made a decent corner out of Alston in short order. You know Alston has been invited for a tryout by one of the NFL teams, right? Now he’s doing a ‘wonder’ job with Trowell. Barlow has done the best job he could with what he has had to work with. I’m OK with him until he proves he hasn’t got it.
Bringing in Roof may be a real difference maker. I heard many complaints last year about our safeties being out of position and looking confused. That will stop with Ted Roof coaching them. I see Aaron Henry as “red-shirting.” Funny thing to say about a coach but think about it. He coached safeties last year and this year he only has responsibility for nickels. And you know that Roof being a co-DC he’s training Henry.
While there is some overlap at LB, with Hux DC-ing the DL and the LB’s and Roof DC-ing the Safties, nickels and corners, we have a very nice division of responsibilities. I also suspect Henry is getting some training in coaching corners by Barlow. The nickel back does some receiver coverage and needs some of the same coveerage skills as corners.
That stuff is all in my mind an I may be totally off. What we do know is DD has some attention on the defense other than the DL. Our LB and CB recruiting is several degrees above where we have been. IMO DD can let go of any defensive coaching he may think he has to do with Hux and Roof here. We really miss Clayton White but are now recovering from his loss.
DD has improved remarkably as a HC in my opinion. Thinking about it OC’s are involved in game decisions far more than DC’s. Dave was a DC and it showed his first few years here. Behind the scenes DD insists on his coaches and himself have on-going training. Great attitude for a HC. And how the heck did he hook up with Belichick?
Speaking of the Pats I wonder if Drinkwitz was getting some coaching on using his tight end? I hope Hux was getting some coverage training and some blitz training on the trip. If we don’t use our TE for some receiving, we will not be able to recruit the good TE’s. We can teach blocking technique if the players are willing to learn and get their noses smacked around by DT’s. But you can’t teach soft hands. speed and running ability to the OT playing TE.
Rye, I’m through for the morning. Let’s get another beer and a sandwich and then you tell what tell what you think about the defense and defensive coaches? I’m not married to any of my thoughts. Let ‘er rip.
Drake says he will be bringing in some more defensive recruits with him. If he does that will be huge as well.
Drake Thomas just committed to NC State over Clemson, TN, VT. L’ville. Also had offers and considered Alabama and Ole Miss and 14 offers he had low or no interest in including no interest in EweNC.
Rye, We seem to be on the same page regarding Doeren’s trip to New England and our recruiting philosophy and practices.
Recruiting is a team game. The staff does the heavy lifting searching for talent. Coaches are in contact with HS coaches and pick up some info on potential recruits. This coach/HS coach relationship cannot be emphasized enough. If a boys HS coach says, “You might want to take a look at NC State. I think you would fit in there personally as well as football wise.” you know the boy is going to take a look. How many schools can a young man look at? If you are recommended by the HS coach, you are ahead of the game.
But you know all this. I’m just talking football. It’s so much better talking to someone like you, Rye, than talking to myself. The mind is a dangerous place to go by oneself. 😉
Perhaps last year’s “haul” or ranking may not be a valid gauge of the condition of the overall program. Seeing who your team is in competition with may be a more accurate assessment of your status in the recruiting world.NC State is fishing in the right ponds these days. We may not land all the “big ones” we want this year or even next year. Regardless, you have to be fishing for the big ones to catch the big ones. I have wondered why we haven’t seen more 5-stars on our recruiting board. Trying to see from Doeren’s point of view, we are not over-reaching for talent we haven’t won “the right” to recruit yet. Our day will be here soon.
If we are in the area of top 25 recruiting classes, we will do better than top 25 results. Thunder Dan is outstanding in the area of strength and conditioning. Our receivers coach, George McDonald has one of the best group of receivers in the country. Dwayne Ledford is a top-notch OL coach. Faulkner didn’t do too bad with Cole Cook and JaySam and we have a JUCO TE transfer who is 6-7 and very athletic, so TE wise I’d say we are in good shape.
We are after 5-star Quavious(sp) Couch from Charlotte who is Rivals number 1 ranked recruit in the country. I don’t know where we stand with him but we are in the picture. That alone to me is amazing. For what it’s worth, his brother is an incoming freshman. I’m not holding my breath on this one but I’ve got my fingers crossed. Almost everyone is recruiting him as a running back but a few are recruiting him as a LB. Me? I’d say come on down to Raleigh and play any-darn-where you want to play. 😉
gray: As always, I hope you are right.
Rye, As usual, I am. 😉
About recruiting in New England… I expect as we continue to excel a few HS players from New England will contact us. IMO to be effective in recruiting an area you have to have assistant coaches who are known in the area and have relationships with HS coaches. George McDonald was already established in Florida as is Dan Patrick. Roof is well known and respected in Georgia. Faulkner is dominant in the Charlotte area. And so it goes.
We have staked our claim in New Jersey and are doing the same in Tidewater Va. We have point men in position recruiting as well as geographically. There are no clear cut lines but each coach has recruiting responsibilities.
In addition to coaches we have recruiting staff as well. Clemson has probably twice as many staff devoted to recruiting as we do. Spreading our staff and coaches too thin could be detrimental to the overall effort. In order to recruit successfully you have to identify and be “on” elite players as sophomores and even freshmen sometimes. I would guess the Quality Control coaches are looking at sophomore film during the off=season helping to identify beneath the radar talent.
The perennial top teams such as Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, USCal and others can come in late to offer after a player blows up during his junior year but teams on the rise like NC State must already have our foot in the door.
Doeren says we will not be out worked. All this work behind the scenes by staff and coaches is already paying off with our being on some top 5, 8 and 10 lists with some very good company. When we have another good, winning season this year it will only get better.
I kind of drifted off a little but I just don’t think we have the recruiting staff to do an effective job of recruiting if we try to cover more territory than we already do.
I hope part of the visit was a session on the benefit of a traditional TE. Could you imagine a Whitten, a Gonzales or a gronk 2.0 in this offense? How often does this team pass inside the hash marks 5,10,15 yards down the middle? It might have seriously burned ND’s constant blitzes straight up the middle. A 6’7 240 pound target should help in red zone scoring.
^Here’s a good thought. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was on the agenda.
Rye and LifeLongWolf,
We recruit Orlando and other parts of Florida, we don’t recruit New England and high schools are not practicing right now. That’s a lot of coaching muscle to be looking at a HS player do what?It could be recruiting but the Patriot’s have OTAs May 30-31. If I was going to watch the Pats practice to see how they did it, I would take my 2 coordinators. Designing practices is HC & coordinator business.
I went to a couple of Doeren’s practices the first year. I went with a Wolfpack Letterman who said it was the most organized practice he had ever seen. It won’t be one or 2 big things that keep us in the top 25 or vault us into the top 10, it will be attention to detail and a lot of small things that add up.
Belichick is one of the brightest minds in football today and honestly I like Doeren using his connections. I don’t think I am going to overlook that important factor because of my dislike for the Patriots or Belichick.
For fashion Doeren is going over to Holesville to check out the argyle and basketball player on the football unis. 😉
People come here for informed opinions and my opinions are so uninformed I don’t see any reason to post them anymore. That and this site is not the place for a quintessential optimist. ;-).
Country boy caught a ride in one of the first cars to have air condition. Said he was going to Slingsh1t, South Carolina. After about 5 miles he asked to be let out at the next crossroads. He explained, “Gotta go back home. I didn’t know it was cool enough to kill hogs.”
Thank you boys for the interesting dialogue on farming and gardening. 😉
Just remember, when one wants to dial up a 43, that guy’s responsibilities are the same as that 42 guy.
If you stick a #59 on that Rover/Wolf/Bandit, we couldn’t really tell the difference.
Mr. DOG, As you well know good coordinators disguise defenses especially blitz packages. Buddy Ryan was the master with his 46 defense — named for Doug Plank’s jersey number. BTW I couldn’t explain diddly squat about how the 46 works or worked.
Thanks Rye. I remember you being the one who favored Roof’s hire now.
The tell will come when DD has to replace his staff. Eventually that will happen as they move on – I’m glad they are here and the contributions they bring but as we know things will change good or bad. DD has done well by his staff but that will not be forever.
57, Staff replacement is not a 10 out 10 in kind of deal. DD has already had to “replace” 60% of his offensive staff and all are IMO upgrades. (replacements: McDonald, Ledford and Drinkwitz) You could say 80% since Kitchings left but chose to return.
On the other side of the line DD has had to replace 75% of the staff. I’m not sure could upgrade our DL coach but we will know at the end of 2018 season if Patrick has is or not. Aaron Henry is not an upgrade for Clayton White but DD has hedged his bets by hiring Roof to coach safeties which I consider to be at a minimum an equal replacement and probably an upgrade.
So what is different in Wolfpackland? For onething DD is all for the coaches having time to be with their families. He actually ran a coach out of the Murphy Center and told him to go home and spend time with his wife and kids. He was against the new recruiting period because the assistant could schedule vacations during that time.
In contrast to Rye, I believe Dave and Hux together put the knew defense together. Contrary to many fans Hux is respected in the coaching ranks. If DD did not include his DC in the research, design and change to the 4-2-5, it was the dumbest CEO thing that DD has ever done.
I bring this up again to illustrate the involvement the assistants have in the big picture — more than position coaches. Coaching is not a lot different from any other job in that the more the assistants have involvement in the entire process, the more job satisfaction.
Considering DD success replacing staff so far, I’m going to put off worrying about that until he starts to fail to bring in good replacements.
The tell will come when DD has to replace his staff. Eventually that will happen as they move on – I’m glad they are here and the contributions they bring but as we know things will change good or bad. DD has done well by his staff but that will not be forever. At this point I’m happy with the program (note program and not a single season).
This program that you are happy with, what makes it that way? IOW what is currently good about the program and what would you change (program and not the team or individual coach or coaches} to make it better?
Rye and Yogi,
I have really enjoyed reading your discussion. Not many disagreements here but I do have a few comments.Regarding Drink being pass-happy, hard NOT to be pass-happy with Harmon, Louis, Meyers, Samuels, Hines, Emezie and Parham to throw to. Hines, Gallaspy and Jay-Sam were all banged up at times. I understand this staff isn’t inhibited about inputting in meetings. Ledford is the run game coordinator and Kitchings the RB coach. I wouldn’t put passing decisions all on Drinkwitz.
Rye’s comment about Drink at the end of the post above says it all for me… young, willing to learn, willing to be a part of the culture, will be here for a while.
You guys know I gotta say this: It’s all inside the culture that Doeren has created. Coaches jumping at a chance to coach here (Patrick, Henry and maybe even Drinkwitz) and coaches staying when they get here (McDonald, Kitchings, Barlow, and of course Faulkner). Cue up the “Nobody wants Hux” recording. LOL
Somebody made a pretty disparaging remark about me if I thought snagging Roof was good. Ether of you guys got anything to say about Ted Roof and if he will be good for this coaching staff?
It also works both ways. The offense is also equally locked into their personnel. Have the 4 WR set in and it’s 3rd and 2, then is the call to throw it, run the QB and risk injury? Do it wrong and you’ve got a quick 3 and out, which a LOT of these up tempo teams end up with. It only takes a couple of 3 and outs for a high tempo team to get off track and get blown out, particularly if they’re putting their tired defense back out there.
What you say is true IF a JaySam is not one of your WR’s. Well prepared teams don’t get caught in situations you describe.
When your offense hurries to the line as we talked about and then forces the defense to play with the personnel grouping on the field, that isn’t a quick 3 and out. The full amount of time is used the same as if they huddled, called a play and ran a play. 3 and outs are not caused by hurry up offenses.
Regarding the WR who ran 30 yards down field, we can bring in a group of WRs who are very good. Will the defense substitute their DB and put in a depth chart sub for their starting corner. It’s a chess game and smarter OC’s like Drinkwitz put us at an advantage IMO.
It will all be worth it if we can vacate the 51 point loss to the holes. (eye roll and sarcasm alert)
If we are a victim it’s because we played the ‘heart be evil see no evil’ game. They knew what they had with Gott. I hope they insulated the school.
Rick, In another thread you asked,
Dumb question. How do you know this? <skip> but I was just wondering what evidence you have for this claim.
So I’m wondering…
