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It proves he can win at that level. Winning at that level does not guarantee a translation to this level. It certainly gives us some hope but you cannot apply the transitive property to this situation.
Winning at what level guarantees a tranlation high level of performance in the ACC? Does maintaining the level of wins in the A-10 conference guarnntee winning in the ACC? It didn’t for Oliver Purnell. At least Purnell built up a run-down program. Miller raised the bar hardly at all. So why Archie Miller? Sure Miller maintained Dayton at a reasonably high level but nothing spectacular.
Is maintaining the level of play in the Gottried era what we want? Maintenance Is what Miller has proved. IMNSOHO we need someone who has proved he can raise the bar. Keatts has done that although it is true enough the AAC is not the greatest level of play — a step below the A-10.
Perhaps winning national championships at the HS level isn’t all that great but he did do it by developing his players. He achieved what he achieved at UNC-W doing the same thing. Some say his defense wasn’t very good and some say his offense did not look good. I say good for him. He took what he had to work with and won where he was. He wasn’t asking his players to do what they couldn’t do.
I didn’t mean to “talk” you to death with this post. For that I apologize. š
Rick, I know you wish him well and so do I. Let’s hope our mid-major football coach performs up to expectations this year. See ya then.
When Keatts was at Hargrove he practically had a new team every year from what I read. I get it that we are talking Hargrove but to motivate new players every year and have a winning percentage of 90% plus then somehow he is getting these kids to buy in.
So Keatts did all the above and won 2 national championships, what does that prove? Exactly nothing.
We’ve tried the High School coach hire before. Look how that turned out. Who cares how Case did coaching high school. He only won 1 national championship here. Why we named an athletic center after him? Your guess is as good as mine.
Canāt it be both?
Yes, Wufpacker, it could be. If one was here when it happened, one would get it.
I read that quote as a reference to Yow but it is certaintly open to interpretation
Yow wasn’t here when Sendek was proudly railroaded out of town.
so donāt get upset when it generates discussion.
Upset? I agreed with you that your argument was bad. You seem to be the one upset.
Have a coke and a smile. Rick. Like the thread title says, we got ourselves a coach who was a winner at every level he coached.
Easy explanation Grey. UVA played their game. They ran the clock down limiting the number of possessions. Once the clock ran down they drove to the basket for layups, or when the D loosened up to prevent that, Perrantes stepped back and buried 3s.
Red Baron,
Hard for me to follow the logic that UVA played their game when they beat a much lower seeded team by a mere 5 points. It would seem to me to be just the opposite. UNC-W played THEIR game and lost to a heavily favored team by 5 points. I believe the scribes are saying “almost beat.”Not to belabor the point but Bennett with more skilled players nearly lost to Keatts with less skilled players. Defense alone will not take you deep in the tournament IMO. Keatts didn’t show you much apparently but the fact is he devised a game plan that worked pretty well. Can he do as well consistently? I guess we all want to see, eh?
This is simply a bad argument.
I thought the same thing when you joined in and made it an argument. š
What the UVA game proved was that defense is not his forte. We hired Gott-Two. UVA was able to go to the basket at will for uncontested layups. There was no help defense. Even the ESPN talking heads mentioned it.
Your claim doesn’t pass the smell test. “UVA was able to go to the basket at will for uncontested layups.” Yet UVA only won by 7. Perhaps the Triumvirate of you, Rick and the
EweNCESPN talking heads have an explanation for this anomaly?Perhaps ole dummy Keatts knows something about coaching that 2 board monkeys and the talking heads don’t know.
The best looking woman doesn’t always make the best wife. I married a real ‘looker’ the first time. I couldn’t see I was marrying Miss Auto-correct, Miss Knows-best and Miss High-maintenance all in one very attractive woman.
Not saying Keatts was an unattractive hire but there has been a lot of gnashing of the teeth here since his announcement. Some of us have dusted off our crystal balls (no pun intended) and seen that Keatts will never reach .500 in the ACC.
His 2 national high school championships mean nothing. He can’t coach in the ACC. So what that with only 3 years of college coaching he was made associate head coach of a national champion, he can’t coach in the ACC. Winning his conference championship 3 years running after an eight year winning record drought before him is meaningless. He doesn’t have experience coaching in the ACC.
The more I become aware of his life-time of coaching achievement, the more confident I become that he is the right choice. Thank goodness we didn’t hire MY first choice. I’ve got a history of bad choices.
^
Missed the Geritol today I see.McCallum
Usually when I complain about some perceived injustice, I can find a “friend” or 2 who tell me what I want to hear. You certainly found those here. Once and a while someone talks straight and tells me what I don’t want to hear. Unfortunately I usually respond with some smart-arsed remark. On the rare occasions I wipe the pigeon sh!t (Hoosiers reference) out of my eye and see the situation as it really is, I’m ahead of the game.
Consider that who you were being elicited the odd HR response, had him see you as he did and make an unacceptable (to you) offer without bothering to put numbers on it. I either learn from my mistakes or make them again and again. I’ve learned over time and through hard experience that I can do something about the way I’m being to change situations but never someone else.
I apologize if I offended you with my first post and now with this one. I can see I was insensitive to your situation. No apology for the content but for sure for the presentation.
Good luck with getting the job and compensation you want even if this isn’t it.
Edit:
Keatts may not have the qualifications of some other coach or coaches who interviewed but his presentation, who he was being in the interview, carried the day. This is what I was/am trying to say.Greywolf
Weird to hear this, could be sour grapes, but seems like they werenāt enamored with him.
I found the contrast in the attitude his players and Keatts’ players enlightening. Night and day. What was the difference? Wade recruit kids with bad attitudes? I didn’t think so either.
We should have waited for Wade. Just what we need here. Tension between the team, coach and administration. (sarcasm alert)
I just wonder if menās basketball or football will ever finish above .500 again, especially on any kind of a consistent basis.
We finished above .500 the last 3 years but you don’t think our senior laden team will this year? Oh, you meant in the conference. Why didn’t you say so. I guess we will just have to wait and see, won’t we. You wait with your lip poked out and I’ll wait relishing playing top 10 teams to do it.
While you are waiting compose another of your pitiful sounding posts about the incompetent Pack administration not caring. We need at least one a week. I guess it’s my karma to have fans around me sucking up the space of optimism and entusiam.
http://herosports.com/news/will-wade-vcu-basketball-players-unfazed-ugly-departure-bgbg
MBS, Start another thread with this, please. Or we will be reading about how we should have taken Wade for years. Actually we dodged a bullet.
No fuss, just want to discuss — if you know what I mean.
I didnāt want him because he had only been at UNCW 3 years and they are in the CAA, which proves nothing about his ability to compete with the big boys.
You have to show your ability in the CAAs to earn the right to compete with the big boys. The only place you can prove your ability with the biggies is competing with the biggies.
I had hoped this time would be different, and we could attract a ābigger-leagueā coaching candidate,
Who’s the target? Who’s winning and wants to come to NC State? What’s his problem? Can’t get along with the AD? If he leaves where he is, what’s to keep him at NC State. A dog that will bring a bone, will take a bone.
Who’s the alum or native North Carolinian who’s setting the coaching world on fire and wants to come home?
ābigger-leagueā coaching candidate = pipe dream.
I disagreeā¦unless by āmore than goodā you mean āgreatā. State has the facilities that many claim are needed to attract talent and the finances to pay a competitive salary (maybe not Top10, but damned competitive). The one thing missing for decades has been a great coach.
I did mean “great” coach. I actually had typed great coach but changed it to “more than good” coach.
So I did mean great coach thinking if we are to have a great coach, we are going to have to spot him before he’s known to be great and let him develop into a great coach.
I might as well say it, I do not see Miller as a “great” coach. At Dayton he’s been IMO not much more than a “place holder” — no damage but no real forward movement to where he can be called “great”.
There is no doubt the job is not a toxic as it was the last 2 coaching searches.
I’m not convinced the job was ever as toxic as we sometimes think.
Fowler just didn’t know what he was doing nor did he IMO have the Rolodex for the search nor did he have the search firm to do his hands off contacting. Either he didn’t have the where-with-all or wasn’t wise enough to know he needed one. Not spending the money was the most costly “savings” we’ve had at NC State. IOW if the job was toxic, Fowler wasn’t the screw up. If the job wasn’t toxic, Fowler was the screw up. I tend to think it was Fowler, not the job.
In Debbie/Gottfried case, timing could have been the big cause of the hiring fiasco. I wanted to take Mary Sue to the Senior Prom but she already had a date when I asked her so I went to plan B. Betty Sue heard I had asked Mary Sue and declined to be second choice. And so on. Going to the Prom with me wasn’t toxic as I found out much too late to help but my timing sucked.
It’s popular on this site and others for us to put ourselves down. I don’t believe it. We aren’t toxic and we are going to find this out in a few “long, drawn-out years”. It will seem like forever in basketball but I believe football is mid-turn right now. No facts to back that up but a sh!t-pot full of signs we are.
NC State low-balled a good coach once. He had just won a national championship. Wonder why he went to UF?
It may not be about the money per se but you can’t eff with a man’s self-esteem by low-balling him.
I hear Underwood is from Illinois. Probably had more to do with his leaving OSU than the money. If he had really wanted to stay, something could have been worked out IMO. You guys who keep talking about the cash may just be showing your own financial security levels.
Debbie struck again before anybody could beat her to the punch. Too bad she’s at retirement age. Good job, girl.
Grey I think you key point is
Part of the search firmās job is to assess interest.
……………………..
And yes, as Va says success at one level does not mean success at the next, but then again its the best indicator we have to go by. Iām interviewing for jobs right now and one thing I have is 4 previous long term cases of sustained sales growth, not a stinker in there, so I think Iām a safe hire but who knows, the situation Iām in now has constrained me to be able to achieve as much as I could.I wonder how Maslow’s theory of motivation would be applicable in assessing interest in a particular coaching job? Most of us seem to think money is the main motivational tool available to those with the jobs. I suspect that while important to be compensated fairly, money is not where Kevin Keatts is.
GC, I’d say at your level of success, moving up the hierarchical pyramid is important. I worked 20 years weatherizing homes for the low-income and elderly. I made many times more money in commercial construction but making a difference in the quality of somebody’s life every day we worked fulfilled my self-actualization needs. It was the happiest I’ve ever been in my work life. I’m not advising you what to do, but I am suggesting you are looking in the right place to find where you are not constrained.
Not that you will need it but good luck with your search.
I changed the titleā¦but the comment applies to almost every coach that is hired by an ACC school.
Good point. I guess I was impressed by the 2 national championships he won as HC of a HS team. You don’t get to pick proven 5-star recruits at a prep school, you develop players — at least IMO.
We talk on these boards about good assistant coaches being necessary to win. Coach KK was recruited out of a prep school to be an assistant on a team the went to 2 final 4’s and won a national title his 3 years there. Who your mentors are is a most important factor in a person’s professional career. I don’t like Rick Pitino but I would accept his mentorship in a heart beat.
How the heck do you have all that data you quote at hand? I’m impressed. How do you do dat? š
You mean the ones he lost? There are reasons to believe he will succeed, this is hardly one of them. His team gave up 70 points to UVA.
Citing his 2 games vs ACC opponents wasn’t to show he would succeed, but the closeness of the games indicates he can coach on a big stage. He lost by less than 10 points with a bunch of guys from the whatever conference it was. Being able to take those guys and compete in the against ACC teams indicates to me he can coach in the ACC. It seems to indicate to you he can’t. Oh well, lets see what else you got.
His team didn’t “give up 70 points” to UVA, Rick, he forced UVA to play HIS game. Did you miss where UVA gave up more points to lowly UNC-W than the average ACC team scored? I guess it depends on what you want to prove with the available data what you see.
I see where a mod from the Gloom and Doom Squad changed the name of the thread. Good idea. Maybe now this thread will get a decent comment or two.
Interesting comments about defense. The Old Grey Fox used to have a player or two to use in pressing situations. Remember Ronnie Scheffle(sp)? He didn’t play every game but when he was called on the whole team responded more intense defense.
Seems Coach KK mixes a fun offense with whatever defense he uses. The guy won 26 games so he plays some defense. I didn’t understand what he said about defense but it made sense when he said it — if you know what I mean. There is no need to punish the players for Gottfried’s sins and we certainly don’t want an environment that’s not fun to play basketball in.
About the concern for coaching in the ACC, IMO he’s shown he can coach here by his 2 games in the NCAAT. L’ville wasn’t in the ACC when he coached there but the Big East then wasn’t exactly a chopped liver conference. Maybe coaching with Pitino taught him something. At least he doesn’t have to un-learn anything he picked up from Gott.
…but the HR comment is very odd.
If you are anything in an interview like you are on this site, the HR comment was likely in kind. We can blow smoke up your a$$ with our comments about how great you are and what a jerk the HR guy is but most are professionals at shiffing out BS and assessing worth to their companies.
Of course you may be entirely different in an interview than you are here but how likely is that? IMO your best bet is to be accountable for your failure to get the offer you wanted and continue to look for opportunities. Do your own due diligence. Research the culture of the companies you interview and adjust your game plan to suit.
Grey ā I hope you are correct. She is looking for superstars (which makes the Gottfried hire look like even more of a panic move in hindsight.)
Agree, Gottfried hire was a panic move especially after the Smart deal went south so late in the game. She likely waited until season end to start. Not this time.
Not disagreeing when I say she is looking for superstar results — and she’s hired 2 relatively young coaches with ambition and a plan to fulfill that ambition. I don’t think it’s personal ambition as much as it is program ambition. Both can co-exist but program ambition is the one that interests me. Another commonality is work ethic. They will not be out worked. That’s needed when resurrecting a dormant program IMO. IOW NC State needs more than a good coach to climb back to the top.
Her last 2 major hires have personalities as different as night and day. I think we need to look beyond personalities. This will not sound good to many here but both DD & KK spoke about similar values. One thing they have in common is the goal of taking their respective programs beyond mere “improvement” and aiming for big time results.
IMO those results may be slower getting here than we like, but they are coming. We are in a big pond with some very big fish. This ain’t your father’s ACC.
State had a long, long time to assess candidates.
And to assess facts, too, you might add. Unfortunately TheAliasTroll wasn’t the one to assess the facts so the assessment of the search committee is wrong. If you don’t think so, go back and count the number of times he has made the same opinion known that the facts as HE sees them indicate that State did not get it’s man.
Kind of confusing isn’t it? The search committee evaluated all the facts and made it’s choice. The AD and Chancellor exercised that choice by offering KK a contract which KK accepted. But according to TheAliasTroll State didn’t get it’s man. Why? Because the assessment of the facts differs from his assessment, the choice is wrong.
TheAliasTroll offers to agree to disagree. No use arguing with a man who doesn’t believe that facts require assessment. Take his offer!!
