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and yet his rankings have gone down the past 3 seasons to almost where we where before
Would you care to share the numbers of the rankings? Or are you shooting from the hip?
Yes Grey we must.
No, Pack 1997 we mustn’t.
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
I just have one question for you guys, must we always reiterate the past when talk about what’s possible in the future?
grey: Given history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it, I think we probably should be mindful of what happened in the past.
ryebread, did you miss where I acknowledged I still see the past which must improve?
I want to take a look at the application of the “history” point you spent so much time on..
Looking to see how we did on 3rd and long in 2013 seems kind of foolish to me. Looking to see how we did on 3rd and long in the 3rd quarter, is more realistic. Looking at how we did in our last 2 or 3 games seems to be a better indicator of how we might do in our next game than looking at how we did in 2015 or 2014. I’d say the the History repeating itself analogy looses some, not all, of it’s usefulness in predicting athletic success.
There are many down right horrible examples in sports history. Like the manager who went to the mound and reminded the pitcher (history) to NOT threw a certain pitch and the batter hit it out of the park? That little reminder cost somebody a World Series.
I say give positive instructions, not negative reminders from history. Don’t remind the kicker of the miss that cost us the Clemson game. Doesn’t seem to be the kind of thing that builds confidence and confidence is a big part of athletic success or so I’ve always believed. Yet you say “history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it.” Seems more likely that remembering past history, good or bad, while performing is worse than useless.
I’m sure it’s a waste of time to try to point out that there are options other than ignoring the past or being mindful of the past, but here goes. Sports psychologists have a concept called “complete the past.” One successful coach I know of actually uses the Rear view Mirror/Windshield analogy in the first team meeting after the previous game to complete the past. He writes what happened — the good and the bad — inside a rear view mirror he draws on the white board. After acknowledging and covering “the past” they declare the past complete and move to the white board with the “windshield” on it. The windshield is symbolic of looking forward to what they are going to do to get ready for the next game. Over simplification I’m sure but filing the past in the past drawer gives a different future than filing the past in the present drawer (being mindful of the past).
Comparing TOB’s record with Russell Wilson and Mike Glennon at QB to DD’s record in 2013 with Pete Thomas and that ex-wide receiver at QB, is rather disingenuous. I’m also not impressed with those who think all Debbie Yow looks at is the W/L record. She’s an ex-coach and knows that there’s more to the condition of a program than just the W/L record. True enough the W/L record makes it difficult to see. Just as looking at a big house and fancy cars does not tell of the financial condition of a man. Looking at TOB’s 2012 W/L record does not tell the condition our football program was in nor did DD’s 2016 W/L record tell the actual condition of our football program. The W/L record tells how successful the team was in 2016 but not the condition of the program.
I’d say that comparing dividends compiled when assets were stripped creating a false picture of company’a health to dividends compiled when the company’s assets are being restored is an unwise comparison. TOB took the assets he acquired when he took over and used them to build a decent w/l record but failed to restock the assets (recruiting and development) for 2013 and forward.
Who knows how it’s all going to turn out but we are going to have to play the games with players we have in 2017, not players we had in the past. That I do know. 😉
I’ve gone back over this and tried to take out any smart-arse that my have crept in. If I missed any, please know that none is intended.
Go Pack!
I’m always excited by success for the Pack but more or less, I treat draft day like LOI signings. We shall see…
The guys seem to get bigger, stronger and faster
That is a heck of start to developing a football team. Add strong O-line and D-lines and most coaches would take that to build on. The LBs lacked depth last year. That seems to be corrected. The DB’s coming up are deeper than in the past thus we have good competition there.
We’ve lost Dayes and Frasier but still have good RBs and depth there with Hines moving to his natural position. According to our WR guru, Mr. DOG, we have size and speed at WR and good hands. Plus those guys can and will block.
Our Senior TE is a great blocker and with JSam at H-back we can compete there. Thad Moss will be missed as will McKever but we can survive their leaving without undue ill effect.
With an O-line that can hang with a D-line that is said to be one of the best in the country, good things can happen on offense. Remember we have a QB who put us in position to win 10 games in 2016.
Much of the spring was spent working on special teams — an area that in addition to kicking needs improvement and consistency.
Not loaded with super stars but IMO a well developed football team.
………………………………………………….
Recruiting wise more 4-star recruits are interested in State than ever before — like one dude who’s 6-6, 315 pounds.We have a QB commitment from NJ who is rated 4-star nearly everywhere. He was MVP at a regional Elite11 QB camp and is invited to the national Elite11. In his junior video he looks great — hitting receivers in stride with 40/50 yard strikes. At 6-2, 200 as a junior he’s still growing. He looked to have good if not great speed also.
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
I just have one question for you guys, must we always reiterate the past when talk about what’s possible in the future?
Grey – that’s a great sign. However, I think our OL was pretty solid last year.
I do believe we have a gem in our current OL coach.
Like you say our O-line was pretty solid last year and still couldn’t block our D-line. This says more for our D-line than is a put down of our O-line. Hard to think of any facet of NC State football as really outstanding but our D-line was/is.
100% agree Dwayne Ledford is a gem of a O’line coach. Let’s hope Kevin Patrick turns out to be as much of a gem as Ledford. 🙂
Correction… Last year our O-line could not block our D-line. Not so this year. Not that they are pushing the D-line around but are holding their own.
State is ranked #5 in the ACC by ESPN pre-season. Unfortunately it’s ranked 4th in the Atlantic Division. The fact that we have to play FSU, Clemson & L’ville does not matter.
At the coaches Caravan at Reynolds Thursday night, Doeren said he had a confession to make. Our O-line could not block our D-line. This spring they are competing and hard at it. Even as physical as it gets there is no chippiness. They are helping each other get better. One Pack. One Goal.
If our O-line can block our D-line then that should be bad news for some of our opponents.
I’ve not really seen an NFL impact player come out of DD’s classes yet.
How many classes has DD had. You say it like he’s had several 5th year classes.
Most of 2013 was TOB’s class. 2014 class will be true seniors this year. I know we all like to point to what a lousy coach DD is but let’s at least be somewhat fair.And let’s face it, football is a game that is usually won in the off-season…which is where the process stuff is key.
Glad you pointed this out. (The rest of your post was pretty much right on as well.) The process is Doeren’s strength — that and organization.
I went to a few practices the first year and the football alumnus I was with said something like, ‘I have never seen a practice as organized as this.’ He’s not totally rigid either.
We practice before school now because the players requested it. It makes arranging classes much easier and they aren’t worn out from practice during the time they are studying. It says a lot about the kind of students the players are to make this kind of request. (Hey, don’t dem have any classes you don’t have to go to class or study like we do here on da Hill?)
Funny how you hear what you want to hear. I never said they were small and slow.
We do not have size or speed at wide out,
Easy with the “you hear what you want to hear” accusations. You and PackofMac were both in the same conversation with Mr. DOG. No need to get snarky over an easy to make mistake. I was following along and thought you had said it also. Tracking back to verify something like this is a pain since if the conversation is on 2 pages, you lose your post when you switch back and forth.
Disagreement in discussion is fine. It’s all opinion but let’s keep it cool.
I meant to say that this spring coaches stressed red zone offense and special teams. IOW we put the work in where it was most badly needed. With team experience practices went better and were more efficient. IMO we will reap the benefits of our S&C program and the red shirting of some players this coming year. And we have senior leadership like never before. It’s all good.
Grey: I appreciate the healthy discourse. I must say that there are obvious WTF plays every single game:
– Fake punts when leading yet deep in one’s own territory
– Time outs before kickoffs
– Down and distance issues consistently, particularly around the goal lineNow one could point to kicking and I would agree with them. The kicking game under this staff is the worst it has been since I started watching NC State football in the early 80s. Some of the kicking issues may be confused/crossed/causal for some of the WTF coaching decisions. Heck, if I were DD, I’d call up Frank Beamer and see if he’d be interested in 2nd in command and in charge of special teams.
The other issue is momentum. Get a lead and DD sits on it. He doesn’t try to put teams away. Heck, we tried to give the bowl game away this past season and it could have gotten really tight if it for a couple of outstanding individual plays.
On offense, I’m not sure we improved with our OC hire. Great pedigree and all, but the fact was that Boise had their worst season in years with him calling the plays. This season they were right back to their winning ways. I never sensed an identity game in and game out and we clearly were pass happy in several of out losses, seemingly ignoring our stable of backs and what I thought was solid OL play that improved all year. I think this year will tell us a lot.
On receivers, we’ve got the horses and the speed. It’s either scheme, QB play or poor route running. Given I’m not seeing the games in person, it is kind of hard for me to tell (TV only follows the ball).
QB play needs to improve this year. Like the kicking it has been consistently bad under DD. Yeah we probably got spoiled by Rivers, Wilson and even Glennon, but MOC got a lot more out of his QBs than DD has. A team like State is going to need good QB play in order to really do anything.
“I appreciate the healthy discourse.” Thanks, Rye, me too. It is exactly what I come to these sites for, not to be snarky or have clever insults. I can get that at home. LOL Just kidding and have no basis to say that at all.
– Fake punts when leading yet deep in one’s own territory
– Time outs before kickoffs
– Down and distance issues consistently, particularly around the goal lineDoeren is responsible for everything that happens but he doesn’t make all the mistakes the team makes but assumes the responsibility. Rumor has it that the fake punt was called by a player on the field. That hasn’t been done since, has it?
The TOs before a kickoff was in my opinion was a teaching moment. IMO bad timing for a teaching moment but not mismanagement of TO’s which is what he is getting credit for. Those early days must have been a true learning experience for Doeren. He has never had to deal with that level of inexperience and lack of talent before. Hopefully we are over the hump with a young coach taking his lumps learning to be an HC in a P-5 conference. When will we as fans stop looking in the rear view mirror for WTF moments and dragging them into the prescient? Dwelling in the past (looking in the rear view mirror) detracts from looking at the future. The game is played in the present but the plans for the game are developed looking in the future — both near and distant futures.Down and distance issues only occur when what we do fails. Logical, what we fans think would work, gets stopped by good defenses. I’ve seen what I thought were WTF moments on Sunday were professional coaches making big bucks were calling the shots.
One thing that tempers my thinking about offense issues is our OC is also gathering experience. The question you have to ask is “Do I want a bright, innovative, young OC or do I want an experienced OC with a limited up side.”
Doeren has had to make that decision because he had to dismiss Canada — and he had to do that — otherwise it would not have happened. IOW there is a behind the scenes reason that will never be made public IMO.I like your kicking comments. Well played. Just hiring Beamer as a consultant would be a cool move.
I have the same or similar thoughts about momentum and killer instinct. Doeren doesn’t seem to have the killer instinct. Seems to not want to embarrass other coaches by “piling it on.” He should watch the Md game where we came back from certain lose to big win.
Doeren is a very smart man. I’m believing he will learn from his mistakes when the coaches review their own performance — and they do that every year.
We both know that high end QBs are in great demand. Most are ID’d as early as 8th and 9th grade. These guys have been courted for years. QB’s are not like linemen who can be developed through S&C programs and taught “trench skills”. Doeren not only didn’t have a high end QB, he started out with a converted 2nd string WR who was injured in the first game of Doeren’s first season here. How bad is that? Looking out of the windshield we have a very good QB commit for 2018. He’s hitting receivers in stride in the 40 to 50 yard range and he has QB measurables. Brissette filled in nicely while we restocked the talent cupboard.
I disagree somewhat with you OL comments but not entirely. I’ve expressed my opinion about that in an earlier post.
One good thing about Doeren, he’s mistake free in 2017. 🙂
Again thanks for the conversation. It’s hard to find decent football talk this time of year.
COW either way we will still have the same problem. I don’t see how we are better this coming season, when very little will have changed.
In a sport of inches very little has to change to make a difference. One “change” Doeren mentioned at the Coaches Caravan last night is the difference in the OL from this year to last year. He said and I quote, “Last year the O-line couldn’t block the D-line.” He went on to say that this year the 2 are going at it — competing. He also was very complimentary about how the 2 lines, while going at, it they are working with each other, not fighting each other. He seemed proud of the team in that regard. I am too.
We didn’t give up all that many sacks last year but our O-line was pushed into the space the QB had to work in. The QBs and the WRs get the blame but the O-line must take its share. Ball watching only lets one see a small part of the problem. I have to discipline myself to watch the O-line.
I would like to know what a WR “struggling” looks like. I know what drops and such look like but not “struggles.” Perhaps Pack1997’s friend could explain tell us what that looks like. I can’t tell if a route has not been run correctly or if a throw is off either.
A better blocking O-line is one small change that can be huge.
Mr. Dog, I apologize for stepping in to your discussion but since neither of you have as yet mentioned the O-line as a sometimes problem, I thought I would.
If I had a bitch and I always do it would be we haven’t developed Mclendon…..suprised he hasn’t transferred.
Perhaps he knows he’s the problem, not the coaches.
if we had a QB who could get out of the pocket and make line backers and safeties honest….damn would things change. Simple really, don’t expect it to be understood
IT REALLY IS SIMPLE. That’s why all the rest of the D-1 teams do it and are scoring 50 points a game. Our’s should hire you to help them.
Cherry pickin’ time.
Whomever said that these receivers can’t find separation is living in the not so near past, and certainly has not scoped Harmon, Louis, Trowel, and Hines like one should before offering such an opinion. Oh…I forgot the return of Ramos.Then, there is the unknown in foot injury, redshirt freshman, CJ Riley. I’m a wideout kinda guy, and we have some good ones.
Was your exclusion of Meyers intentional or a senior moment? I’m betting on it being a senior moment, brain fart.
I think DD would be better if he just took the headset off during the game. He seems worth 5-7 points to the other team per game based on a lot of the in game, situational and time management decisions. His record would be a whole lot better with that 5-7 points a game back.
It’s April and not a lot of Wolfpack football to talk about so I’m taking the other side of this argument.
Before 2016 talent cost us far more games than decisions we didn’t agree with.
In 2016 put the points on the board that decent kicking cost us and then tell me how much better his record would have been with better “in game, situational and time management decision”. (The 2 losses after disappointing loses to CU and FSU are a different matter IMO. Football is an emotional game. Playing following season altering loses is tough emotionally.)Did you happen to catch the Super Bowl? Everybody knew those 2-point conversions were coming and all the rest of the comeback plays. Not a helluva lot Atlanta could do about it. There was probably an “in game, situational or time management decision” that could be said cost them that game. It would take 20-20 hindsight to see it, however. We average fans are smarter than all those coaches: we would not have made those mistakes. <sarcasm alert>
ryebread, this isn’t an argument to say you are wrong, just looking from a different point of view — an excuse to talk Wolfpack football. Go Pack!!
I think we’re building the talent the right way. We’re strong in the lines and then build out from there. Chuck and TOB seemed to get good skill position players but never really had great lines (outside of a season here or there).
Agreed. We are managing the talent (red shirting) and developing the talent in our S&C program and coaching up all that 3-star talent. Not many programs are red shirting players other than their freshman years. That IMO is managing talent. Our S&C program is amazing. Fat is gone: muscle is in it’s place. To give an idea who effective our S&C program is, one 300 pound 4-star recruit is on the 2nd OL because he needs more strength to play against DLs like Clemson, FSU, L’ville, and BC. No big bellies on our “hogs.” Our line coaches appear to be almost over qualified. We could be in for some fun football.
What I do see is a foundation being built. I thought TOB would do that but it did not happen and when he left the cupboard was bare.
Tractor57, like I said to ryebread, this isn’t a real disagreement, just looking from a different point of view — an excuse to talk Wolfpack football.
We are standing on the shoulders of the program that TOB started to build (and the culture he was creating). Unfortunately for whatever reason as you say TOB fell short of the mark. You don’t refill the cupboard of a P-5 program with freshmen and expect to win right away.
The foundation of talent is being built but IMO the structure DD is building — including but not limited to S&C, facility improvement, personal development, leadership training — will insure our football team’s future.
I intentionally left out recruiting. Recruiting today is like basketball — the game is played at a level most of us can only imagine. Social media, texting, video, background checks, etc., were unheard of recruiting tools a few short years ago. You want to play with the big boys — and Doeren does — you have to be on top of it with a quality recruiting organization.
All that gets the recruit on campus. Then comes the part that gets you from being part of a recruits top 5 to being the program a recruit commits to. What meves a recruit to number 1? Relationship with coaches, how a recruit thinks he fits in athletically and socially, and facilities such as living spaces, locker rooms, practice facilities and the one thing that hardly gets mentioned but is crucial, the job the players who are here do selling the program by their enthusiasm for the program.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here but it is April and hard to find anything of subtance to talk about to do with Wolfpack football. These are just my thoughts and what I think I see. I’m sure some folks will be pleased to tell me how full of sh!t I am. No matter. Just keep talking that Wolfpack football.
Not to worry. We’ll be a cinch to beat Boston College this next season.
I think we will beat BC but it’s not a guaranteed win. BC finished the regular season 6-6 just like we did. They improved dramatically on offense and will continue to improve in all probability. Couple an improving offense with a stout defense and you have the makings for unexpected wins.
Thanks for your usual put down attempt, 13OT. SFN wouldn’t be the same without you.
Well, you can grow peaches in it!
·
· BEING A FARMER IS TOUGH!
A farmer was selling his peaches door to door. He knocked on a door and a shapely 30-something woman dressed in a very sheer negligee answered the door.
He raised his basket to show her the peaches and asked, “Would you like to buy some peaches?”
She pulled the top of the negligee to one side and asked, “Are they as firm as this?”
He nodded his head and said, “Yes ma’am,” and a little tear ran from his eye.
Then she pulled the other side of her negligee off asking, “Are they nice and pink like this?”
The farmer said, “Yes,” and another tear came from the other eye.
Then she unbuttoned the bottom of her negligee and asked, “Are they as fuzzy as this?”
He again said, “Yes,” and broke down crying.
She asked, “Why on earth are you crying?”
Drying his eyes he replied,
“The drought got my corn, the flood got my soy beans, a tornado leveled my barn, and now I think I’m gonna get fvcked out of my peaches.”What is more important to me is the answer to the “why” of the transfer…same would be for Moss as well.
If it’s simply sour grapes that’s one thing, if it’s -” I have lost faith in the organization ” – that’s entirely another
I would be surprised if we ever learn why. “I appreciate all the coaches have done for me… blah, blah, blah.” We wish so-and-so good luck in his future endeavers… blah, blah, blah.” Your list of “whys” is somewhat limited. For some (not McKever) I would think not fitting in with the work ethic at NC State would rank high for transfers if the truth be known. Some kids are not ready, if they ever will be, for the rigors of D-1 football especially at a school that is creating a blue-collar, hands in the dirt culture.
Those guys practice in the morning before school. There is no sleeping in – ever. Thunder Dan is keeping pictures and progress records for all to see. Not giving it your best is known. And I’m hoping the day will come when kids commit to NC State they are here to be all they can be. Josh Jones took full advantage of what’s available here. Others will to. The only loser in this is Frasier IMO.
And yes for whatever reason the men’s BB program was MUCH better then.
That “whatever reason’s” name was Everett Case. Coach Case had Reynolds Coliseum built, brought the Dixie Classic holiday tournament to Reynolds, won 9 regular season championships and 8 tournament championships.
we hired Holtz who probably is the best FB coach we ever had.
Earle Edwards was the best football coach we ever had. He had to play home games vs. EweNC in Chapel Hill for 10 years our stadium was so small and decrepit. Still in the 17 years he coached here he won or tied 5 conference championships. Carter Stadium was completed during Earle’s time as HC. His best national ranking was 3rd.
Lou Holtz stood on Earle Edward’s shoulders to accomplish what he did at North Carolina State University (as he always called it) but he didn’t have to recruit players to play in old, 20,000+/- seat Riddick Stadium (1907-1965).
I would imagine Clemson’s special teams’ guys – particularly the ones they put on the line to try and block kicks, will be substantially bigger than those of Carson-Newman’s opponents, and Mr. Wise is likely to be more scared of that, than Clemson will be of us (and him).
We will have enough real problems without imaginary ones. I doubt “Mr. Wise” will be scared or concerned about Clemson’s special team guys (or anybody else’s for that matter) unless being scared is part of his pre-kick routine.
It wasn’t the opponent’s special team guys that initially caused problems for Carson-Newman. It was coordination of the snapper, holder and kicker — along with blocking assignments. It took a game or two to get that sorted out.
Last year our snap appeared to be off target a few times. That will cause a hitch in the timing of the kick. This affects even the pros. This spring our special teams received quit a bit of attention — not only our kicking but all aspects of special team play. I doubt being scared of Clemson was on the agenda.
Worried about Wise coming from a D-2 school? The Seattle Seahawk’s kicker followed a similar path that Mr. Wise is following except that Steven Hauschka kicked for a D-3 team before his year at State.
Grey: I’m all for supporting Keatts, but there is no need to slight Archie. He had a great run at Dayton and did about everything that one could reasonably expect. His teams improved every year.
I don’t think I slighted Miller at all. Here’s what I said, “Miller maintained Dayton at a reasonably high level but nothing spectacular.”
2003–04 Brian Gregory 24–9 12–4 NCAA 1st Round
2004–05 Brian Gregory 18–11 10–6
2005–06 Brian Gregory 14–17 6–10
2006–07 Brian Gregory 19–12 8–8
2007–08 Brian Gregory 23–11 8–8 NIT Quarterfinals
2008–09 Brian Gregory 27–8 11–5 NCAA 2nd Round
2009–10 Brian Gregory 25–12 8–8 NIT Champions
2010–11 Brian Gregory 22–14 7–9 NIT 1st Round2011–12 Archie Miller 20–13 9–7 NIT 1st Round
2012–13 Archie Miller 17–13 7–9
2013–14 Archie Miller 26–11 10–6 NCAA Elite Eight
2014–15 Archie Miller 27–9 13–5 NCAA 3rd Round
2015–16 Archie Miller 25–8 14–4 NCAA 1st Round
2016–17 Archie Miller 24–8 15–3 NCAAHis teams improved every year. He took one to the Elite 8 …
…and then the 3rd round, then the 1st round. That’s not “improving every year.” That’s called succeeding a little less.
He inherited a shaky program from Gregory.
Just looking at the records it’s a stretch to say Archie inherited a shaky program. Purnell inherited a shaky program but not Miller. It’s one matter for a team to have a down year or two but to call Brian Gregory’s program a Dayton “shaky” is a bit much IMO.
I get that all of that doesn’t guarantee success here or at IU. I think he’s a good coach
I think Miller is a “good” coach also. I just don’t think he’s done enough to be called “great”. Of course I come from an era where every boy didn’t get a trophy for participating and a “great” coach had to do something to be called “great.”
I don’t think Keatts has a better “guarantee” to be successful than Miller, but I can see where Keatts has shown more aptitude for raising a program that’s mired in mediocrity than Miller. I would have been happy with either one. IOW I like the one we got.
I don’t wanna be in your shoes, right now. ‘Cause it will be headed your way. Rightly so, I might add.
Nah, me and Rick are trying to be a little more sociable on here. Besides, it was a clean bust, just showed who he was the way he went about it.
GreyW, WTF . Case didn’t win a natchamp, but went to a final 4. If you don’t understand why Case is revired then you need to read a little history.
Yeah, it was Sloan, not Case. Senior moment, brain fart. I’m surprised Rick didn’t catch that.
I found a book of tickets for the first Dixie Classics in my Stocking at Christmas when I was 13 or 14. Later I sold cokes in Reynolds in the 50s during HS and waited on tables in the old College Inn Restaurant and the Inn while going to State.
One day at lunch Case was meeting with the the big hitters of the day and I had the good fortune of being assigned to their room. I was 6-5 at the time (less now) and one of the guys said to me, “Son, you’re nice and tall. How come you aren’t on our basketball team?” Maybe you guys wouldn’t but I felt humiliated. What do you say, I ain’t good enough? Coach Case spoke right up, “He’ll be out with us this fall.” I’ll never forget that act of kindness.
I was in the Greensboro Coliseum when State came back in OT from 7 down to beat UCLA in the semis. I remember very little about the game but do remember the head ache I had after the game. In the finals Marquette seemed like a walk in the park.
You might oughtta consider cutting old guys a little slack — brain farts and senior moments, ya know. 😉
