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Rye,
Glad I could fill some space while you gathered some real information. Can you get any info on OSU’s practice facilities. I think poor practice facilities would be a hindrance to landing an up and comer type coach. And it’s clear what a difference the IPF has made with the football team.I am disappointed that she didn’t make a change, but I completely understand that the finances are not there to buy him out or to replace him with a quality coach.
Sacco, I sincerely believe it’s more than just money. Money won’t get a quality coach. The coaching fraternity talks and all the coaches know about our practice facility shortcomings. We don’t see behind the scenes. Pop may have been promised a new mat and mat room to practice on to entice him to come here. How do we do that? Lord knows we need one. Think about it. We don’t have enough mats to train on. Our meet facility (Reynolds) is outstanding but not our practice space.
Read what Mr. Dog said in response to my question. Sam likely knew we weren’t going to get practice facilities and/or assistant-coach money. Esposito was a good friend of AD Valvano and more than likely knew what was and what wasn’t going down. He also knew the financial position of the University.
It’s easy to fault Debbie Yow for this and that. I know she is lobbying, spread-sheets and all that, for money for all sports. Favoritism is a cheap shot and unwarranted (not you). It’s a bang for the buck situation. I’ve mentioned the Title (whatever) has to be considered or bad consequences occur.
I don’t mean to go on and on so I’ll close. Lets enjoy the recruiting.
I’m puzzled as to why they are occurring at all.
That’s simple enough to answer… It’s what Debbie does with the head coach of all our sports at the end of the sport season.
We no longer have a Lacrosse team for the same reason we don’t have practice facilities for baseball and a diving facility for swimming — budget, i.e., money. NC State has to make some tough decisions about where to spend the money we have each year. Factor in the requirement to have equal athletic opportunities for women and we are between a rock and a hard place.
I see no point in making statements about our administration being satisfied with mediocrity. Ranking 15th in the Director’s Cup demonstrates they care. Many of us only care about men’s basketball, football and baseball. Some schools have chosen to go that way. Market analyis likely shows football is more bang for the buck for University branding, then men’s basketball, then the all the rest. As Rye stated not much return on money spent on baseball success.
Enough, enough. Greywolf, go waste your time somewhere else for a while.
The question I didn’t see addressed is why did Ray Tanner leave after 9 years? Was it lack of training facilities? Was it salary? Answers here would give us something to look at besides the W/L.
Doeren took Debbie Yow out to watch a practice in a cold, driving rain. The wind inverted her umbrella. Doeren asked her how she thought we would do if we had some recruits on official visits. The IPF got moved up from 6th on the priority list to 2nd behind Reynolds.
You can’t work with hitters without indoor batting cages and pitchers without indoor places to pitch, etc. Are the practice facilities sufficient to entice a good, new baseball coach or NC State a death wish for bright, young baseball coaches? Is Avent the best we can do with the baseball practice facilities we have and the salary we are willing to pay?
I’m not for keeping Avent. I just wanted to get real with the options we have.
It’s as if we prioritized our sports and mens Basketball was #1, Football #3 and baseball will be will be somewhere after that. (#2 Reynolds was a multi-sport deal)
Commitment at this point means the recruit has chosen a school and committed to sign a letter of intent. There are 2 sign dates. One in December and one in February. Once they sign the LOI they are bound by NCAA rules.
The only trifecta I’m interested in today is 4 star Joshua Harris, 4-star CJ Clark and 4-star Zonovon Knight. Hit that trifecta and the trifecta of 4-star Walter Burrell, 4-star Derrick McClendon and 5-star Quavaris Crouch
Of the trifecta of 4-star Walter Burrell, 4-star Derrick McClendon and 5-star Quavaris Crouch, I missed on McClendon and don’t know about Burrell. Quavaris Crouch would make up for those 2 and then some.
Can you imagine Crouch backing up Savion Jackson, Clark, Harris and perhaps Freshwater if he gets his grades worked out? I realize Crouch is a long shot but having his mother be a State fan and his brother already on the team gives us a punchers chance. Crouch paired with Drake Thomas would give us dominance in the box and some serious bragging rights for North Carolina.
I was going to say our first concern should be Randy Woodson. His contract is up next year also. Keep Woodson in the fold and I don’t worry at all.
Just for the record:
3uck Charlotte.
McCallum
Mac,
I took my Geritol and STILL don’t understand this?Give it up Sacco. You’re in a pissing contest with a skunk. (That’s a compliment, Mac, indicating superior ability in a particular domain.)
Mac is cautioning against getting too high on Clark and cites his reasons. Sacco is saying Mac’s reasons don’t forecast Clark’s not being great for us. I tend to side with Sacco because I’m the quintessential optimist. 😉
BTW My guess is that Clark got coaching at the Doeren camp on what weaknesses he needs to work on. Clark can’t do anything about the level of competition he faces but he can do something about his technique, strength and agility. Developing players is what we do best.
Having way too much fun checking out the trifecta of recruits who have committed, are likely to commit and possibly could commit. The only trifecta I’m interested in today is 4 star Joshua Harris, 4-star CJ Clark and 4-star Zonovon Knight. Hit that trifecta and the trifecta of 4-star Walter Burrell, 4-star Derrick McClendon and 5-star Quavaris Crouch and we will be looking at conference and national championship possibilities in 2021/22.
Just a little “trifecta” report. In the first Trifecta 4-star CJ Clark committed. Mac says “The Clark kid plays in a weak conference against weak competition. Biggest kid on the field, typically lined up against players he outweighs by 75-100 lbs easily.” You can’t coach that kind of size but “Body by Thunder” can make that biggest kid on the field” the “strongest kid on the field.” Coach Patrick can coach technique and the opposition provided by Coach Ledford’s OL will not be outweighed by 75-100 lbs.
“Reminds me of another North Stanly player… Antonio Williams who as a aback up RB averaged 6-2 ypc.
I’d rather be an optimist and a fool than a pessimist and right.”
? Albert EinsteinPutting kids in the league is a huge recruiting tool and I can’t remember us having so many commitments this early ever, we’re usually fighting it out to get some late commits to salvage our class.
I think its a good sign and as far as elite? I’ll settle for Dick Sheridan solid year after year.
I know it’s just a play on words but based on our being in the top 5 of so many highly sought after recruits, I assert our days of “settling for” are coming to an end.
If Harmon and/or Meyers go in the draft along with Steph Louis, it’s possible for us to have multiple WR’s taken in 2019. The OL is looking like another multiple draftee possibility with Jones and Bradbury. Prescod could as well with a good year. Lord knows he’s got the size. Bradbury may be like Jim Ritcher having to move to guard to get playing time.
I know I’m biased but I wonder what your “sources” have to say about Bradbury or Louis’s chance of being drafted. I wouldn’t expect you to put your son on the spot by quoting him but an “I think” coming from you would mean a lot.
Less than 5 weeks before start of fall camp. Student run 7 on 7’s are going full tilt.
Go Pack!
We need talent (coaches and players) but we should never forget the need for that atmosphere.
The recruits visiting get a feel for the culture here at NC State. As has been said before it’s work ethic, family, community, etc. Recruits who see and feel the culture in the locker room and want that in their lives are putting NC State on their lists of schools to consider. On the other side of the coin potential recruits who don’t pass muster on fitting into that culture, don’t get offered. It’s wrong for me to do so but when I see a good player from our state who gets an offer from the holes and we don’t offer, I can’t help but wonder if he doesn’t pass muster on character issues, be it work ethic, 1Pack1Goal, or academics or what. It’s one thing for a young man to be struggling with academics because of IQ issues than to be struggling because of lack of effort.
Winning may put us over the top in the future but just winning will never be NC State with Dave Doeren at the helm.
well, in my opinion, DD is doing it right.
Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.Bradley Chubb is dressing like a businessman, not some hip hop singer. Teronne Prescod has eliminated his red, top “do” and now is “dressed” to impress in the business world. They say clothes make the man. Sometimes they make him a clown.
Sure they are college age kid but you can see them maturing as they age in the program. Not a lot gets said about the social programs that Doeren has established to prepare players for life after football. How to dine using appropriate silverware etc., is likely to impress even those who don’t need it.
A lot of schools have winning records. Not a lot of schools are investing in their players to prepare them for life after football. Citing football reasons for recruits to choose NC State only puts State down in the group of also rans.
It’s great to see you guys touting the culture and Doeren for creating a football program that stands out of the crowd. Thanks to Sacco in particular for stepping up and writing the lead post for this discussion.
I love the videos we’ve seen of the walk-ons getting their scholarships as this attests to Doeren’s ‘family environment.
Seeing those walk-ons getting the love from the scholarship players contrasts so greatly with another school where 4 scholarship players beat up a walk-on for talking to one of the skolly’s girl friend or some such nonsense.
Walk-ons are genuinely appreciated and valued as part of our team.
Although I’m certain that Lou Holtz probably did the same thing in his day with role players,
Remember the Rat Pack? Holtz’s name for special teams. Mostly freshmen were in the Rat Pack.
well, in my opinion, DD is doing it right.
Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.My work philosophy was “Work now to earn the raise I’m going to get.”
I’m going to go spend my energy creating the karma for Quavaris Crouch to commit. Maybe Derrick McLendon, DE too.
I like the sound of that. On some level, it’s not the X’s and O’s, but the Jimmies and Joes.
Do you remember President Kennedy saying, “We will have a man on the moon in this decade.”? He was standing for our doing something we did not even have the technology invented to do. That was very powerful speaking. He literally spoke something into existence with his stand.
I’m standing for Quavaris Crouch choosing the Wolfpack and committing to us.
DD may have left, but it wouldn’t have been due to the fans. It would have been to:
1) Reset the clock
2) Add $$$ to his bank account
I wouldn’t have blamed him at all if he had left for either reason. He ultimately has to do what he feels best for his career and his family.One thing he was fighting for was more money for his assistants and staff. Don’t know how true it was but DD said his wife not wanting to leave was the deciding factor. I say it jokingly but what was he going to do with the extra million? Pay alimony? Lot’s of failed marriages in the sports coaching professions. I did a list on another thread showing the ages of coaches children. All were married with at least 1 young child except Aaron Henry, who is single, and Hux and Roof. Doeren want’s his coaches home for dinner even if they have to come back. That’s big to guy who have new wives and young kids. The coaching profession isn’t noted for great hours and time with the family.
The sun would have risen the next day. We would have still fielded a team, with some chance that it was better and some chance that it was worse. To me the program is bigger than any one coach or player.
Just thought and opinions…Could be but if most of his assistants and staff had left with him, we would be back to square one. His coaches are very loyal to him. He treats them well. Staff continuity is important in football. Not all CEO’s are of equal ability. No guarantee the next HC could handle the job of HC or CEO or both. We could have been in another 3 coach cycle trying to get back where we are now.
We would have survived but IMO been set back a few years regardless.
I’m going to go spend my energy creating the karma for Quavaris Crouch to commit. Maybe Derrick McLendon, DE too.
If you think that Yow was going to survive a “DD or you” type ultimatum from the $$$ people, then I believe you are the one who needs to “get real.” DD was her guy. Gott was her guy as well. Gott was imploding. Had DD hit that second trifecta, Yow’s seat would have gotten red hot. She’d have made very short work out of him, particularly given the lack of a long standing personal relationship like she had with Gott. If she gave Gott the boot mid-season, she’d not have hesitated with DD.
To your point about the today, then I agree that we should focus on today. No more saying things like “our fans are running off DD” or revisionist garbage, and I won’t remind you of why DD might not have been here. Deal?
You can disabuse yourself of the notion that $$$ people or anybody else is giving Debbie Yow an ultimatum. The only person who can do that is Randy Woodson. $$$ people couldn’t get Lee Fowler fired, for goodness sakes, how in the heck do you think they can get Yow fired?
As for your “trifecta” story, that dog won’t hunt. The best “fans” can do to “run a coach off” is through heavy doses of vitriol like SFN gave HWSNBN and Doeren.
The only trifecta I’m interested in today is 4 star Joshua Harris, 4-star CJ Clark and 4-star Zonovon Knight.
Hello!! Clark is in.
Grey: go back and check the last 50 years of NC state football history. No head coach has survived hitting the trifecta twice. They can survive it once, but cannot again. Doing it twice is typically a sign that the program is just not healthy. I don’t think DD would have survived it either. Hey, what do I know? Doesn’t really matter because he pulled a rabbit out of his hat.
Rye: Not interested in NC state football history. That was then, this is now. Debbie Yow is not firing and hiring out of a history book. Get real.
Having way too much fun checking out the trifecta of recruits who have committed, are likely to commit and possibly could commit. The only trifecta I’m interested in today is 4 star Joshua Harris, 4-star CJ Clark and 4-star Zonovon Knight. Hit that trifecta and the trifecta of 4-star Walter Burrell, 4-star Derrick McClendon and 5-star Quavaris Crouch and we will be looking at conference and national championship possibilities in 2021/22.
Rye, seriously. Get your head out of your past and enjoy what’s possibly the greatest recruiting class we ever had. No more speculation about Doeren getting fired. Didn’t happen. Ain’t going to happen. 😉
Two m
ore commits for the 2019 class has moved the overall class to #23. Doeren has managed at this point to out-recruit UN*!!5-star Quavaris Crouch is visiting Wednesday while helping move in his brother who is a freshman Packer. We are recruiting Crouch to play LB. It’s somewhat of a long shot but the word is his family favors NC State and wants him to play close to home.
4-star corner-back Warren Burrell has cut his list to 4: Auburn, Florida, Tennessee and NC State and is visiting us on an official visit next week. The teams he eliminated were Georgia, Notre Dame, Ohio State and Penn State. Hard to believe we are in that level of competition. Win, lose or draw we are competing with big-time teams for big-time recruits.
We have an additional handful of 4-star recruits we are expecting to commit. Life is good.
Gray: I have never claimed to have insider information. As you say, anyone who is not the Chancellor, the AD or a handful of big money donors, and DD really knew that situation. DD may not have known it either. Some of those may have a strong desire for revisionist history based on a current situation.
Ray: You make a great argument but most of your argument is comparing CTC’s 7th season with DD’s 4th season. Amato’s teams finished 5–6 in 2004, 7–5 in 2005, and 3–9 in 2006. Amato had no saving grace. He just endured his 3rd straight loss and was 3-9 overall to the holes.
Amato came into the job with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement and it was contagious. I know I was excited and enthusiastic. He brought in a great group of coaches. While he had no previous HC experience, he had been Bowden’s right-hand man for years literally managing the FSU program.
Doeren OTOH came in with little or no HC experience, no great group of coaches. As a matter of fact Doeren was behind the 8-ball for coaches when his DC took the HC job at Northern Illinois and about half the assistants stayed with him.
Fans don’t know squat about recruiting. We think each year coaches go out and talk recruits into coming to our or another school. The Sabans. Sweemeys, and others have programs within the overall football program that benefit the recruits/players and prepare them for life. They create a culture inside their programs. Not many new coaches have this knowledge and ability.
Doeren wasn’t hired because of his record at NI and he wasn’t hired because he was a charismatic recruiter who could talk recruits into flipping to NC State. He was hired because somebody clued Debbie Yow in on his knowledge of how to build a program that had integrity, was academically sound, rock solid and sustainable. And when other schools are interested in Doeren, that is what they are coveting.
Just as the other programs knew what they were after in Doeren, Debbie knew it too. Fortunately she didn’t think his first 4 year W/L record was the measure of the man as a head coach.
This analogy might make clear what I’m talking about. Some fans/ADs can see gold nuggets when they look at a w/l record but can’t see the nuggets looking at the ore That contains nuggets. To further the analogy Doeren’s recruiting staff is bringing in the raw ore for the coaches to look through for nuggets.
I truly believe the day will come when NC State will be bringing in richer ore to process (4 & 5-star recruits). Doeren has put together a staff that can process the ore (strength and conditioning staff), create useful products (position coaches turning out draftees) and will reap the benefits of the hard work (Championship and play-off contenders, major bowls, etc.).
The W/L is ultimately important but we have got to stop pulling the young carrots out of the ground to see how they are developing.
So many sources said the message from management was win or you’re fired.
“Message from management?” You just revealed the extent of your knowledge. Debbie Yow is the only management and she didn’t, wouldn’t, shouldn’t be putting out any “message” about Doeren being fired, possibly being fired or any other condition for his employment prior to her meeting with Doeren.
Rye does an excellent job of speculating on reasons why Doeren would be fired. Makes sense but it’s still speculation. People so strongly believed that Doeren was set to be fired because of the W/L before the UNC game that they thought it was fact. It was not.
We are finding out now how well Doeren had the program planned out and how the plan was to be executed. I don’t know about since then but Yow met with Doeren personally at least weekly his first five years going over the staffing, staff salaries, renovations and financing of renovations, prioritization and a myriad of other details.
99.9% of the fans back then (we are a lot smarter about these matters now) couldn’t tell squat about how the program was doing without looking at the W/L record and that didn’t reveal much. Debbie Yow was intimately aware of how the program was progressing. She was partners with Dave building the football program we are only beginning to enjoy.
The Holes are a good example illustrating how misleading the W/L can be. They had an 11-1 regular season record including a division championship. Look at how that “program” is trending. There are Wolfpack fans today who think Fedora is a great head coach. He’s a great OC and this is his second program he has let go to hell while having a great offense.
I’m sure that Yow had conversations with DD about delegating responsibilities to his coordinators. I’m equally sure he listened. Doeren is not a great field coach but so what? Drinkwitz can get it done within Doeren’s parameters. Hux, god bless him, kept his ego in check and let DD be involved without causing a problem. With Ted Roof on the sideline, Doeren needs to let Hux and Roof manage the defense.
Doeren needs his head in the game to make good decisions only he can make. He makes the “go-or-no-go” decision on 4th down. Drink makes the play call. It’s how HC’s keep good coordinators. Good OC’s double check with the HC before the play is sent in.
He’s the team communicator with the Referee and he works the referees — in a respectful manner of course. With responsibilities delegated he will make the decisions he has to make, better ones. He needs to be the head “Attaboy” man when the D has a 3 and out or a stop on 4th down or goal line stop. The those attaboys are important coming from the HC.
Debbie is Dave’s boss and she needed to coach him on things he may not have learned as a DC or with a familiar staff and NI. We give Dave credit for all he has accomplished and we should give credit to Debbie Yow for training and developing Doeren. Forget the “she shouldn’t have to’s,” somebody had to do it. It was her responsibility to do so and she did it. And I doubt he knows it.
IMO Ted Roof is going to be the key to our going over the top on defense this year and in the future. Just having him coordinating the back 5 and probably the back 7 will eliminate a lot of indecision and misalignment. Patrick doesn’t need a lot of coordinating with the D-line. With Hux in the booth and Roof on the sideline, I doubt we will recognize the results. Word is filtering out of the “locker room” our defense is going to be greatly improved. All the fear about losing 4 to the draft is just that, fear. This D-line is not going to be as good as 2017 but the defense is overall going to be much better.
