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Rye – Agreed on FSU.
Regarding Glennon – he was the one with the least control of his own situation. He had a crappy hand, and played it as well as possible. I don’t think it’s fair that he gets any criticism since he was just stating a fact. He knew that if RW comes back, he starts. His only card to play is a fair one, that’s basically like, look if I stay, I’ve been on the friggin’ I haven’t thrown a meaningful pass in a real game since high school.
OTOH, RW could have stopped chasing his baseball pipe dream and committed 100% to NC State football – which of course, Glennon had done for 4 years.
TOB is old school – and I think it’s obvious it chapped him that RW was playing baseball while the rest of his team was in Raleigh.
RW to his credit – was doing what he wanted to do – and he had every right to do it.
Heck, everyone had a right to do what they did. Sometimes this happens in life – and lots of decent options clearly don’t make the decisions easier.
I think time has shown RW to be a little flaky and perhaps selfish and spot-light seeking – but nothing much worse than that. Glennon just keeps on ending up in awkward situations through no part of his own. TOB, has come across as that old dude who says and does what he wants, not really caring about others, and collateral damage.
CD – I didn’t forget about Nicholson. He went out in the USC game this year and is now done with football.
And you are correct, he played a lot of snaps and all indications were a high football iq. He is a big loss for the lb core. I don’t think I would have been concerned about that position with him and Pratt.
But you are right about the safeties. Josh Jones was a huge loss…as would be expected. But we gave up way too many big runs in 2017. The good news is that improved the last 2 games. Whether that was opponent related or something was “fixed” is TBD.
Botb – drink is pretty good. He just needs to improve red zone efficiency. He does that and quite frankly he’s a top 5 OC.
I didn’t listen to the game as I was at a bar drinking too many hoppyums. However, I was thrilled with the way the tram responded to the 11-0 start.
Our guys got killed on the boards but they are fighting for rebounds and contesting threes. The fundamentals are there.
Yurtsven is showing that lottery pick potential. Incredible game last night and he is getting meaner, tougher and smarter every game
Which is when you outkick your coverage, (read, finish in top 3rd) – you get paid that year like a Top 3rd coach.
The question remains: what happens when you shank one or two?
You don’t get your bonus.
The salary is one thing – I’d renegotiate his salary to make it middle of the pack – and tell him, I’ll happily renegotiate it again if you finish ahead of the middle of the pack again. And like I said, a big fat bonus (in addition to his salary/what he already has this year) so his total salary and bonus would be slightly above the 3rd highest paid coach in the league.
I think Yow does get pretty creative on incentives – and she may be doing this. If DD is wanting Dabo or Richt money – he has to realize he asking for more than the market is demanding for his services. But this may be like that Gecko / Sir Larry Wildman negotiation in that Yow is going to have to pay some coin for getting personal (in this case, threatening to fire him.)
Here’s the deal though right now. Evidently, part of the sticking point – at least from what has been released -FWIW – is that he wants more $$ for assistants and guaranteed contracts. This is why I said, “here’s X million to spend on your assistants as YOU see fit” – and you give them the same clause that you give Dave. Which is when you outkick your coverage, (read, finish in top 3rd) – you get paid that year like a Top 3rd coach.
Cow – I seem to recall you setting the UNC-Ch game as a must win last year – very succinctly.
Now, so much of this depends on the relationship. The school can tell him that he was given a chance – where very few P5 schools would be that patient.
It’s very easy for us to say, “Yow was being too rigid/difficult to work for – this is why coaches hate her!” Of course, if he lost that UNC-Ch game – he’s sitting @ 2-6 in the conference, 4-7 overall. His 4 year record is/was even with the win – the worst 4 year conference record for an NC State coach since we have been playing in the ACC (I know it was worst since Earle Edwards.)
Now, so much depends on her / Woodson’s approach during this time and negotiations. If there’s true bad blood – it’s probably too late and he’s gone at the first shot. If not, then money can heal all wounds. If I’m Yow – I’m selling that factoid – “Hey, look, here’s our history. I fired the guy before you and he went 15-17 his last four years, you were 9-23. If you think I didn’t WANT to keep you, you’re crazy.”
As part of my good faith offer – his bonus would allow him to match the 3rd best salary in the league…and quite frankly, I’d make that part of the contract if he can finish in the Top half of the conference. I’d give him money to spend on his assistants as he sees fit.
However, DD has proven he can have a winning season when given time. He has not proven he can sustain it. If he does, he’s likely gone.
I want to keep him in the fold badly, but OTOH, if I’m a UT and I see us bringing in this guy – I wonder. However, given the cluster of the search so far, he’s likely to get a Les Robinsoneque/Sidney Lowe type pass ” Don’t hate this guy! At least he took the job!!!”
Finally, losing DD because of a fight with AD over negotiations does NOTHING to enhance Yow’s bad reputation in the coaching community that has been mentioned numerous times (whether legit or not) – and it will absolutely hurt us in the next hire. This is all coming together very badly!
Rye – how did it work out for us when Sendek left? Long term, how did it work out for BC when TOB left? There’s a lot of examples of fans going “Yea! Let him leave!” ending up with egg on their face. Examples of be careful what you wish for…
Rye – did you see us going 6-2 in the conference? I think if you gave me 6-2 before the season started, I would have taken it.
Rye – Chip Kelly falls in the category of no-brainer.
UT, Florida, A&M would have all been very happy with him.
It will be interesting to see where Sumerlin goes. He didn’t stink up the joint entirely at A&M – he was just a game or two away at the time when it counted most.
Cow – nyheim is a great return man and became a great running back in short order.
But this is the NFL we are talking about here and in the words of Bill Parcell the most important ability is availability. Nyheim was ultimately unavailable for our 2 most important games.
It may not have been his call – but you can be darn sure the scouts noticed. He may need to come back next year just to get his due.
Me, I think he is awesome. He’s obviously pretty sharp – he has played multiple positions. He’s obviously tough – he gave it a go vs Clemson. He didn’t nalinger after Wake. But, he played 2 cold weather games this year and got hurt in both. Number crunchers will notice that stuff.
Yea – we have a few guys who I’m concerned about…
Finley
Hines
Roseboro
RichardsonThose are the obvious ones. I think the easiest “I need to go ASAP” is Richardson. Next of those is Hines – although I think he can improve his stock significantly if he can make through an entire year healthy. His choice is most difficult though because if he gets injured next year, he’ll be labeled as fragile.
You know I find it funny that many of you think I shouldn’t offer a differing opinion because I don’t have millions of dollars to throw at it from a donation stand point. You are entitled to look at the program as you see it just as I am. State has gotten plenty of my money over the years, but more than that it has gotten an awful a lot of emotion of ups and downs etc. We continue to repeat the same mistakes and wonder why stay in the same place. We have a good record which is what you point to as your basis for how well we are doing from a program stand point. I point to the fact that we continue to struggle against winning teams, with 20 seniors on the team. We will undoubtedly struggle next year especially if Finley leaves. We will make excuses for DD because we are young and inexperienced. We will struggle the year after and continue to make excuses for DD.
I welcome your opinion and I don’t necessarily agree with the “donate a million dollars” to rightfully complain about it.
I do think it’s fair to drill down as to what you think constitutes a good season and acceptable results – and then compare them with NC State’s history.
Let’s face it – NC State has to kind of be like the Oakland A’s in Moneyball. We don’t have the same advantages as Clemson, FSU, Miami, Virginia Tech, Virginia, UNC or Georgia Tech. All things being equal in the current ACC – and we should probably finish around 10th place if every other team maximizes their potential advantages.
Luckily, that rarely happens. Going back to the Moneyball analogy – we have to be better at both identifying and developing undervalued assets – both in searching for players and coaches. Dave Doeren has shown a pretty good ability to identify those hidden gems from a player perspective – and he’s done a good job of securing decent coaches. The mere fact that we considered by many a talented team going into the season is de facto proof since our guys were largely undervalued.
The one thing I didn’t like about DD when he was hired was that he hadn’t built anything. He inherited a great situation at NIU and moved the ball far enough forward to be considered a hot coaching commodity. At State, he’s had to build from the ground up. He’s had to get guys to buy in after huge disappointment. He’s had to mold a mixture of high-ranked talent and lower ranked talent into starts. He’s had to go up against two of the most talented football programs in the country year in and year ot.
He’s had to deal with be the “second school” here in Raleigh. All available evidence indicates that he got his guys to buy into to what he was selling – at least in the off season and in most cases, heading into the game. During the game, there’s more uncertaintity than I’d like to see.
But hey, we’ve got to closer to perfect than the other guys. This also means we have to be more patient. Many of the schools mentioned above can have a staff that isn’t great at identifying undervalued assets because they have more advantages than we do. When they screw up, they can fix it easier and faster. OTOH, we’re on our 4th coach in 20 years – and none of these coaches has had a better conference than DD just had – and none of them did better than he just did with their own talent. To me, it’s the height of recklessness to let this guy go because of performance issues unless you’re 95% confident you’ve got a guy who can do this.
This doesn’t mean that DD is out of the woods either. He still has at least 2 other seasons where his teams performance hasn’t been acceptable given reasonable expectations. I’m not expecting a repeat of 2017 in 2018. I am hoping and I think it’s possible that we go at least 4-4 and are pointing 2019 or 2020 as our next great shot at a title.
I’ve always said just give us an extra solid season every 3 or 4 years. I can tolerate a couple of bad to mediocre seasons, if I believe that sunnier days are coming. If you’ve followed recruiting this year, you’ll realize that the incoming class thus far is probably the best he’s put together in his tenure. If this year is a taste of what his next 4 years will be like (and let’s face it, this is a huge deviation from years 1-4 – going from 1-7, 3-5, 3-5, and 3-5 to 6-2 is a pretty big jump) – I think they Wolfpack nation will be playing our most meaningful football since the Lou Holtz/Bo Rein era.
What regressed this year was the defense vs the run. The Notre Dam, Clemson and BC games were 3 games where are rushing defense was not as effective as it was last year.
In only one of our 4 losses was Hines completely available and relatively healthy.
(Let’s point out here that was really impressive for Hines was how he grew as a runner from the beginning of the year.
It’s also worthy of note that when the coaches knew he wouldn’t be relied upon for his usual role (Clemson) – the staff did a great job gameplanning. This reinforces my theory that our guys can prep pretty well but have a hard time adjusting real time. (Of course, as Clemson showed – you lose a key guy and things can go south in a hurry.)
Yep. Tennessee football is kind of like NC Basketball.
The media doesn’t feel they have a right to expect big time hires and their athletic department reaks of incompetence. Btw – does anyone think that if Schiano finished on a clear upswing at Rutgers these protests would be taking place? Please, this was selective morality being leveraged to eliminate an unpopular candidate.
Stinks for the volunteers, but they probably need to find a diamond in the rough.
Tractor – true. It’s not really fair to say “next year or else.” The big question is whether we have a UNC type season this year (1-7 in conference) after this exodus – which could also include several talented juniors or will we be able to do a 4-4 or 5-3 record? There will be weaknesses – but the key is building effectiveness in the trenches. I do think that this staff has done that thus far.
Jim Grobe, Mack Brown. George O’Leary didn’t exactly set the world on fire.
But I suspected you would pull something like this. The sample size of coaches who struggled in their first 4 years at a P5 school, then tied the best conference record for schools is very slim.
Heck, I could throw in Cutcliffe as well – and you can make the case it’s better to be patient than otherwise.
However, every situation is different. Personally, I see enough similarities in DD and Beamer to think it’s worth a gamble. Also, keep in mind, none of our 3 coaches had their best year in the 5th year.
Pack1997 – now that’s a good question. I will take a different approach and use a team without tradition.
Of course the example folks always point to is Virginia tech – which is a good comparison for us.
How can anyone be happy with the outcome of this season? We stunk against teams with winning records. Our record is only good because the league was terrible this year, not because we were any better. I am tired of the same old crap. Surprised all of you are happy with being mediocre.
Perspective?
Look, when I am at the game or watching the game it hurts. When we lose.
However, most of us realize that we ain’t Alabama or Clemson or anyone with a fantastic tradition.
The reason our program is not respected on a national level isn’t because we went 6-2 this year or in 1994 (when we did it last before this year) it’s because we didn’t sustain it.
You’ve got to understand that it’s almost unheard of that a team like NC State emerges and becomes a Top 10 power overnight. When these transformations do happen it’s usually a gradual process.
Basspacker – regardless of how distracting it is, our team won. Game it could have lost, unlike Miami.
Overall, 6-2 conference record, 8-4 total is a solid regular season. The 6-2 record is the conference record for the pack since 1994. In a lot of other years, that would have punched our ticket to the ACC championship game.
The record represented the third best in the conference (out of 14 teams.) I would say the team met reasonable expectations. That’s not to say that met their own or that they overachieved. However, I am hoping it represents a turning point for Wolfpack football under current leadership.
Yep. Agreed Pack78.
And yes, close but no cigar this year. Like I said in an earlier thread – the good news is that there has been no Louisville meltdown this year. We can get there, Saturday is huge for a ton of reasons. But 6-2 while another is 1-7 is just another.
Hmm. I think that’s a little harsh.
People generally don’t have good memories. I remember when Sendek was coach at NC State. After his 5th year, the majority of folks said he’d never go to the NCAA tourney – then he went to 5 straight.
Doeren can build a program. He’s taken his current bunch and has them on the cusp of a 6-2 conference record. If we win, it will be our best conference record since 1994. If we don’t, it’s only the 4th time since 1994 that we’ve gone 5-3 in conference.
He clearly has some opportunity for growth. However, I’d rather have a guy who excels what he excels – methodical building of individuals and preparation for the opponent and season – than a fantastic game coach who is weak in those areas (and usually, there’s a tradeoff.)
Here’s some perspective – in 2011, the Clemson Tigers came into Raleigh 9-1 overall – and 6-1 in the conference. A 2-4 NC State beat them 37-13. We didn’t get embarrassed like that Saturday, our play makers just didn’t make the plays. I have put some blame on the coaching in the past. However, last Saturday wasn’t on them. When your best players don’t make the plays, and your opponents best players do, you typically lose, especially on the road and especially if evenly matched.
