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The two point guards are generally not overly bad at FT’s but stunk that night. Lee and Turner shoot the highest percentage on the team for the year. Why the hell wasn’t the ball in their hands? Why was TJ taking 3 pointers? That is not his game. The team did not even need him to score at that point. They were up by 8 with 1:31 to go. Play 4 corners for Pete’s sake. Vandy should not have been on the floor. He is a liability in that situation. All they needed was someone to know to keep it the hands of the guys who can hit while standing still. Coaches in this league used to know that! Can anyone say WTF? It’s called strategery.
“Yeah, I get they impression Gott is not a detail person rich is not necessarily a problem if you know and surround yourself with people who are”
Agreed Rick. The assistants should be doing the driving with Gott navigating. We are obviously missing one piece there.
I would like to emphasize one point here that I made a bunch of posts ago. My beef is not about this one game. That would be very shortsighted. My beef is that for NCSU to ever win an ACC championship again, much less a national title, you have to get better at these things. This game was a microcosm of a larger set of inconsistencies. If you are constantly in the play in game or on the bubble, you are not going to reach the next level. Gott is 3 years in and TJ is probably not coming back. What will your excuse be for him next year? How many years in a row do you use the young team excuse for him?
It is the job of the coaching staff to work on players free throw shooting, handling the press, etc. I may take heat for this but, Valvano was a master of getting his people ready in late season. He did not show up to coach until tournament time. You would see some great improvement when he decided to coach.
It was no accident that a few years ago, State shot 80% of free throws as a team. Up until recently, State was over 70% average each year. If you get fouled and don’t make free throws and don’t rebound the miss it is just like not having a possession. This is a huge part of the game.
Tau, maybe the NCAA should just be like 2nd grade now and give everyone a medal for participating and not keep score. No, you are not going to become a master of defeating the press in mid season but, if you do not work on it you will not get any better at all. It was grossly plain to see that they were totally unprepared to handle a press. This should have been drilled in at the beginning of the season and then you would only need a refresher course.
If the coaching staff recognizes a weakness or in the case of the UNX game has one exposed for all the world to see, you have to find a way to address it. Because as Rick said, you are going to face those things particularly after someone sees on national television that it is a weakness for you.
Two more things. (1)I think you give too much credit/weight to Kenpom. IMO, a senior in a stable program (same coaching staff) will probably experience little improvement his final year. The coaching staff should have long ago taught him everything they could. After that it is up to the individual to put in extra work. A freshman on the other hand gains valuable game experience and improves vastly or rides the pine. (2) SL lost to the bottom feeding Bonnies in the first round of their conference tournament. They has lost 4 of 5 to end the season. They barely eked out the lone victory during that stretch against Umass. This was not a powerhouse team exuding a great amount of confidence!
The fact that there were 5 close losses this season (OT or less than 4 points in regulation) says that Gott and staff have the talent and are on the right track. But, it’s the little things that make a difference. Attention to those things are what make great teams and add up to long term success. Gott can recruit all of the top notch talent he can grab from the likes of Duke, UNX and Kentucky but, if he does not prepare them for success, he will always finish in the middle of the Pack.
Also, I don’t think Duke’s loss makes State’s loss last night any easier to take for Wolfpack fans. Duke will simply re-load next season, but what in the world will State have next season? After what I saw last night, I wish the entire State team AND coaching staff would not be back next season. I’ve followed State basketball since the late 1950s and this one ranks up there with the worst loss ever in terms of defining a program and its direction. This ship ain’t coming in because it ain’t gonna sail.
Wow, my post on the game thread was not nearly as inflammatory as that and you’d have thought I did something illegal. I am not sure we have to totally start over after that debacle, but the team sure needs to some soul searching.
I assume you are talking about regulation. Looking at the play by play, over the last 5:03 of regulation, State was outrebounded 13-6. But that doesn’t have much to do with rebounding fundamentals. State missed 7 live ball free throws during that stretch, which accounts for the entire difference.
You are correct about the actual number, thank you for correcting me but, you miss something in your analysis. During that stretch, excluding missed FT rebounds, State did indeed get 3 rebounds to 3 rebounds for SL. Where your analysis lacks is that 2 of SL’s rebounds were offensive during that stretch. Both resulting in scores for SL. There were not many live ball rebounds to be had of NCSU shots during most of that stretch because not many shots were being taken. So, my point still stands. It’s the little things like blocking out that make a difference. No charge, you’re welcome!
Regarding the Kenpom analysis, is that for the beginning of the season? If so, does it remain the same at the end of the season?
Probably BJD, but I seem to recall that State couldn’t play for the ’73 championship for recruiting violations. So, don’t get me wrong here but, we don’t have a lot of high ground to stand on. I bet you could find a lot of old timers that would say Everett Case had an unfair advantage also.
Besides, UNX cheats (and gets by with it) as much as anyone ever has and they have not been that successful.
I wonder if Gottfried got his heart stuck in his throat, when these mistakes you see emerged. I for one had a hard timing watching once the free throw bricks started. Herb had moments like that, frozen on the sidelines, hoping the players can right the ship. Something definitely changed and it pervaded the entire team. I never see WBS travel like that in the backcourt. They just got overwhelmed by the moment, and…regressed for those moments.
Jeremy, I missed your post at first. I apologize to everyone for blowing up the message board with long posts but, I had to defend my basket. I am going to post one more thing I had written but decided to skip previously…
I have one more thing I have to say on fundamentals. I will preface this by acknowledging that there have been major changes in the game over the last 40 years. I know that John Wooden’s teams were stacked with talent from a different era of recruiting and rules.
When UCLA was so successful, Wooden had a reputation for discipline and consistency. The first day a new recruit started practice, he was re-taught how to tie his shoes. Sounds stupid right? It was said that you could take a player from any of his teams that put them on another without any loss of consistency. Little things like that make a difference. You can’t argue with 10 championships in 11 years.
Last night’s game illustrated why it is so important to do well in the regular season. That’s why I get so PO’d about the ref situation. When we have games literally stolen from us, it puts our team in an awful position. If you don’t fight for our team about that injustice, I don’t want to hear crap from you in the post season.
I am sorry if you misunderstood me about the refs but, you did. I will be the first one to call out the refs. There is no way you would possibly win a race against me on that point. Ask anyone who knows me. I know a former ref and we have had some spirited discussions about officiating in this conference. If even half of his stories are true, it would make the ACC look really bad. My point was that on Thursday night we (meaning the fans) did not have them to blame. Unless someone saw a bunch of no calls I missed. State had plenty of trips to the line. If the team deserved more then I apologize.
If you just read a tiny bit between the lines in my post, I was making the exact point that you did about post-season placement. I only came at it from a different direction and maybe it was more clear in my second post. If you make your free throws and do other little things like defend, you win more games. That gives you better seeding and you don’t have to play in a play-in game (twice). Are you old enough to recall the term Les Robinson Invitational?
I was worried about exhaustion setting in because of the schedule. But, isn’t that the job of the coach to see that coming? To ask the players, to see the signs, to substitute when you have a 16 point lead are are playing your 2nd game in 3 days?
The team missed free throws all year long, not just at the end of Thursday’s game. Look at the percentages. The only truly successful teams Sendek had shot lights out from 15 feet. You have to coach the importance of that.
“i feel a sharks/jets showdown coming on…factions are breaking out.”
I’m not looking to pick a fight. Just venting. But, to digress a little, this is just like a business. The tiniest of details matter. Take care of those and the big things (W’s in this case) will follow.
Does anyone disagree with me that wins and losses are both normally caused by either coaching or execution? If you agree with that statement, which one was the culprit here? Then ask yourself this, is execution the end result of coaching or is it just luck?
I did not say I was calling for a coaching change, if that is what anyone inferred from my post. Please trust me that after all these years I am appreciative of what Gott and staff have done. The teams he has put on the floor are a lot more exciting than what we have seen out of the last 3 coaches. He does so many more things right than LR/HS/SL. His recruiting is as good as you could possibly expect.
However, I stand by what I said about fundamentals and coaching. Doing the little things that make a big difference. I don’t think players are robots who go out and are expected to put up perfect numbers. I know that the coaches can only instruct them and hope for the best. But, coaching makes a difference when you are tired. Not to get off track but, IMO Duke lost to Mercer because K does not coach the same brand of bball he did a few years ago. Mercer is a well coached team that used experience to defeat them.
Don’t you coach breaking the press? At the 8:23 mark the game was in hand. Over the next 3 minutes there were 2 turnovers and a missed 3 pointer. Sandwich 2 layups around a bunch of missed free throws and zero shot attempts from the floor over the next couple of minutes. Over the last few minutes State was out-rebounded 5 to 14. Little things add up over the course of a game and a season. The talent level of these teams is not that different. It normally comes down to match-ups and execution. State was “outscored” by 2.8 points per minute over the last 5:03 of regulation. SL was allowed to score 29 over the last 5 minutes of regulation. That is the same amount they scored in the first 25 minutes. Take a moment to let that sink in. That is a huge fact you cannot ignore.
You can use ESPN (cough) to look at the last 10 years season stats. While I do not believe that State was a better coached team overall at any time during the previous 7 years than the last 3, look at free throw shooting percentage. State has averaged just over 700 FTA’s per season over that time. It is amazing how consistent the number is. What is also glaring is that the percentage made has dropped precipitously over the last several years. These little things make a difference. NCCU made 41 out of 45 FT’s to beat State earlier this year. They took advantage of what was given to them.
“Again, this is complete and total BS. Not only that, it is one of the worst insults that can be said about a team. State didn’t give up in this game and does not do so “regularly.”
First thank you for the personal attack on my opinion. Maybe I was a little harsh about the heart comment but, I believe it’s fair to say that State has lost more games where they had a double digit lead than the reverse over recent history. I am taking a long term view even though that spans several coaches. Take the collapse against Duke a couple of years ago. It was precipitated by a really bad call and followed by a bunch of really bad no calls. But, at some point it got into the players heads that they could fail and they lost an 18 point lead and lost by around 8-10 points if my memory is correct. Or how about the Florida International game during Sendek’s time. There are more but, you get the point.
“You have a short memory if this was your biggest disappointment in the past 40 years of State athletics”.
Again, my disappointment was not over the fact that this was a “L” versus any other disappointment during that span. That would be a short term view. IMO, this “L” was way more preventable than most and that is why I vented. I appreciate it when the people who represent this school go out and give it their all wins/losses notwithstanding. Valvano lost his share but, they were always entertaining. Sometimes somebody else is just better. Sometimes there are blown calls at the end of a game on the sideline where a mugging by someone wearing blue takes place. My disappointment was over the complete collapse of mental focus that caused this. Maybe it’s too much to expect the killer instinct to be instilled in a young team but, when someone spots you 16 over a span of 32 minutes and then takes it back during 8 shouldn’t you look for the root cause? Am I not allowed to ask the question? I don’t believe that St. Louis was better but, they never lost their focus or gave up on themselves even with what would seem an insurmountable lead.
I have been a State fan for nearly 40 years. I have never been as disappointed as I was last night, and that covers a lot of disappointment. It’s not any one thing, any one of which could have produced a winning result. It’s everything that would produce more consistent winning results.
Last night was all about coaching. Offensive talent is easy to come by. State can put the numbers up. Defense must be taught. Players out of position, not rotating, not sticking with their man, leaving the only person on the court hurting you wide open for 3’s. St. Louis never gave up, which is something State does regularly. If you are willing to accept less than your expectations, you will always get what you accept not what you expect.
Free throws! Enough said. State cannot even begin to blame the refs for last night. I see 5 more wins this season including last night if you just make 1 or 2 more free throws a game. Given the team’s dismal 65.7% effort for the season how many points were left on the table? An increase of 10% to what State averaged prior to the last 2 coaches would produce about 90 points per season assuming a few of the misses were the front end of a 1/1. That extra 3 points a game wins 5 games straight up. Little things add up to big things.
Intangibles. Moving without the ball. Blocking out and rebounding position. Helping your teammates handle the press. Not dribbling the ball off your own foot. HEART! NCSU has not had that for years in either of the revenue sports. When do we get a coach who understands and coaches fundamentals? It’s not like we have a bunch of 1 and done players that you don’t have time to work with. We mostly lose players because they don’t see a path to success at State. Winners win and losers go home to think about what could have been.
I am thoroughly disgusted.
