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Football is an incomplete. You can’t give Doeren extra credit for “doing it with low-rated recruiting classes” because recruiting is part of the job description.
BJD95,
This is a long answer to what recruiting is like near the top. Recruiting is a BFD in the P-5 programs and those successful programs aren’t built overnight.Recruiting is part of the job description but being able to perform miracles on the recruiting trail and produce top 25 recruiting classes is NOT a part of the job description. Not right away at least. We are getting “better” ranked classes and sometimes we have to sacrifice “ranking” for needs.
There are two ways to recruit. Starting from where NC State started, getting all D-1 ready recruits may not be a feasible way to go. The other way is to recruit 2 and 3-star recruits with good frames, good attitudes and good aptitudes and “grow our own.” We can get some of the former now but not enough. We have to have some of the latter. As long as this is the case we will not have highly ranked classes.
I understand that class ranking is the way fans evaluate how recruiting is going, but there are other factors that determine how a program is doing with recruiting. Football recruiting is not a one year function. Assistant coaches start building relationships with recruits one to two years before their senior year in HS.
Most of us seem to think it’s the assistant coaches and the HC going out and talking to a handful of 4 & 5-star recruits and “talking them into coming to NC State” instead of Clemson, FSU, Tenn, SC, UNC, VT, UGA, GT, the U, plus MD, PState, and other BIG teams and SEC teams that these recruits have established relatonships with. Because of some of our coaches connections we are able to occasionnally grab a prized recruit.
Doeren knows what it takes in terms of staff and facilities and is putting staff and facilities in place. Yow knew this when she referred to DD as a “good recruiter.” And she is backing him with the funds for that staff and those facilities. A lot is in place now and there is more to come.
We have a large contingent of 2018 and a few 2019 recruits coming in the weekend. The planning, managing, making arrangements to feed and house the large number of recruits, escorting them around, pairing them up with host players, scheduling face time with the coaches, etc., etc., etc. takes staff and contact people and a whole crap load of communication, confirmation and follow up. This is the hidden underbelly of recruiting. Successful football recruiting is 10 percent evaluation, 90 percent perspiration.
We’ve renovated the locker room at Murphy Center to make us more attractive to recruits. The IPF, if the truth be told, while used a lot is a recruiting tool. That hi-tech video facility that Debbie mentioned will be staffed partly by a video director and assistants who work exclusively for DD for producing videos to be used for recruiting. Imagine that. Video being more impressive than a mailing.
When DD got here he was from 1.5 to 2 years behind in the recruiting process. It cost another 1.5 to 2 years scrambling to catch up. NC State is just now getting caught up.
The talent level of the football program when DD took over was arguably the worst in the ACC and Glennon’s 18 man Sr class was exiting the program. Top this off with the fact that TOB didn’t recruit well at all his last 2 years. (If you don’t want to take my word for it, go pull up those classes and take look.) IOW the cupboard was bare, very bare when Doeren got here.
Some people like saying TOB had a 4-4 record in 2012 so Doeren should have won games in 2013. Given the background stated above that makes no sense. And that doesn’t include the QB situation he had to deal with — a converted WR beating out a transfer who wasn’t good enough to start at Colorado State. If that wasn’t bad enough, his WR convert QB was injured in the first game and had to use the “cupcake season” to rehab. When he returned we were into the conference schedule and by then 0-8 was a better bet than 2-6.
So how is Doeren doing recruiting? At this time we aren’t able to compete with the already established programs for quality, football ready linemen. As I said before we are recruiting quality, football ready recruits where we can, but to supplement quality, football ready recruits, we recruit boys who can grow into their bodies — meaning tall with big frames and length and “good feet.” Doeren may be sacrificing Class rankings for needs at times. A red shirt year plus the R-Fr year and the S & C staff has “home made” 4-star recruits and depth.
You can call all this excuses or you can see it as the reality of big-time college football recruiting. It would be foolish to think a coach is coming in and suddenly start having top 25 recruiting classes in football.
Doeren is building the structure to start regularly attracting top classes. Our friends over on the hill had the benefit of Butch Davis knowing what it takes and the deep pockets to provide whatever they needed. Fraudora inherited it. For years I wondered how the heck could EweNC out recruit us like they do. They have long-standing relationships with HS recruits and those recruits trust the holes and believe what they tell them. That is changing.
Bottom line? The structure is being put in place and the pipelines will be filled in the near future. Mean time we must have a few winning seasons starting in 2017.
I can’t argue with that. Fully agree the cupboard was bare, and had no issues with the winless ACC season as a result.
I did expect the rankings to have progressed a little better by now, but those are inexact, and if results follow on the field the next few years it will be water under the bridge.
I did expect the rankings to have progressed a little better by now, but those are inexact, and if results follow on the field the next few years it will be water under the bridge.
We caught a break a few years ago when that gaggle of recruits at the Shrine bowl — Roseboro, McGirt, Hines, Gallaspy, and Frasier all came here. Even Sly Tuttle was flashing the Wolf sign in a photo with our guys. I thought we were on our way big time. ‘Twas not to be.
I don’t care about recruiting ranking as a stand alone measure of success. I prefer to see improvement on the field and hopefully more wins. I have seen the former and not so much the latter but all in all I’m ok with staying the course. Amato had some great wins but he also had some real off the field issues. TOB helped with the off the field issues but lost on the field. With Coach D I’m waiting to see what happens. I like the guy, I know there are weaknesses but the can be improved with experience at this level.
We’ve renovated the locker room at Murphy Center to make us more attractive to recruits.
I meant to put this in my “recruiting” rant: Doeren has dietitians on his staff to plan meals and feed the team, providing the proper nutrition to meet their joint goals of gaining good weight or conversely converting bad weight to muscle. S&C coaches design work outs that help each athlete achieve the goals the athletes set.
The S&C staff keeps before and after photos of current players to show recruits what they can do so the recruits know they aren’t making body transformation promises they can’t keep.
The S&C facilities (weight room to us older folk) have been up graded and a major up-grade to the medical facilities (training room) is in the works also.
The only place we will lag behind is housing for football’s equivalent of the “basketball dorm.”
Greywolf I get that you are passionate about DD but the reality, and it is the reality is that this is the year for DD. This is it. He simply must have a stellar season or he is done. All the goodwill, all the things you listed above only go so far when you are only winning 3 games in the ACC.
Agreed. Even though I am generally sympathetic because I think this is the best way to build a winner here. But you have to show results within a reasonable period of time, or recruits stop buying what you’re selling, and the bottom drops out.
Greywolf I get that you are passionate about DD but the reality, and it is the reality is that this is the year for DD. This is it. He simply must have a stellar season or he is done. All the goodwill, all the things you listed above only go so far when you are only winning 3 games in the ACC.
Actually, you don’t get it. I’m not passionate about DD, I’m passionate about Wolfpack football. I’m excited by what I see and hear about what Doeren is doing to build a sustainable football program. By sustainable I mean solid defensive lines, strong offensive lines and is striving for a balanced offense. I very much like that he is NOT a smoke and mirrors offensive genius. IOW I like that he is a good mixture of old school and modern football without having to rely on winning 59-47.
My real excitement for Wolfpack football began with Earle Edwards when I was in HS and has continued with every coach we’ve had since. I have been disappointed quite a few times but so what. I was very excited when Amato came back to coach here but that cooled when he had some recruits sign LOIs and then couldn’t get in school because of academics. And some couldn’t stay in school.
You may try to discount what you see as passion for DD, but it’s passion for North Carolina State University in general and for Wolfpack football in particular. The excitement comes from what I see that is going on to build a program that has the parts and pieces in place to compete with anybody on a national scale — something we’ve never had here before.
You mentioned goodwill but goodwill means nothing to me as far as DD is concerned. Your mentioning goodwill does tell me that you skimmed through or failed to read what I wrote. I said nothing about goodwill but spoke of what is being done to insure we can attract high quality recruits. Facilities, amenities within the facilities, staff and coaches are all being up-graded to compete with the best. The scale may be smaller but the quality will be equal.
So Mr. wolfpack92owen, this may be the year for DD. I expect it is and given what I saw last year, what we have coming back, and who we have moving up from being red shirted, I’m confident that NC State football will excel in 2017. I do question your knowledge of the underlying reasons we will excel. You strike me as someone who can see the W/L record and little else.
I wouldn’t waste any more time trying to convince me that you have vast wisdom about what will happen in the future with regard to DD. So far you have fallen far short of doing that. Nobody but a damn fool thinks Doeren’s record in the ACC is a function of anything other than what he was left with by TOB.
^ no matter what you just said above if DD goes 3-5 next year in conference (as I suspect he will) he is going to get fired. Period.
^ no matter what you just said above if DD goes 3-5 next year in conference (as I suspect he will) he is going to get fired. Period.
Which person of authority did you get this from, Debbie or Dr. Woodson? And if you think Debbie Yow is taking orders from a big donor, you don’t know her.
And when DD gets fired who in your crystal ball do you see us hiring to replace him?
Hopefully Grey’s predictions for next year are not accurate than his predictions for this year. I think it i accurate to day we would all love to see dd live up to Grey’s billing.
I think Deb is the bomb.
State is kicking a$$ in swimming, badminton, curling, women’s anything, and horse shoes.
She can stay as long as she wants purely out of the fear she strikes into the hearts of non revenue athletes everywhere.
McCallum
^ no matter what you just said above if DD goes 3-5 next year in conference (as I suspect he will) he is going to get fired. Period.
Debbie Yow will not provide a knee jerk reaction to wins and losses this soon. she is too intelligent to follow this scenario.
she is smart enough to make an educated projection on the future of the team based on other situations/facts other than only wins and losses. Mark Gottfreid was not fired due to wins and losses only. he was fired for off the court issues and her assessment of the future outlook of the program under his direction.If we get blown out 5 times and snag 3 lucky wins and players are leaving the team in droves (ex Caleb & Cody Martin) and there are problems behind doors, like Amato had where assistants were leaving regularly for lower level positions just to get away, then he could be let go after a 3-5 season. I dont see this happening.
But if we go 3-5 or even 2 -6 and she sees progress and a stable environment, he will still be here.
we would not want an AD that would make a decision like you are suggesting.
like her or not, she knows what she is doing, and us fans need to let her do her job the right way.McCallum, have you been drinking too much peach citrus Fresca?
There is no such thing but when I’m thirsty and sarcastic that is my drink of choice.
McCallum
^ no matter what you just said above if DD goes 3-5 next year in conference (as I suspect he will) he is going to get fired. Period.
Debbie Yow will not provide a knee jerk reaction to wins and losses this soon. she is too intelligent to follow this scenario.
she is smart enough to make an educated projection on the future of the team based on other situations/facts other than only wins and losses. Mark Gottfreid was not fired due to wins and losses only. he was fired for off the court issues and her assessment of the future outlook of the program under his direction.If we get blown out 5 times and snag 3 lucky wins and players are leaving the team in droves (ex Caleb & Cody Martin) and there are problems behind doors, like Amato had where assistants were leaving regularly for lower level positions just to get away, then he could be let go after a 3-5 season. I dont see this happening.
But if we go 3-5 or even 2 -6 and she sees progress and a stable environment, he will still be here.
we would not want an AD that would make a decision like you are suggesting.
like her or not, she knows what she is doing, and us fans need to let her do her job the right way.You do not want an AD that would fire a football coach after potentially going 11-29, 12-28 (your scenarios) after five years? Do what now?
Dude, I dont care how stable the environment is, how much “progress” you or Yow think there is but if Doeren goes 3-5 in conference this year he is toast. There aint no two ways about it. This is his year. Add in to the declining recruiting and he is a dead man walking with that record.
North Korean is pretty stable and they are all about some “progress”.
How many “glorious” new tractor factories does a man need when willow bark soup in on the menu at most homes?
McCallum
You can call all this excuses or you can see it as the reality of big-time college football recruiting. It would be foolish to think a coach is coming in and suddenly start having top 25 recruiting classes in football.
I dare you to say that to Chuck Amato’s face.
Greywolf, I have to ask, are you DD’s agent?
We may not fire Doeren regardless next season because of how much scrilla we has to give Arch. WE ARE a basketball school, after all.
Other than that scenario, his ass better produce TANGIBLY next season. I believe he can, but it’s time to see it. Shouldn’t have shat on his stockholders after going 6-6 last year. Doesn’t build much goodwill.
Doeren WILL be coaching NC State as long as Yow is at NC State. The new AD may fire him in 2019, but she will not.
She promised to cover for him if he came here.Doeren WILL be coaching NC State as long as Yow is at NC State. The new AD may fire him in 2019, but she will not.
She promised to cover for him if he came here.holy lollers batman you are delusional
We may not fire Doeren regardless next season because of how much scrilla we has to give Arch. WE ARE a basketball school, after all.
Other than that scenario, his ass better produce TANGIBLY next season. I believe he can, but it’s time to see it. Shouldn’t have shat on his stockholders after going 6-6 last year. Doesn’t build much goodwill.
When football pays the bulk of the bills you can bet your a$$ the PTB are monitoring this situation closely. another 3-5, 6-6 type season and the program is at its lowest point since the MOC years. I get all the Progress, hard worker, good guy, hands in the dirt, recruits good kids etc, talk but in year 5 its time to show the goods. And with the same kicker on the roster I am leaning towards DD being a dead man walking. If KB is your only option then you have to game plan around that and it never seems to work out in your teams favor in football.
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