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I could gin together that made SL look like a competent coach just as easily as I could put some together that make this one look bad. It can be done. People will do it.
I disagree. One cannot make an intellectually honest argument that makes SL look like a competent head coach during his tenure at our program, as much as I appreciate him for his time as a player and for his passion for the program and university.
I would argue that there are some important metrics other than just wins and losses and graduation rates. This is big business and it is an entertainment business. Ticket sales, attendance, gate revenue, brand evalution (which we dipped hard in this year), games on TV, TV ratings, apparel sales, etc. are all important and are measures of fan interest. The fans are the customers. These metrics better reflect the state of the fan base than any of the ones you mention.
Well, I have been posting about the job Gott has done, which should presumably be a significant basis for the “state of the fan base.” What I don’t understand are those fan who have a perspective that Gott should have accomplished significantly more (because accomplishing just a little more doesn’t seem to be what anyone complains about).
Sure, if fans have that perspective, i.e., that the program is significantly underachieving under Gott, I agree it would probably be reflected in ticket sales, attendance, gate revenue, televised games, TV ratings, apparel sales, etc. I’d be interested in seeing how the program is performing in all of those areas. Perhaps many of those things have dipped below where one should expect them to be, and I’m just not aware of it. Do you have information that shows that to be true?
The point that I’m trying to make, is when I see this stuff come out, that means we’re in the Clone Wars time. There’s a certain percentage of people who think all is rosy within the fan base. That’s just not true.
To be clear, I don’t think all is “rosy” within the fan base. Anyone who has been reading this thread and has a clue knows that isn’t the case. That’s exactly the point of the discussion we are having.
The bigger point I’m making is that when people trot out some stats and then say that based on the stats they’ve shown, they can’t see how you’d draw any other conclusion, well………………
The stuff you laid out for your SL argument doesn’t hold water, because it neglects obvious counterpoints. It is not an intellectually honest argument.
This quote from you seems to refer back to my post again. Can you cite any obvious counterpoints that I ignored in my post about Gott’s accomplishments? Can you make an argument that I tried to cherry pick or distort facts in my post? Can you make an argument that my post was not intellectually honest?
I don’t think so, but I’m open to considering it.
brand evalution (which we dipped hard in this year)
I’m not sure what you are referencing here. Can you elaborate on what it is you are saying dipped hard this year and why you say it dipped hard?
I am surprised anyone would argue that statistics cannot be skewed to favor an argument. I mean there’s even a saying about lies, damn lies and statistics.
I am surprised anyone would argue that statistics cannot be skewed to favor an argument. I mean there’s even a saying about lies, damn lies and statistics.
Who said that?
I made two points related to this: (1) one cannot make an intellectually honest argument that SL was a competent head coach at State; and (2) I do not believe my post presented any skewed statistics/data. I stand by both statements.
I am surprised anyone would argue that statistics cannot be skewed to favor an argument. I mean there’s even a saying about lies, damn lies and statistics.
Who said that?
I made two points related to this: (1) one cannot make an intellectually honest argument that SL was a competent head coach at State; and (2) I do not believe my post presented any skewed statistics/data. I stand by both statements.
You said it at 11:18 am yesterday and I quote
Also, I disagree that you can pick out any set of stats and back up any argument you want to make, at least not if you are being intellectually honest.
rye did not mention Sid until 11:46 am and I quote
Frankly, I’m taking the high road because I can see both sides. I know where you stand and understand why. I could gin together that made SL look like a competent coach just as easily as I could put some together that make this one look bad. It can be done. People will do it.
ancsu and Tau: I’ve called out the V references and the metrics as examinations of behavior that we saw during the HWSNBN days and what are signs of the start of the Clone Wars.
With respect to V, the ACC regular season in the 1980s and at 2015 are an entirely different thing. As soon as double round robin left us and unbalanced schedules became the norm, .500 in the league means something entirely different. Also, V gets a pass about the regular season because he was so incredibly good during the post season. The man delivered us one of our only 2 titles virtually right off the bat with a magical late season run. After that he was going to get an awful lot of slack about regular season runs because you knew once he got to the tournament, he could make some noise. V also had NC State as a top level brand on the national scene. I wasn’t living in NC during V (actually was firmly in Big East country in the height of the Big East), but I knew all about NC State basketball.
When Gott wins a national (or even ACC) title, then I think you’ll see people similarly put the same level of emphasis on his team’s regular seasons. Until then, it’s going to be important because we need the seed to carry us.
When Gott does anything remotely as significant as V, then we can compare them. Until then, any comparison to me just cheapen’s V’s legacy. We saw people running down V, Case, Sloan, etc. to prop up HWSNBN and it just made me sick. It’s the sign of the wars, and people lowering expectations about the future by attempting to rewrite the past.
With respect to the stats, my issue is the contention that these are the only metrics by which to measure the program that matter. First, those stats tend to leave out how the team performed related to expectations, talent, the state of other teams, tournament draws, etc.. Second, I can go in and pick out any set of stats and back up any argument that I want to make. I won’t do it, because I’m not really interested at this point.
Again, when I see that happening, it’s a sign of the camps. Each camp will trot theirs out as defense of their position.
A few comments:
1. Show me where I ever have run down V or Sloan or their legacy
2. V inherited a pretty good brand and enhanced it; Gott inherited a “ancient brand”
3. Tell me honestly if anyone expected any of their “first REALISTIC prom picks” to have done better that 4 NCAAT and 2 Sweet 16 runs with a veteran strong returning 5-year team.The loss of Lacey does not spell doom just lowers expectations. Expect ions are not an indicator of how next season will play out.
at the very top of your list is the following:
– Certain streaks at certain parts of the year
I will assume you meant that to be serious, but that being your first stat does appear to make your statement that I challenged seem disingenuous and for the purpose of argument alone. Let’s just say your “statistically” based case started very thinly. I have no intentions of going further with this, because I don’t want to be disprepectful to someone such as Lowe who has indeed done a tremendous amount for NC State over the years.
The loss of Lacey does not spell doom just lowers expectations. Expect ions are not an indicator of how next season will play out.
IMO that is one of my problems with Gott. The ever revolving door of players always lowers expectations so then people can pipe up with “they beat expectations”. At some point you really need to win something instead of just “beating expectations”.
You said it at 11:18 am yesterday and I quote
Also, I disagree that you can pick out any set of stats and back up any argument you want to make, at least not if you are being intellectually honest.
So you are disagreeing with this statement? Any set of stats to back up any argument while being intellectually honest?
Tau,
Get proven wrong so change the subject? That is not intellectually honest (to use a phrase you seem enamored with).Tau,
Get proven wrong so change the subject? That is not intellectually honest (to use a phrase you seem enamored with).LMAO. You win, you “proved me wrong” in finding that I actually made another post that I didn’t recall.
I stand by all three points. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to the discussion? Do you care to discuss merits of anything that has been posted rather than semantics?
Tau837:
My point isn’t that Lowe was a good coach. I don’t think he should be the coach here. That’s not the point. It’s that you could produce some stats that would make him look good. I promise you if you go and look at those, you’ll find some that he was actually good at that were core to the job.
As for your value question, go look at the Forbes basketball evaluation for this year. We dropped out of the top 20. We’d spiked up in Gott’s first year.
For attendance, we were 25th this year, with an average of 12k fans. In 2013 we were 12th with an average of 16k fans. We were 20th in 2012 with 13.5k. In 2011, we were 19th with 13.7k. I suspect that 2013 was probably the TJW effect.
Part of the promise was that ticket sales and revenues were going to go up and that season ticket sales would be on the rise which are more full cost tickets. We’ve been dumping tickets every year and still not filling the arena. I don’t have the revenue numbers right here, but have seen them. We do make some serious cash as a program and are in the black. I don’t remember how that is trending.
Tau,
Get proven wrong so change the subject? That is not intellectually honest (to use a phrase you seem enamored with).LMAO. You win, you “proved me wrong” in finding that I actually made another post that I didn’t recall.
I stand by all three points. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to the discussion? Do you care to discuss merits of anything that has been posted rather than semantics?
Was that so hard. I give you kudos for admitting a mistake.
I made the only one I planned on making earlier when I said the following:I am surprised anyone would argue that statistics cannot be skewed to favor an argument. I mean there’s even a saying about lies, damn lies and statistics.
It is a well known fact that statistics can be skewed to support your argument. I think a perfect example is when you were adding “offseasons” when we were arguing transfers to make the rate look lower.
I think the whole transfers thing has been overblown. First, small sample size + contributing factors (new coach, last minute recruiting, etc.).
Outside of that there’s maybe one guy who transferred or left that was a head scratcher.
Sure there are a couple of guys I wish had stayed, Painter, Brown, Lewis, Washington, Lacey…and two of those guys chose to go pro.
It’s not like we’ve got 5 star guys in key positions taking off out of the blue. The only one that comes close to that is Purvis, and he’s getting worse and not better, so is Tyler Harris actually.
Yes the number is high. But using a stat out of context is the embodiment of lies, damn lies, and statistics.
We’d be an entirely different program if the Belgian Waffler had stayed for 4 years.
I bet he drinks Stella. Artois that is…
I made the only one I planned on making earlier when I said the following:
I am surprised anyone would argue that statistics cannot be skewed to favor an argument. I mean there’s even a saying about lies, damn lies and statistics.
It is a well known fact that statistics can be skewed to support your argument. I think a perfect example is when you were adding “offseasons” when we were arguing transfers to make the rate look lower.How ironic that you would suggest that I skewed that previous discussion on offseasons by “adding offseasons.” I agree with you that this previous discussion on transfers and offseasons is a perfect example of skewing facts. Except I was the one who presented facts in that discussion (that we are in Gott’s 5th offseason as head coach), and you were the one who wanted to skew the facts to fit your agenda in making the transfer problem out to be worse than it has been.
It’s not really worth continuing the discussion with you. You have been beating the same drum for years, regardless of whether the facts and context fit or not. Carry on.
As for your value question, go look at the Forbes basketball evaluation for this year. We dropped out of the top 20. We’d spiked up in Gott’s first year.
For attendance, we were 25th this year, with an average of 12k fans. In 2013 we were 12th with an average of 16k fans. We were 20th in 2012 with 13.5k. In 2011, we were 19th with 13.7k. I suspect that 2013 was probably the TJW effect.
Part of the promise was that ticket sales and revenues were going to go up and that season ticket sales would be on the rise which are more full cost tickets. We’ve been dumping tickets every year and still not filling the arena. I don’t have the revenue numbers right here, but have seen them. We do make some serious cash as a program and are in the black. I don’t remember how that is trending.
Good info. I wasn’t aware of these trends. I would be interested to see a more comprehensive treatment of this topic by someone who has access to the various data.
If it were true that all of those various off court metrics that you referenced earlier are trending poorly, I would expect that to be a significant point of concern with Debbie.
Probably takes a while to get people excited after 20 years of mediocrity at best. There’s a whole generation who have never experienced a successful NC State program.
Tau,
I tell you what find where anyone refers to this as Gotts fifth ‘off season’ and I will say you are right. If you cannot I will expect you to once again say I an rightTau,
I tell you what find where anyone refers to this as Gotts fifth ‘off season’ and I will say you are right. If you cannot I will expect you to once again say I an rightI don’t need to search for proof. I can count. YMMV.
Tau,
I tell you what find where anyone refers to this as Gotts fifth ‘off season’ and I will say you are right. If you cannot I will expect you to once again say I an rightI don’t need to search for proof. I can make up crap to fit my agenda. YMMV.
Ftfy
My point isn’t that Lowe was a good coach. I don’t think he should be the coach here. That’s not the point. It’s that you could produce some stats that would make him look good.
I could also easily show you some stats to suggest that he was one of the worst ACC coaches, ever.
Tau,
I tell you what find where anyone refers to this as Gotts fifth ‘off season’ and I will say you are right. If you cannot I will expect you to once again say I an rightI don’t need to search for proof. I can make up crap to fit my agenda. YMMV.
Ftfy
Whatever you say. When I asked you if you had anything constructive to add to the discussion and you didn’t, I already said it’s not worth discussing further with you. You can have the last word if you insist on responding again.
I could also easily show you some stats to suggest that he was one of the worst ACC coaches, ever.
Ummm, Les could probably take that one BUT there are quite a few that were much worse that SL. Closely review Clemson for “stats”.
Rick, you’re supposed to be one of the grownups around here but more and more I see you picking fights like a 15 year old. Everyone has a right to an opinion but you seem to go out of your way to try and prove to everyone that yours is the only one that’s right. And some of it seems darned mean spirited. That gets tiring after a while man.
Smarter than the average bear
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