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The last 24 hours have definitely not been stellar for John Calipari.
Kirk has signed to run with the Pack. Gott > Calipari.
OK Now we need a ball handling guard and a real big man. That would make it solid. But the Pack can run with 8!
Still need some kind of combo guard, but a great pick up. And more than the signing, I think it speaks volumes for our chances of landing Bam and DSJ.
The last 24 hours have definitely not been stellar for John Calipari.
Kirk has signed to run with the Pack. Gott > Calipari.
I bet his coach is heart broken.
I bet his coach is heart broken.
He thought he was getting tickets next to Ashley.
This just IN…
It is being reported by several high and reliable sources that Coach Cal’s “Closing Speech” was the reason that he signed the LOI with NCSU (Gott) today. He alluded to one remark in particular….
“You want Harrow’s (Ryan, formerly of NCSU) Jersey (number), I’ll give you Harrow’s Jersey (number)! He looked GREAT in it….”
Seems like the reality of how some folks have fared (on the bench…not made of pine) at KY and THEY were the one that were promised greatness finally set in.
Good for Shaun. It is a real pity that his soon-to-be former Whiteville BB coach will not get the two ducats next to Ashley Judd.
She may have to defect to Louisville….where the King of the Quickie can take care of her needs. He would gladly supply her tickets….as she would probably not try to blackmail him and spread the word about his “endurance and prowess”
GO PACK….
There are two things that need to be said.
First, Coach Cal (along with the UK program) is a scumbag of the highest order, in my opinion, when he goes after a player who has just made a verbal commitment to another team. It may happen all the time, but I don’t recall such an instance. Isn’t there at least the tiniest amount of honor involved among coaches?
And second, this is NOT about Gott- it’s about NC State. Gott has done better here in his first 4 seasons than the Wolfpack basketball program has done in the past 25 seasons. The lack of any sustained success by this program since the 1980s is making it almost impossible for anyone to succeed here. And without some degree of success, which should start with at least appearing to be an ACC title contender instead of a program just trying to go .500 in the league.
Everyone who reads my posts knows that I place a lot of the blame on John Swofford and ACC officials who keep on stacking the deck against the Big Four teams who don’t wear blue. Not being allowed to play Duke twice every season in basketball has hurt our program and Wake Forest’s, and it makes no sense that ACC officials don’t seem to give a damn about the two red-headed bastards from Raleigh and Winston. Wake Forest is an even bigger loser than we are because they don’t get to play either Duke or UNC basketball regularly but rather are stuck with us as a primary playing partner. And if I’m wrong here, someone will quickly correct me.
I just don’t see things getting any better anytime soon. I’m still optimistic that next year’s team might finish above .500 in the conference and make the NCAAT again, but until some big wolves finally get it and try to move this school into the direction of at least exploring a move to the SEC, ain’t nothin’ gonna change.
The ACC has become a league of haves and have-nots. We’re clearly among the latter. Who will ever speak up for us?
Ryebread wrote “running down former HOF coaches (seen particularly around V to justify some of our poor regular season play)”. As someone who was on campus from 1982 until 1987 and knew Valvano personally, I am consistently amazed as the revisionist history of him and how he approached the regular season. I am one of those who has discussed the regular season play of Valvano versus Gott’s teams. I never was running the coach down (I loved the guy) but rather was pointing out several things:
1. His philosophy was 8-8 in ACC (or better), improve play throughout the season, enter ACCT on a run and go into NCAAT on a hot streak
2. In other words he cared less about winning a regular season title than he did about getting the team together and making a ACCT and NCAAT run
3. He tried out and mixed up lineups throughout the year in attempt to accomplish #2 above.
4. His lineup changes and in-game moves, at the time, puzzled many “experts” myself included and a lot of times they were gut feels by him and/or based on what he saw in practice and talks with the kids.
5. I see a similar style in GottI am not saying Gott is Valvano (I doubt we will ever see the combination of motivator and in-game coach adjustments from anyone better than him including K and others) but I do see a lot of similarity. My comments were never meant to run Valvano down but to remind people that, in the momement, our HOF coach was not considered HOF by all. The same goes for Sloan but to a lesser extent.
During that time I wondered about Valvano’s style and coaching sometimes. I wanted to win a reg season title and shove it up dean’s ass. Yet I never thought he was not the man for the program and after four years was ready to splinter into for/against camps. Gott comes along after a much much much worse transition than Valvano came behind and has shown the passion, drive and loyalty for our history and program all the while running a fairly successful program that, while still being the little brother, is starting to win a few matches with his bigger brothers as he comes into his own.
People can take my opinion and do with it what they may but my opinion is that the man has earned some respect from the fanbase. A lot of what I see written here goes beyond “pointing out concerns” and “making observations” as some try to spin it but rather is disrespectful of the job he has done.
Rick, I stand by those comments. They are a reflection of SOME of the pessimists on this site. I did not make child like comments to offend other posters. I said their disdain or maybe lack of appreciation for Gott’s success/improvement is hard for me to comprehend based on what has transpired in the last four years.
“No, actually you called me “ricky”. I will delete any post in which I am called that. It is “sophmoric” (to use your own term) and is a pet peeve of mine.”
Ah at least we know the rules now. So what is the recourse for “plumber Joe” who is not part of 1% who get to delete that content which offends them but yet can write/offend others at will? Oh wait I know “just don’t read it and move on”.
I did not say that only my view is reasonable and/or realistic. I said that some views are unreasonable and/or unrealistic. I don’t see that as a controversial statement.
You made it in direct response to Va’s post about it not being a great year (see below). I am not sure how else to take that.
Va post:
This is where personal evaluation scales come into play.
Good job?
Absolutely!Great job?
NopeTau post:
And a lot of personal evaluation scales are unrealistic and unreasonable. :shrug:First off, Va responded to my post about the job Gott has done over his entire time at State, not just whether last season being a great year. I took his response as saying Gott has done a good job overall (all four years), not a great job overall.
As I said, I did not say only my view is reasonable/realistic. I said many views (a.k.a. “personal evaluation scales”) are unreasonable/unrealistic. Apparently, you disagree with that. Is it merely a matter of degree? If I said “some” or “a few” instead of “many”, would that have made the difference?
Bottom line, many fans apparently expected more through 4 years than Gott has achieved. Whether or not their expectations were reasonable/realistic or unreasonable/unrealistic depends on how much more they expected. Somewhere between what he has achieved and winning 4 national championships, there is a line where expectations move from reasonable to unreasonable.
IMO the way most of those in the “Gott opposers camp” come across in their posts, their expectations are likely on the unreasonable side of that line. YMMV.
“Tikki Tavi.” Can’t remember the last time something hit me like that, I almost fell out of the chair laughing so hard. No kidding. Hysterical. Thanks for the laugh man!
Smarter than the average bear
Rick, I stand by those comments. They are a reflection of SOME of the pessimists on this site. I did not make child like comments to offend other posters. I said their disdain or maybe lack of appreciation for Gott’s success/improvement is hard for me to comprehend based on what has transpired in the last four years.
You called posters who you disagree with ‘miserable’ and ‘Gott haters’.
If you do not see the hypocrisy in calling people names and then complaining about a similar ‘offense’ them I don’t think we have much left to discuss.Again I did say that SOME are misreble GOTT haters. I don’t deny that but to make a sexist comment that is bullsh*t. If you don’t get that then I can’t help it
ancsu and Tau: I’ve called out the V references and the metrics as examinations of behavior that we saw during the HWSNBN days and what are signs of the start of the Clone Wars.
With respect to V, the ACC regular season in the 1980s and at 2015 are an entirely different thing. As soon as double round robin left us and unbalanced schedules became the norm, .500 in the league means something entirely different. Also, V gets a pass about the regular season because he was so incredibly good during the post season. The man delivered us one of our only 2 titles virtually right off the bat with a magical late season run. After that he was going to get an awful lot of slack about regular season runs because you knew once he got to the tournament, he could make some noise. V also had NC State as a top level brand on the national scene. I wasn’t living in NC during V (actually was firmly in Big East country in the height of the Big East), but I knew all about NC State basketball.
When Gott wins a national (or even ACC) title, then I think you’ll see people similarly put the same level of emphasis on his team’s regular seasons. Until then, it’s going to be important because we need the seed to carry us.
When Gott does anything remotely as significant as V, then we can compare them. Until then, any comparison to me just cheapen’s V’s legacy. We saw people running down V, Case, Sloan, etc. to prop up HWSNBN and it just made me sick. It’s the sign of the wars, and people lowering expectations about the future by attempting to rewrite the past.
With respect to the stats, my issue is the contention that these are the only metrics by which to measure the program that matter. First, those stats tend to leave out how the team performed related to expectations, talent, the state of other teams, tournament draws, etc.. Second, I can go in and pick out any set of stats and back up any argument that I want to make. I won’t do it, because I’m not really interested at this point.
Again, when I see that happening, it’s a sign of the camps. Each camp will trot theirs out as defense of their position.
ancsu and Tau: I’ve called out the V references and the metrics as examinations of behavior that we saw during the HWSNBN days and what are signs of the start of the Clone Wars.
For some reason, you opened your post by addressing me, then proceeded to talk about comparisons to V and other past coaches for most of your post. I haven’t posted anything about such comparisons, so I assume you were directing all of that stuff to others.
With respect to the stats, my issue is the contention that these are the only metrics by which to measure the program that matter.
So here is where I guess you are addressing me. Reaction:
1. Can you point out where I said the info I posted is the only info (metrics) by which to measure the program? I’m pretty sure you can’t, because I said no such thing.
2. You mention ‘stats’. I posted wins and losses for overall seasons, vs. ACC opponents, and for postseason. Surely you aren’t suggesting that wins and losses are a bad way to judge the performance of the head coach. So I don’t see why you would take issue with that data being applicable. I certainly didn’t twist or cherry pick that information.
3. I also posted RPI and SOS and referenced big wins and bad losses (based on opponent RPI). This sort of data is commonly used at SFN throughout each season and is obviously used by others (media, NCAA committee) to judge the success (or lack thereof) of the program in a given year. So, again, I don’t see why you would take issue with that data being applicable. I certainly didn’t twist or cherry pick that information.
First, those stats tend to leave out how the team performed related to expectations, talent, the state of other teams, tournament draws, etc.
I commented on expectations and specifically said that Gott’s second season was a disappointment. IMO Gott exceeded expectations in years 1, 3, and 4 and failed to meet expectations in year 2. This area of discussion departs from facts and moves into subjectivity, but I’m fine with that.
Talent, state of other teams, and tournament draws are all components of expectations, so there isn’t much need to mention them when you start out referencing expectations.
As for talent, IMO the only season that our team underperformed its talent level was season 2. If you disagree, do you think we should have won several more games in one of the other seasons? If not, then on what basis do you disagree? If you do agree, then what overall point are you trying to make?
Second, I can go in and pick out any set of stats and back up any argument that I want to make. I won’t do it, because I’m not really interested at this point.
If you aren’t interested in backing your point of view, why bother to post at all?
Also, I disagree that you can pick out any set of stats and back up any argument you want to make, at least not if you are being intellectually honest.
Tau: I addressed the start of my post to you and ancsu because you’d specifically both asked me questions.
The stats part is in response to you because you followed your stats with this statement:
I really don’t understand the basis for people to be in the Gott opposers camp.Frankly, I’m taking the high road because I can see both sides. I know where you stand and understand why. I could gin together that made SL look like a competent coach just as easily as I could put some together that make this one look bad. It can be done. People will do it.
I would argue that there are some important metrics other than just wins and losses and graduation rates. This is big business and it is an entertainment business. Ticket sales, attendance, gate revenue, brand evalution (which we dipped hard in this year), games on TV, TV ratings, apparel sales, etc. are all important and are measures of fan interest. The fans are the customers. These metrics better reflect the state of the fan base than any of the ones you mention.
The point that I’m trying to make, is when I see this stuff come out, that means we’re in the Clone Wars time. There’s a certain percentage of people who think all is rosy within the fan base. That’s just not true.
That’s the ONLY point I am trying to make. The ONLY other positions I’m going to defend are the ones that run down our program or past coaches. I’ve decided to let everything else go related to the basketball program until the team laces it up again.
Thought I’d add something new to the conversation that has not been discussed.
When V was coaching NCSU had a reputation that was about equal to the best teams in the country. Any possible recruits knew here was a team that had just won two national championships. When V left we had 10 ACC championships, UNC had 10, and Duke only had 7. Twenty-five years later, possible recruits would not list NCSU as equal to KY, UNC, Duke, Kansas. With the changing landscaper (1 and dones), the haves seem to have separated themselves even more than back 30 years ago. It will take a few years of regularly making the tourney and competing with and beating Duke and UNC before recruits see NCSU as a top tier program. I for one am one of these who “fail to see the issue” with Gott because I do not think there is an issue. He has done incredibly well in turning around the NCSU perception and if he continues at the pace he is on, better players will come and kids will see us as one of the top programs again.
The only way to turn it around quicker is to have instant name recognition with a top tier coach. I’m not sure Archi Miller or even Shaka from VCU could do that. I think Gott is building his name and this program. For those that don’t, I hope you have big bucks to give to the Wolfpack club, because they will need it to bring in a “perceived” top 10 coach.
I think if Gott is here when Roy and K retire, our programs will be near the same footing at that is about all we can ask for.This will, obviously, give me away as having continued to read this thread, but I can’t help myself here.
I could gin together that made SL look like a competent coach just as easily as I could …
Go for it, would be an interesting one. I certainly love SL, but I’ll take the the Pepsi Challenge on that set of stats any day.
OutWestWolf: I’m not going to spend the time to do it because I don’t really care, but here’s where I’d start just off the top of my head:
– Certain streaks at certain parts of the year
– ACC tournament record: This was pretty good.
– Non-conference record: Lowe could pad some wins with cupcakes that would make the overall number appear to look decent.
– W/L record against teams with RPI of 100+ (surprisingly few losses against 100+ RPI if I recall correctly)
– Players put in the pros
– Recruiting rankings of incoming classes
– APR: I think Lowe was the highest we’ve had since that metric startedAs you mention, we know Lowe didn’t get it done. For all of these, you could find 2 that show why he didn’t. I appreciate all he has done for NC State both as a player and as a coach. He seemingly tried, transformed us from a system team with massive roster holes and left us with a balanced roster stocked with talent. He did some good things. You can find stats to support those things.
The bigger point I’m making is that when people trot out some stats and then say that based on the stats they’ve shown, they can’t see how you’d draw any other conclusion, well………………
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