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The game @ Louisville was very winnable, even though we didn’t, but considering they (Louisville), took Clemson to the wire in Death Valley, where we lost 41-0, I think we have made some gains, and the defense was much better Saturday vs UL, even it had lapses. Louisville clobbered Syracuse, so maybe things will play out and we will win the last 4 games, after this 4 game slide. It is possible, but that will be up the team and coaches doing their jobs. Go Pack!
It is one thing to watch film during the week and it is another to see what has been working in the game.
Wulfpack, I think we might agree on more than we do know if we were standing chatting.
Huxtable was moved up to the press box and Doeren handled the defense from the sideline. I can’t help but wonder if something like this would work better for the offense if Canada was up in the box. Maybe Kitchens on the sideline. I have know way of knowing but Canada may be over-coaching Brissett during the game.
I do think sometimes this staff outthinks themselves. So far, their timing and/or execution hasnt been great. (And if you don’t think a career or season can be altered by a trick play…Monte kiffin.)
However, I like the courage dd showed by suspending 7 for this game and I think the team responded well to him taking charge. Schedule definitely wasn’t in our favor but we have a favorable one in the last 4. Want to see at least 2 wins.
I think there is a feast or famine aspect to Canada. At times he has looked like a genius.
However, I like the courage dd showed by suspending
78 for this gameAlston, Fernandez, Justin Jones, Josh Jones, McKever, Ramos and Stevens for 1 game and TY McGill for 2 games due to a separate violation of team rules.
I do think sometimes this staff outthinks themselves.
I hear a lot about Canada “out thinking” himself or as you put it outthinks themselves. That may be true for the current roster.
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Continuing this line of thinking, a lot of us say we “don’t understand” what he is doing as if that makes the play calls unwise or wrong. Comments like “Dumbest call I’ve ever seen” abound.What is it that we want? Canada to “dumb down” the offense so we can understand it? Be less creative in the play calling so that the calls fit inside our knowledge base?
Matt Canada is here because Doeren believes Canada is the coach to take us where we all want to go. I am amazed at the patience that both Canada and Doeren demonstrate in installing our offense. We saw a pass play out of the Wildcat Saturday after 20 games. To paraphrase a wine commercial, ‘They will call no play before it’s time.’
Our coaches are recruiting players with the skills and smarts to understand and execute those plays plays we don’t understand.
I assert that in our 4th year going forward we won’t be making the mistakes that are costing us first downs and defensive stops. Our innovative offense will be giving opposing DC’s sleepless nights and headaches.
And if Saturday verses L’ville is any indication our defense is going to complement our offense very nicely. And we getting the studs in the pipeline to make the defense dominant.
Grey – I hope you are correct. You’ve definitely pushed your chips all in. I understand your perspective. I remember the offenses and crazy sets we ran amato’s first 3 years. I remember how effective it was and how fun it was to watch. I thought it would revolutionize the game.
But the key to coaching is to maximize the results. If you look like a genius 3 games, look like an idiot 3 games, and split the rest…you’re no different than your last 3 predecessors.
I hope that dd and Canada are the truth.
Grey – I hope you are correct. You’ve definitely pushed your chips all in.
Honestly, Chop, I had rather push them in and be wrong, than be a half-assed supporter and be right. I value loyalty and I like to think I give it. I know I’m wrong to be this way but it bothers me to be on a State fan site and read put-downs, jokes at my team’s expense and lack of support in general. Expressions of like, dislike, etc., I’m Okay with. I’m fine with criticism of our coaches and teams as long as it’s respectful. I think it’s being from another era and not being part of the internet culture.
But the key to coaching is to maximize the results. If you look like a genius 3 games, look like an idiot 3 games, and split the rest…you’re no different than your last 3 predecessors.
Agree over the long haul but not while DD is installing both new offenses and defenses — with a boat load of freshmen in key positions.
Allow me an analogy. I know of an American figure skater some years ago who was ranked 5th in the world. This skater went to a cutting edge coach for help. That coach asked what the skater wanted. He said, ‘I want to be a better skater.’ Where are you ranked now? ‘5th’ was the reply. Oh I see, you want to be ranked 4th. Our skater friend screwed up his courage and said for the first time in his life, ‘I want to be Number One.’ It takes courage to say you want to be Numero Uno. Doeren has said he is coming here and intends to be National Champion. I don’t believe I have EVER heard one of our football coaches say that.
This is long but there’s more to the story. The skater started working with the coach and immediately started falling as he pressed the envelope trying the what-ever-you-call-them skater tricks. He had to be willing to fail before he could extend himself to do the championship stuff. Maybe the analogy is not right on but it’s close enough.
Canada started putting in offense that is of the stuff that with the right personnel will produce championship results — or at least he and DD think it will. Doesn’t matter yeah or nay. They are willing to risk it. The one time Canada was turned loose, when the Wisconsin coach left for Arkansas, his offense rolled up 70 verses Nebraska. It isn’t just the X’s and O’s, you have to have the horses to run and the big uglies to block. But the results are beyond whatever else is being run. Wisconsin got passing game results running the football. I think West Virginia did the same thing to Clemson.
On the other side of the ball we changed a little more slowly. We started putting in the “stop the spread’ defense. I don’t expect many if any of the recruits ran this in high school so there is a big learning curve. Like the skater we started failing almost immediately. I’d like to think we are now doing some of those championship “maneuvers.” It looked like it at times on Saturday. I also believe it is easier to teach the freshmen than it is the upperclassmen. Not as much to ‘unlearn.’
I had a little back and forth with foose about Doeren calling the timeout on defense and calling another when the D wasn’t set like he wanted it. foose rightly said that the punt block should have been handled by the special teams coaches at the half or between punts or some such valid observation. Distinct from that what I appreciated was Doeren’s willingness to burn a timeout to make a coaching point that likely will impact the defense down the road.
Doeren fools me with his looks. He doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer but I really believe he may be one of the brightest bulbs on the coaching tree. I suspect that the coaches are all going through a learning experience. Some say we should have hired a coach who has already gone through that learning curve. I ask is what they have learned or experienced sufficient to achieve Doeren’s stated goal of winning a NC? I’d say ‘not likely.’
I give Debbie Yow a lot of credit here. She believes in Doeren and is backing him apparently 100% as she strives to have NCSU have a top rated Athletics Program over all sports. Our chancellor, Randy Woodson, appears to be playing full out to have North Carolina State University be at the top as well. None of these goals are short term and it takes guts to be willing to fail in an effort to achieve them. I call it a game worth failing. IOW worth going for even if you don’t make it. I hope the fans, alumni and supporters don’t flinch along the way.
Chop, I expect you’ve fallen asleep or just quit reading this long-winded babble. I mostly wrote it for myself hoping to understand what I believe Doeren is doing. If you stayed with it, thanks. If not… I can’t fault you there.
One more thing about Canada, I believe he is forward thinking enough to keep evolving our offense as defenses catch up — and they will. I think Doeren is bright enough to do this with the defense. I don’t think Hux is but Hux may serve a different role. Maybe it’s more management of the defense and coaches than creating. Hux does a good job if firing up the players or it appears he does. I don’t really know. Off the subject but I think that’s what or how Archer and Tenuta got along so well. One was the brains and one was the manager. I don’t have to tell you which I think was which, do I? 😉
Rick, I’d be a little embarrassed to think that winning was the only measurement of upgrade. I think Yogi’s the statement was made based on the points he noted, not wins.
I am not embarrassed to say it because the only fact we have is his record. Your observations or Yogi’s prognostications are great but they are irrelevant in that the way you measure a team’s success are with wins. If there was a national championship for “who greywolf thinks is awesome” then what you say would be germane to a coaches success but just like recruting, no matter how many stars you get still you have to win with them. I am NOT saying fire him but I certainly think it is jumping the gun to label him one of the best ever at this point. I am certainly open to changing my mind once the facts change on this subject.
Rick, tell me what you think our record would be right now had TOB been allowed two more years. It’s a pretty good idea that we’d be 1-7 or 0 – 8 even, and 0 – 12 with NO chance of winning 2 out of 4 the rest of the way out. Next question, how many times has State gone to the Orange bowl or any tier 1 bowls for that matter? DD’s team did it two years ago. lot’s of people said he did it with a team put together by someone else. Maybe, but he was part of that recruiting, AND HE took them to that bowl. He was the head coach even though he did not coach that game. Say what you want but I do NOT believe he deserves the blasting he’s getting. He’s in a high stakes game with very few chips. When he get’s the chips I think we’ll see a tier 1 bowl.
Smarter than the average bear
I am not sure what relevance the possible record of a coach who we fired has to this.
I have stated repeatedly TOB left DD with very little talent. And I fail to see how this conversation is “blasting”. It seems to be a normal, and frankly reserved, reaction from a fan base to one and a half seasons without a conference win. Talent is certainly a factor in these losses but the arguments made on here are that talent is not the only factor in our losses. And I think that is a very viable and reasonable stance at this point in time.
I see three possible reactions to such an awful record
1) shrug your shoulders and go oh well (which seems to me would be the worst reaction)
2) Get mad
3) Discuss why it is happening. Which is what we are doing.Your observations or Yogi’s prognostications are great but they are irrelevant in that the way you measure a team’s success are with wins.
You are talking about team success, Yogi (and I) are talking about coaching upgrade as measured by 1.) Players and coaches liking to work with Amato and 2. Out working TOB. If we were talking about team success, and we weren’t, I’d agree with you. Since you don’t see the difference, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
I’d be a little embarrassed to think that winning was the only measurement of upgrade.
There are a lot of different ways to get fired, but only one way to keep a head coaching job…win. That measuring stick won’t be brought out this year or next. But it will be brought out eventually and it’s doubtful that DD will get as long a leash as Duke gave Cutcliff.
You do absolutely have to win at some point. All the other stuff is just chatter, opinions, etc. You MUST win. Period. That’s the deal, like it or not.
I have stated repeatedly TOB left DD with very little talent
No disagreement here.
It seems to be a normal, and frankly reserved, reaction from a fan base to one and a half seasons without a conference win.
Would it be “viable and reasonable” to discuss the loses where we were favored by outside observers. Lumping in loses to the National Champion and other teams in and out of the top 25, teams with more talent, doesn’t seem reasonable at all to me.
Talent is certainly a factor in these losses but the arguments made on here are that talent is not the only factor in our losses.
Talent is not the only factor, just the dominant factor.
And I think that is a very viable and reasonable stance at this point in time.
I see three possible reactions to such an awful record1) shrug your shoulders and go oh well (which seems to me would be the worst reaction)
2) Get mad
3) Discuss why it is happening. Which is what we are doing.Some are discussing why it is happening, others are just pointing their fingers at the W/L record and repeatedly saying “how awful” it is and the W/L is all that matters. In Doeren’s 4th and 5th year that WILL BE all that matters. But not now. Not while he is installing his offense and defense. Not while he is bringing in new talent.
Michigan brought in the Fab 5 and turned its basketball program completely around in a year. Doeren would have to bring in the Fab 50 to completely turn this program around in a year.
I think what bothers me the most about the viable and reasonable stance many are taking is the implication that all 12 conference loses are of equal measure. No? Then why keep referring to that “awful record” when only one or 2 are awful? I’m not shrugging my shoulders and going, “Oh well,” I’m granting the staff a reasonable and viable amount of time to turn this ship around. In the mean time I’m looking for signs that it’s happening and for signs that they are making the changes necessary to make it happen.
And I’m saying that Debbie Yow and others consider Dave Doeren to be a viable and reasonable upgrade and until proven wrong, I’m going along with that point of view. I acknowledge that it’s a viable and reasonable point of view to withhold judgment until he proves them right.
Rick and others, thanks for the conversation. I’ve tried to keep myself under control while participating. 🙂
Some are discussing why it is happening, others are just pointing their fingers at the W/L record and repeatedly saying “how awful” it is and the W/L is all that matters
Maybe I am wrong but I don’t get the feel that is the predominate mentality on the boards. Although I imagine an 0-12 could sway that quickly.
I’m not shrugging my shoulders and going, “Oh well,” I’m granting the staff a reasonable and viable amount of time to turn this ship around.
I was not trying to imply this was your stance. I am sorry if you took it that way. I should have said “apathetic” and that it is a bad thing. I was lumping all the posters on this thread into the third category.
I think what bothers me the most about the viable and reasonable stance many are taking is the implication that all 12 conference loses are of equal measure. No? Then why keep referring to that “awful record” when only one or 2 are awful?
0-12 is pretty dang awful and while maybe only a couple are truly awful most teams will occasionally win one they should not. It is what makes sports fun. Going 0-12 means you not only lost those you should have won you are also not winning any you shouldn’t.
Nonetheless I would really like to see a few wins to close out the year so all of this talk becomes moot.
0-12 is pretty dang awful and while maybe only a couple are truly awful most teams will occasionally win one they should not.
Absolutely! Most straight thinking fans would agree with that. Without a QB with the skill set to run the spread offense, it is also not unreasonable to expect those loses.
Doeren choose to go the “install our offense” route over temporarily installing an offense that was more suited to Pete Thomas’s skill set. IMNSHO It’s also telling that Thomas’s competition for the job was a ex-WR — who was doing pretty well until he got injured.
As you know from the length and frequency of my posts, I sure do love talking Wolfpack football. Again Rick, thanks for the conversation. I see your point and I hope I’ve been clear with mine.
PS
2 very good teams filled with talent, FSU and Clemson, fell way off their pace without their great QB’s. I say this to emphasize how detrimental it was to not have a good QB last year. All clear thinking fans expect Jacoby Brissett to win 2 out of the next 4 games — if not more. “More” would be eweNC and if there really is a god…As you know from the length and frequency of my posts, I sure do love talking Wolfpack football. Again Rick, thanks for the conversation. I see your point and I hope I’ve been clear with mine.
Agreed. Good convo and I see your side of it as my opinion is really not that far from yours. My guess would most people are in a very similar mindset. No one likes it least of all DD.
Rick, tell me what you think our record would be right now had TOB been allowed two more years…..at least ONE ACC win, and maybe TWO UNX defeats.
I’m not rick, but my prediction if tob was still our coach is two conference wins last year and 2 this year.
With tob, we’d have more wins but no hope. With dd,I have hope but no wins…
With tob, we’d have more wins but no hope. With dd, I have hope but no wins…
You said in one pithy sentence what I’ve been trying to say in 2000 words or less. No doubt DD is trying to win but not at the expense of teaching and training.
I’ve got this feeling in my gut that we are going to see much better defense going forward than we’ve seen this or last season. It’ll be interesting to see if Fernandez and Moore get on the field at the same time. They are our best 2 LB’s IMO.
Ummm, sorry, but TOB had at best a mediocre performance with two NFL starting QBs and some decent defensive players. With Pete Thomas (4 TDs 9 Ints) Ain’t no way we would have had a win last year, and JB would NOT have transferred to State and just who in heck do you think would be playing QB this year? TOB wouldn’t even have 4 wins this year. I’ll pose that he wouldn’t have 4 wins in the two years. Nope, ain’t no way I’m buying that load of …
Smarter than the average bear
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