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So, b.otb have you changed your mind that Coach Keatts has not had enough time to teach zone defense yet?
I have heard enough from all the sfn wanta be head coaches…Keatts is in his first season and it’s not over yet. I think he has already won more than last year
Let’s see how keatts finishes the seasonSo, b.otb have you changed your mind that Coach Keatts has not had enough time to teach zone defense yet?
Keatts was hired last April…
April => mostly getting moved to Raleigh and acquainted with everybody…
May-June-July => mostly recruiting – hanging out with the Wolfpack Club – players working out on their own… that is — the ones that had signed up and were in town..
Aug – Sept => mostly getting things organized – players working on conditioning on their own…
Oct-Nov => Real bball practice…
Nov – Dec => 10 ballgames – some away – plus real practice…
Jan -Feb => conference ballgames – some away -plus real practice…
It’s still a matter of priorities…
There’s No way to do everything that’s been done and Zone too…1. Conditioning
2. One Offense
3. One Defense
4. Some situational stuff
5. Individual Player skills and fundamentals..is about all that anybody could do with new kids the first season…
chicken meet egg…In a word… No.
GO PACK!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Wuf, I dont’ disagree that if we had the fundamentals, but unfortunately most kids are taught that these days. They get by on sheer athletic ability and it takes awhile to get rid of the bad habits, if you ever do. I hope we get to a point where the D gets better, but right now KK gets benefit of the doubt. Not that he is in the same league as Bennett, but it took him a few years for their defense to take off as well.
As for talent, I lump all three together. For example BB has average to good physical talent, he is strong in mental talent. Hopefully we win one maybe two this week to get ourselves on track. The only way that happens is if we up the defensive intensity.
Wufpacker & Ryebread…
Talking about ‘Stranger Things’…
How is it possible I live 1 mile from Trask Gym and that you guys have seen more UNCW games than I have and AND we ain’t POPPED a couple tops on some cold ones yet ???
GO PACK!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Keatts has impressed me so far. I would not be surprised if he goes 6 – 0 or 5-1 in the remaining stretch.
Everyone on the team can benefit tremendously by learning to take a charge.
I’ve seen way to many times this year one of our defenders be in front of the guy driving to the basket in perfect position to set his feet but instead we try to run off beside of him while getting absolutely torched.
It’s plagued us all year, and it appears for all intents and purposes, there’s no plans to address it this year.
Wuf: It’s a chicken or egg problem. Most kids aren’t coming in very skilled in the fundamentals, particularly not the ones that Gott targeted with recruiting. It just wasn’t his style. He was star chasing, and that’s fine, but a lot of his players were much more “raw” than the type of kid targeted by UVA (whose recruits typically had a similar or lower star level). How do you find fundamentals? In my mind, look for good correlation with shooting. Most of the kids Gott recruited really weren’t very good shooters.
So, if we’re not targeting kids that came with strong fundamentals, then we have to teach them. Gott didn’t do much of that, at least not as it related to fundamentals. It also clearly didn’t happen last year without Lutz.
Then there’s attrition. You’ve got to keep them around, and in a system where they’re learning, and learning to play together. We’ve had far too many leave early.
People love to point to UVA as strong in fundamentals and I would agree. I think they recruit to it, drill to it, and then have high player retention. They were NOT good in Bennett’s first couple of years. I remember because a lot of the board coaches here told me that he was a bad hire and that Lowe was better. I told them to watch out because Bennett was a great hire and would take UVA to the top of the league like he had done Wazzou. The point, is that even for Bennett, the master of fundamentals in the league, it didn’t happen over night. Case in point:
2009–10 Virginia 15–16 5–11 T–9th
2010–11 Virginia 16–15 7–9 T–7th
2011–12 Virginia 22–10 9–7 T–4th NCAA Round of 64
2012–13 Virginia 23–12 11–7 T–4th NIT QuarterfinalsSo, while I would agree that IF our current level of talent had UVA’s fundamentals, we’d finish in the top 4. They do not, and don’t have the years in system that UVA’s players do. It’s a mixed bag of players who are really trying hard, but who have had very different training. The ones from NC State were coached by Gott and weren’t that drilled on fundamentals, or were more raw out of high school.
What should we expect that of Keatts in year one? I think he’s done pretty well, and he’s on pace to do better than Bennett did. For year one, I’m fine with it, as long as we start seeing a trend line up like UVA did with Bennett. If we have this same glaring lack of fundamentals in year 4, then we do have some problems.
Bill: I have watched UNCW on and off for a few years. I liked Brownell when he was coaching there and thought he would have been a good coach for State. I always knew that Gott would flame out because he was a bad hire to start with. When I started hearing some buzz about Keatts (year 1), I watched a handful of games. The general public took notice against Duke in the NCAA tournament, but by that game, I already knew a little about Keatts. I tracked them last year when it was clear before the season that it was put up or shut up time for Gott. I figured Keatts would be on our list, along with Archie, particularly when I heard that Murphy liked him. When I thought there was a chance we’d hire him, I watched some more and then watched some more after we hired them (including re-watching some of the games I’d previously watched).
I won’t say I’m an expert on Keatts. I’m not. A UNCW alum would know more because they’d likely watched more. I did like what I saw, and felt his system would be perfect for NC State. The kids played hard, played 4 around 1 (where we’ve had our best success this year), shot the 3, pressed a LOT (which I love), featured a big that put up gaudy stats, and were really tough at home. I was okay for trying that.
Like Rye I’m good for year one. If the Pack gets a ticket to the dance even better. Now if we are at this point year 4 or so it might be time to make another change. I think KK has done well year 1 (I also thought Gott did ok year 1 but then not so much). Sadly fundamentals are lost on “AAU stars”. I think eventually there will be some sort of adjustment in rules maybe like college baseball – end the one and done but not lock the player in for an excessive number of years.
I agree with rye and tractor. I also agree with Alias on taking a charge. The only caveat being the stupid arch under the basket. To me thats stupid, thats where majority of charges take place, but the rule now is if it in that area it is a no call or blocking. To me a charge is a charge regardless of where it occurs on the floor.
The charge rule circle is a good one. It cuts off the Duke undercut/flop and that is important. Someone was going to end their career due to that little move, likely the offensive player who was up in the air, exposed and could have come down wrong hurting a back, shattering an ankle, etc..
Agree with Rye on the charge rule. Nothing good happens when you attempt to take it under the basket (and that’s not sound defense).
Wufpacker & Ryebread…
Talking about ‘Stranger Things’…
How is it possible I live 1 mile from Trask Gym and that you guys have seen more UNCW games than I have and AND we ain’t POPPED a couple tops on some cold ones yet ???
GO PACK!
I used to be a gym rat. Now I live vicariously thru TeeVee and the interwebz. Next time I’m down your way doing coastal doings, we’ll do that.
Now…I’m really not here anymore.
😉
My coach taught us both zone and man to man in 7th grade, and used one finger or two to let us know which one to use. I’m pretty sure Jimmy V made up defenses mid game when he felt the need to do it. How hard can it be?
My coach taught us both zone and man to man in 7th grade, and used one finger or two to let us know which one to use.
H8R… Did I coach YOU?
POP!!!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!I used to be a gym rat.
That could be said for 90% plus of the guys who hang here regularly… the key words being ‘used to be’…
Now…I’m really not here anymore.
Now I live vicariously thru TeeVee and the interwebz.
OK…. I see and raise your ‘subtlty’…
NOW… All of us are ‘here’ and none of us are ‘here’…
We are all virtual…Next time I’m down your way doing coastal doings, we’ll do that… < POP ’em cold beers > .
The ‘healing’ properties of alcohol are well established in medicine… had it not been for the ‘side effects’ when large quantities are required, ether would have never been used…
NO pain… NO gain…
POP!!!
POP!!!#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!WUF: We miss you as well though I do understand. This is the only NC State forum I’m really active with any more. On the rest I just lurk with a passing interest. I wish we’d see a BJD sighting.
Heelh8r: I hear you. My concern is that this is more about philosophy. Some are man only. Some are zone only. Some are “try anything that works.” I do get that specializing on one thing probably means that you’re going to eventually be better at it (see Bennett’s packed line). I suspect Keatts is a man + press guy. I do think a trapping 1-3-1 could be fairly easily introduced because it seemingly is similar to a lot of the full court presses.
I also understand that trying to be a good at a lot of defenses probably leaves one a master at nothing. It’s hard to say what I would do if my career relied on teaching 18-22 year olds to perform at a high level playing a team sport, particularly given how lacking many of them are in the fundamentals of the game. I doubt I’d try to install a new defense 2/3rds of the way through the season (remember Sid’s attempt one season to go to the 2-3 about this time?). Now’s the time to hone in on whatever you do well, drop the excess and come home strong down the stretch.
I do miss V and his creativity though, and it’s a real shame that probably half the living Wolfpack alumni never really saw him coach. If they did, they would have recognized just how ridiculous some of their pathetically weak attempts to prop up later coaches were.
I wish we’d see a BJD sighting.
^This in Cats…
GO PACK!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!I do miss V and his creativity though, and it’s a real shame that probably half the living Wolfpack alumni never really saw him coach. If they did, they would have recognized just how ridiculous some of their pathetically weak attempts to prop up later coaches were.
There were plenty of old people that supported Herb. Some thought that he would eventually break thru. Some were happy with just making the NCAAT and a slim shot at a S-16. Some were happy just not being a laughing stock. Lastly, some subset of each of the first three groups didn’t think State could do any better.
The HWSNBN supporters who ran down V baffled me. I figured that they had some connection to the program, gained personally from that, or really were just like a scared, kicked dog. His supporters are a larger part of why he is HWSNBN in my mind. His supporters and enablers would stop at nothing, including artificially capping the program’s expectations, to try to make him seem successful. He was a gamble, it didn’t work out, and when he should have been fired he bought more time with the Hodge class (and leaving them unsigned). From that point forward though, it was just increasingly contentious and we had highly ineffective leadership. Running down V was just one of the ways the enablers operated and why that was a dark period.
Those that ran down V to support Lowe and Gott seemed just clueless to me. They were both the Titanic from the beginning with the iceberg straight ahead. With both coaches it was obvious early in year 2 that it wasn’t going to work out. Sid got time because he was a beloved alum, and because we had Fowler. Gott got more time because he pulled a rabbit out of the hat a couple of more times before the train ran completely off the track.
H8R… Did I coach YOU?
Could be. I was the short, slow, skinny one who spent a lot of time on the pine. But I was “brainy”, and poured my heart and soul into it.
V was entangled in the politics bigger than the NCSU job. I was totally against making him BB coach and AD as I saw a conflict of interest but as a BB coach he was at the top of the craft. In the end he was toppled by the Daniels family (the N&O).
V should never have been AD as well. NC State should have just paid him what he was worth and everything would have been fine.
Bill: I forgot to mention that I watched a bunch of Dayton, VCU, Witchita State and Butler games over the 1-2 years leading up to our coaching hire. I was sold on Archie, thought that we missed on Marshall when we hired Sid but that he’d be too much $$$ relative to his worth, and thought both Keatts and Holtmann could work and might come.
I was thoroughly convinced that Wade was not the right coach for NC State. He might do well at LSU, but I would think that is more a function of LSU and the fact that they can lock down the state and New Orleans area on recruiting. Do that year in and year out, and there’s enough talent there to make some noise every 3rd or 4th year.
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