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Love or hate Joe Ovies, this is some pretty good stuff with a former player adding commentary. As a student/fan of the early 80’s, I too have fond memories of Hillsborough Street bar scene. Loved the Big Bad Wolf with PKM, Thrush, Lizzy Borden and others. Interesting how they go into how that has evolved along with NC State football over basketball. There is some very valid points with our football program under DD compared to past coaches like TOB and Amato. Also some great commentary on why DD should dominate in state recruiting. With a big game looming as far as standings and recruiting, check out the video.
Basspacker – I tend to agree. However, at this point in time, I am not sure that football, as we know it today, will be around in 15 years.
I hope it survives in it’s present form.
Now, if you remove the long term viability from the equation… I do think NC State has some advantages over its fellow North Carolina ACC schools. There’s definitely more passion midway thru the 1st quarter and up to the last 2 minutes of the second quarter…and from mid third quarter until end of game – especially in late afternoon to evening games. (Early first quarter, last 2 minutes of 2nd quarter until mid third quarter we are about the same.)
Having said that, I think quite possibly, to enhance the football atmosphere, the school needs to find a way to have people in their seats when the 3rd quarter starts.
We need to be clearly above and beyond our in-state competitors.
We have the best cultural fit. I think we have more “dedicated/committed season ticket holders. I would really like to see what would happen in Raleigh if we had some type of sustained success.
I haven’t listened to the original link, but would strongly argue a counter position:
– NC State has top 15 “input$” in basketball. We do not in football.
– We are a basketball school in the premiere basketball conference.
– It’s a lot easier to keep 13 kids eligible than 85. Given we seem unwilling to play in the grey, at least to the level of some of our competition, it makes the football mission that much harder.
– We may have competitive advantages against UNC, Duke and WF in football, but we don’t against FSU, Clemson, ND, etc.. That’s not to mention the SEC and Big 10 schools that recruit our footprint.
– We’re a lot further from the mountain top in football relative to things that we can control than we are in basketball.IF the bar is merely beating UNC, Duke and WF, then I guess I understand the argument. We clearly have better inputs than Duke and Wake, though I would argue we do not against UNC. If it is being nationally relevant, I clearly do not understand this argument.
I would also argue that it is laughable that what some think ails the football program are pass outs. That’s from someone who has only used them 1-3 times in many, many, many years of attending games in CF. I don’t really care one way or another about them. I would just point out that our two losses this year (thus far) have happened away from the “pass out zone” that riles so many.
I’d suggest that we let the pass outs discussion go. It was one of the many instances of finger pointing during losses by DD. That was his excuse game one of his tenure. Last week we lost the game because a safety didn’t make a play (called out by name despite getting beaten by 3 scores). A more constructive conversation is getting him better grooming on the post game press conferences.
I’m sorry but I do not agree. I do agree we in a push to excellence but football only?
If you need a reason why watch Whitt’s 30 for 30 thing.This discussion is biased by when you attended. If you were around when Sloan and Holtz ran the programs, then both sports were great and no problem. I want both sports in the top 25… like Yow.
All you have to do is walk around in the “new” Reynolds and that will tell you what NCSTATE means… you have to give history it’s due.
Define All In, competitive advantages, better inputs, fan support by quarter and momentum. Can this team win more than 5 ACC games, the division, play in and win the ACC title for the first time in the last 38 years. I read that KK and staff were under a 1mm salary cap combined. So Yow is withholding thousands of dollars in bb savings from the fb program. What I wouldn’t give to see the accurate financial statements for every D1 school. I have read how much better State is versus ECU, SC, unx, Duke, BC and WF in football for decades. Yet, so many painfull losses.
This discussion is biased by when you attended. If you were around when Sloan and Holtz ran the programs, then both sports were great and no problem. I want both sports in the top 25… like Yow.
Yep… that’s right…
but when Sloan and Holtz were in town together, we were Top 20 in Football and Top 5 in roundball…
that’s a whole different world than Top 20-25 in both…Yes, we can!
POP!!!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!This discussion is biased by when you attended. If you were around when Sloan and Holtz ran the programs, then both sports were great and no problem. I want both sports in the top 25… like Yow.
My first years at NC State we had Les in basketball and MOC in football. By that logic, I would suggest that we should be all in on women’s basketball. 😉
I base my logic on the actual inputs to the programs and that of our programs relative to the national landscape. I pair it with the fact that we’ve actually climbed the mountain before in men’s basketball, and did it under two different regimes. In my lifetime of following NC State sports, we have NEVER played in a meaningful bowl game or finished in the top 5.
My thoughts are and have been that we should funnel the inputs into men’s basketball to get over the hump. Then we can focus on this football thing. Until that happens, run football on the cheap, or as cheaply as we can afford to given that this is a cash cow and the primary source of revenue. By that I mean, you can’t neglect it too much, though I would argue that locked in revenue from TV as well as LTRs, it’s probably a pretty safe bet.
Rye – we have tried to do that in basketball but haven’t gotten over the hump.
I actually disagree with inputs AND resources…those are somewhat relevant. However, the difference between NCAA state basketball and Clemson basketball is that we had Everett Case. Without Case, we don’t have Reynolds, without Reynolds and Case, we don’t have Sloan, without Sloan we probably don’t get DT, without DT we don’t win a natty. Without that natty, we probably don’t get Valvano. Without Valvano, we probably don’t get our second natty.
The three primary inputs are your conference – Can a successful team in the conference compete on a national level, your school’s leadership – can they identify and retain good talent, and last, but perhaps least, “consumer enthusiasm/ experience”.
In the past, when NC State was very good in football – the ACC was not respected as much on the national scene. That has unquestionably changed. I am hoping we have that “leadership” thing down for a little bit.
Regarding pass outs, if you noticed I carefully said that the goal should be to get people in the seats to start the 3rd quarter. Dirty secret, Clemson has pass outs. In the good Amato years, I don’t remember this being too much of a problem. However, the reality is that right now our stadium is half empty when the 3rd quarter starts and while it ,ay not hurt a lot it certainly doesn’t help. It certainly doesn’t help recruiting either.
I am not saying you eliminate them, rather the leadership should explore the best way to get “fannies” in the seats when the 3rd quarter starts.
The best way to get them back in the seats is clearly a competitive home schedule, year after year, and a product to match. Simple as that…And misters for September.
…Or at least a cold beer.
The best way to get them back in the seats is clearly a competitive home schedule, year after year, and a product to match. Simple as that…And misters for September.
…Or at least a cold beer.
There you go. Play sisters of the poor for the paycheck year in and year out and you’re going to have spotty attendance. Granted I was not at the game, but I didn’t hear anyone complaining about passouts against Louisville on Thursday night.
Rye – we have tried to do that in basketball but haven’t gotten over the hump.
I don’t think we’ve really been committed to doing that. We’ve made a NC State level gesture at it, but have not gone all in like Duke or Villanova.
We built the ESA and the practice facility. We’re seemingly going to build the dorms. At that point I think one could argue we have the facilities, though the ESA is now pretty close to 20 years old. We’re going to have to figure out what to do about that in the next 10 years or so, and our decision with what to do with Reynolds will likely be viewed later as short sighted. So, I’ll give you with facilities, we’re probably at an A-. Of course, that A- becomes one of the inputs.
Then there’s budgets for coaching, recruiting, support staff, etc.. When Fowler was here, we were spending near the bottom of the conference. Gott got a pretty nice budget and had an army of support staff, but we spent the money on Mark Gottfried. I think it’s great that we showed a level of support in funding for men’s basketball that we’d not done since V, but to spend it on Gott was a head scratcher. But hey, if it helped us attract KK, then I think I’ll probably be okay with that.
I would agree with you that the missing factor in our basketball program has been coaching, and it’s been that way since we had V. Les fell on the sword and was handcuffed, but I was a student then and went to a lot of basketball games. We just weren’t well coached. Then we had HWSNBN who had his own flaws and married himself to a system that just doesn’t work. We followed them up with Lowe and Gott who were obviously bad hires from day one, each with major red flags and obvious on and off the court limitations.
Here’s to hoping we’ve finally reversed that trend with the KK hire. I thought the only “can’t miss” candidate we had was Archie, but when he wasn’t coming then KK was the best choice. His style of play, recruiting territory, and overall track record line up with what we need.
I’m not so sure Archie was a can’t miss hire. I think a good choice but can’t miss is much more than that. I agree KK seems to be a good choice but until I see product on the court I’m withholding final judgment. As to football it seems we might be on the cusp – certainly better than anything since the Rein years but the landscape of ACC football is so different now. Money and facilities are always an issue. Foulup made a living on not spending money on anything other than facilities. Like Yow or not I think we can say the overall athletics program has moved forward under her watch – takes a bit of Sweaty Gary’s sting away.
^ this is a point to be considered – we have some donors who give rather heavily but now to the level of Pickens
^ Yep, Murphy is umm, mini Boone at best. However, given OKS does have Boone and the fahsilatees are really pretty good, weren’t they one of the schools involved in the Adidas pay to play deal? I don’t care too much for money, money can’t buy me love…John Lennon.
Smarter than the average bear
I’ll give creit to Foulup for one thing – he did not let the budget run away. That’s about the only thing he did right.
Fowler ran it on the cheap, and to his credit that is something ingrained in NC State’s culture.
Let me rephrase “can’t miss” with respect to Archie. A true can’t miss is someone like Izzo. None of those candidates are walking through the door for NC State. It’s not happening. The only “can’t miss” move that I can really remember in basketball over the last 15 years was when Roy left Kansas to go to UNC. He went from one cheating machine to an even bigger one to help enable him. I guess one could argue Calipari to Kentucky (match made in heaven), but it’s only a matter of time until he has them on probation (well if the NCAA even cares any more). I guess one could argue that Pearl was a “hire me and you can’t miss getting into trouble” but that’s a bad attempt at humor.
Archie for NC State though was as good as it was going to get. I think he’ll do very well at Indiana, and for the first time in my lifetime I will be pulling for them (when they’re not playing NC State of course).
Outside of that though, KK was the best candidate that was left on the list that was also expressing interest. I really liked Holtmann and thought he was a way better coach than Ohio State deserved, but I’m not sure he was ever in play for us.
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