- This topic has 59 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
^ it wasn’t puzzling; it was tongue-in-cheek. I like reading these analyses. It was just my way of saying the rankings of our performance aren’t predictive of much right now
Since I use sarcasm frequently, I’m generally pretty good at detecting it when someone else uses it. Obviously it’s time to change the batteries in that detector.
But based on who State has played, I still contend that bad rankings are very predictive.
“bad stats against weak competition is pretty much always an indication that things are going to get ugly.”
It’s already ugly but it might be a little early to declare GSU and ODU weak. Hey, I like ugly wins. 😉
greywolf: I respect your opinion but respectfully do not agree about the Wildcat. I agree with your assessment that anything that puts Thornton and Hayes on the field together in positions to be utilized is a good thing.
I don’t like the Wildcat though. It’s not like I saw it for the first time when we ran it with Sherrifs last year. I actually thought it wasn’t a horrible move with Sherrifs, until I realized that we weren’t going to let Sherrifs actually throw. He threw, what, two passes out of that last year? At that point, he just became a slow RB, which was tactically even more puzzling.
The Wildcat totally concedes the pass, which allows the defenders to know exactly what is going to happen, and ultimately where the ball will start, and most likely stay. The advantages of the spread are effectively conceded by using the Wildcat because the edges are no longer threats. The defenders can all focus on the center of the formation.
I have a similar but lesser concern about the jet sweeps in general. That motion develops very slowly, and while I’ve not analyzed the tape, it seems we have very little variation in purpose for the sweeper.
I am not in favor of any formation that takes the only passing threat (QB) away. We don’t have a dominant enough offensive line, or good enough athletes to completely remove the element of surprise.
I’d like to use Thornton and Hayes together in a 1980s styled pro-set backfield. I’ve often thought that’s the best formation if one really does have multiple offensive weapons out of the backfield.
I hope not but I would suspect once we get to fsu and further down the schedual penalties will increase on both sides of the ball.
It looked to me on Saturday night as I was at the game our backs created more than our OL doing their job. Not on a constant basis but much more than odu. Their center and left guard were winning the line. I should include the whole damn line. Of course the defense not wrapping up help their cause even more.
Is our coach relying on the front 4 only for pressure? If so, we might have to score 50 to 60 points a game just to stay in it. You can’t just give the QB that much time for 4 quarters.
Blitzing ODU any more than the 1 or 2 (maybe 3?) times we did would have been disastrous. Blitzing was absolutely NOT the way to go.
It’s a refreshing change to watch a coaching staff
that doesn’t refuse to acknowledge the obvious.They will twist before they shout.
Soon come.
‘foose will handle the translation.
As far as the Wildcat goes…last time I checked, State was at a 4.1 y/a with it.
I believe they had a 10 yrd. sweep out of it Sat. Jet sweep…from the Wildcat.
Blitzing ODU any more than the 1 or 2 (maybe 3?) times we did would have been disastrous. Blitzing was absolutely NOT the way to go.
It’s a refreshing change to watch a coaching staff
that doesn’t refuse to acknowledge the obvious.tjfoose1- Meaning they understand the talent or lack of it and play accordingly? I agree with you if that is what you are saying about the coaching staff.
^
Neither.They are setting the building blocks of playing the 42 as a base defense.
The blitzes,the twists…
soon come.I believe they had a 10 yrd. sweep out of it Sat. Jet sweep…from the Wildcat.
And another Wolfpack First Down. 😉
^<br>
Neither.They are setting the building blocks of playing the 42 as a base defense.
The blitzes,the twists…<br>
soon come.Mr. DOG, foose:
I’d say we are and have been doing this with the offense as well. Yes/No? Not only do we have to do it with the players, I expect Doeren and Canada are doing it to a lessor degree with the coaches — both O & D. I didn’t understand what the hell Canada was doing half the time last year. In the context of developing and building the offense what he does makes perfect sense.
foose and cowdog: You may be right, but I’ve only seen the Wildcat really consistently work one time against top level competition at the BCS level and that was when Arkansas ran the “Wild Hog.” That worked because they had a dominant line, two fantastic RBs and a RB that could stop in the backfield and throw a 30 yard floater pass to a WR that had leaked down field (from the back side if my memory serves). I contend that that particular Arkansas team had some very unique personnel.
As a recovering Dolphins fan, I also remember the disastrous attempts to run the Wildcat at the pro level. I thought pro defenses would snuff it out and they did.
As for 4.1 YPC, we averaged 4.9 and 6.2 YPC against Ga. Southern and ODU respectively. We averaged 7.3 and 8.7 yards per pass respectively. I’d argue anything and everything worked due to the quality of the opponents. Heck, if the Wildcat only got us 4.1, then it was actually dragging the numbers down. 😉
I’ll admit I could be wrong. It won’t be the first nor last time. I actually hope that I am.
I just don’t see how a team without a dominating OL benefits from a formation that doesn’t even include its best player (which to me is JB) and tips that the play is always going to be a run. I think defenses like FSU, Louisville and Clemson are going to have a field day with it.
^<br>
Neither.They are setting the building blocks of playing the 42 as a base defense.
The blitzes,the twists…<br>
soon come.Mr. DOG, foose:
I’d say we are and have been doing this with the offense as well. Yes/No? Not only do we have to do it with the players, I expect Doeren and Canada are doing it to a lessor degree with the coaches — both O & D. I didn’t understand what the hell Canada was doing half the time last year. In the context of developing and building the offense what he did and does now makes perfect sense.
I’ll stick my neck way out and say that Coach Huxtable is being trained too. I assert (doing that a lot here) that Doeren saw something in Huxtable that he liked far beyond his “brilliance” as a DC. Go back to the video of Hux talking to the players and you might see it. Doeren is the man behind the defensive schemes. We will be OK defensively.
In my heart of hearts I believe Canada and Doeren trust each other and what they are up to is building something that will be far more than a sniffer at FSU and Clemson’s coattails. It takes balls and belief to go about it they way they are. I’m listening to the players and they sound like the believe as well. Recruits are listening too.
Doeren will turn out to be the best Head Coach we have ever had here. Our day is coming.
I just don’t see how a team without a dominating OL benefits from a formation that doesn’t even include its best player (which to me is JB) and tips that the play is always going to be a run. I think defenses like FSU, Louisville and Clemson are going to have a field day with it.
Ryebread, Thank you for the respectful discussion you are having with Mr.DOG and foose. Since you and I started this conversation, I hope you don’t object if I step in. I’m not going to repeat what I said in my previous post but it goes with what I have to say here.
Perhaps we ARE building a dominate OL. I have little evidence except I believe in our assistant coaches abilities AND the improvement from last year. Coach Veldkampt is an important piece of the equation. I assert (there I go again) that our new recruits will become the dominant OL we seek.
Let’s be real here about the defense knowing exactly what we are doing. Often defenses know the offense is going to run and can’t do a damn thing about it. Are we there yet? Hell, no. Are we building for it? I believe we are.
Now, do what Coach Valvano told Coach Esposito to do in ’83: “Think a good thought.” 😉
Blitzing ODU any more than the 1 or 2 (maybe 3?) times we did would have been disastrous. Blitzing was absolutely NOT the way to go.
I guess I am trying to say is the where and the when we blitz not the amount of times. I understand the way this young defense has been playing especially the secondary to just blitz would be a formula for disaster. I’m aware the foundation has to be built before the walls go up in a house and coach DD knows this better than anyone.
As far as the wildcat, I feel it is a great tool that should be used but if there is not any deviation while using it then it will be snuffed out no matter how good an OL can be.
Per ODU and blitzes… What CD said. The boys are still learning the 42 basics. Not a good idea to throw in the exotic now, especially against that offense. It’s not like we have veterans all around with a few freshmen and sophomores sprinkled in.
A lil more detail: The defense wasn’t ready. Young D, inexperienced secondary, DL not getting pressure… all against a spread offense run by a smart, experienced Sr QB who is the reigning Walter Payton award winner.
Any defense has holes. Any blitzing defense has bigger holes. Any blitzing defense with an inexperienced secondary has even bigger holes. A smart, experienced Sr QB who is the reigning Walter Payton award winner running a spread offense can easily find holes. Such a QB will find those holes well before the blitz reaches him. Against our boys, probably before the ball is even snapped.
I saw one blitz I explicitly remember. It was a 3rd and short, late in the first half I believe. From the situation and their play calling, I knew it was a run up the middle, so I assume the coaches did too. I said at the time we should blitz here. We did, defense held. I don’t think I remember another play where I thought we should blitz, but I think there was one other in which we did. I was only half engaged at the time though, as I was munch’n down my Chik-Fil-A and slurp’n down my Mello Yello
I am not in favor of any formation that takes the only passing threat (QB) away. We don’t have a dominant enough offensive line, or good enough athletes to completely remove the element of surprise.
Rybread- I agree with you of always having that option. It sounds great and with quality recruits most on here would say there is nothing like telling a defense we are going to run the ball for example through the 2 hole and you won’t be able to stop us. With Me, it’s a numbers game. I would rather have the D guessing on each and every down even with the 4 and 5 star recruits if we are able to get them.
If DD and Canada in their playbook have a play while in the wildcat where Thorton or Dayes fake the run and throw it while say for example while in the red zone. It makes the formation an even more potent weapon against an over pursuing defense like an FSU or Clemson. Again as I was telling foose about the blitzing on D. Not the how many times we do it but the when and where it is implemented during the game. Surely one of those backs would be able to get it done. But only if it’s in the playbook
I really have the right intentions and I am always open to suggestions.
I am not in favor of any formation that takes the only passing threat (QB) away.
Brissett is not the ONLY passing THREAT. He’s the only we’ve shown in 2014, thus far. Rashard Smith and Bryant Shirreffs both had passing TD’s last year.
If you do it a lot, it ain’t a surprise when you do.
A naked bootleg is naked.
Re: Wildcat
The below is far from an all-inclusive review, but it should get you thinking in different ways and from different perspectives.
Anyway, a few thoughts:
There is a point of diminishing returns for the wildcat offense for most teams. As referenced by someone in an earlier post, if the wildcat is a major cog of an offense, a team needs specialists with exceptional/unique talent, and/or an OL that can obliterate the DL.
Re: Wildcat
The below is far from an all-inclusive review, but it should get you thinking in different ways and from different perspectives.
Anyway, a few thoughts:
There is a point of diminishing returns for the wildcat offense for most teams. As referenced by someone in an earlier post, if the wildcat is a major cog of an offense, a team needs specialists with exceptional/unique talent, and/or an OL that can obliterate the DL.
Re: Wildcat
The below is far from an all-inclusive review, but it should get you thinking in different ways and from different perspectives.
Anyway, a few thoughts:
[some stuff here that won’t post]
There is a point of diminishing returns for the wildcat offense for most teams. As referenced by someone in an earlier post, if the wildcat is a large part of the offense, a team needs specialists with exceptionalWithout either, as the frequency of the wildcat increases, more is put on tape, more is seen by the opponent, more is learned by the opponent – of the offense, its tendencies, and the strengths of the individual players running it. At a certain point, the tactical benefits of the formation begin to diminish.
Also, in no particular order, run the wildcat to:1) Force the other team to review it.
If I were a coach and never gained a yard with the wildcat offense, I’d still run it at least twice a game. I’d do it if for no other reason than to force my opponent to burn time reviewing it. I’d run it even if I only ran one play out of it. Per NCAA rules, a coach only has so much time with his players during the week. I’d make ’em burn an inordinate amount of time at a poor ROI reviewing the wildcat and all it’s options. Even if I only showed one play on tape, every coach knows there are many options that come with it. If I only showed one play, the opposing coaches would still have to ‘guess’ at what I might also have in my bag and therefore spend more of their time reviewing those options.
At an absolute minimum, the wildcat has value for the above reason.2) Probe Weaknesses/opportunities of the opposing defense
An offense is successful in two basic ways. 1) Putting hat on hat and out-executing the opponent. 2) Taking advantage of an opponent’s mistakes. Therefore, the goal of an offense can be broken down into two essential components. 1) Minimize its own mistakes in execution, 2) Maximize the likelihood and opportunity for the opponent to make a mistake. This is why there are misdirection plays and every play has at least one counter.
Often, the first time a coach shows the wildcat in a game, it is to have the defense reveal how they plan to attack it. A wildcat play, just like almost every play, does not have only the potential utility of gaining yardage on that particular play, but it also provides information. Information that can be exploited later, during a more pivotal part of the game. So even if the wildcat play gains no yardage, it still could be serving a purpose. If it is run and gains 8 yards, great, we got a 2’fer.Say the wildcat is run, it gains zero yardage, and the coaches see nothing that can be exploited. So next time they add a variant (for example, add a motion, maybe a trap block, maybe a slightly different formation) to probe for something that does work or can be exploited.
But say the coaches do see something that can be exploited, if a slight variation were added or a counter-play were called. Then the coaches call the original play again, and again, and maybe again, reinforcing the defenses’ read. The coaches file this away for potential exploitation later in the game.
The above are scenarios in which the plays appear to fail to the casual fan, yet are still providing value to the coaches. If the plays are gaining yardage at a successful rate, then hey, no one should have complaints and all this ‘inside baseball’ stuff is irrelevant anyway.
The above is true for any offense, but by having the wildcat in the playbook, with little effort, you’ve potentially exponentially increased options, options that a defense must be prepared to stop.
3) Take advantage of the unprepared or inattentive.
If the defense isn’t paying attention, if the MLB or defensive signal caller isn’t too astute, if the defense is wearing down, a quick no-huddle into the wildcat with the QB spread wide can catch a defense unprepared and a quick gain can be made. This could be a quick call signaled in from the sidelines or maybe even called in the huddle before the previous play.
Or potentially, the defense is so caught up in adjusting to their wildcat responsibilities, they forget the basics. Imagine an OLB or CB quickly going through their mental rolodex of responsibilities as the offense lines up in wildcat. He’s transitioning from base offense to wildcat, and then the ball is snapped… Then the defender is immediately faced with the single back and the motioning slot running an option run right at him… in a fraction a second, he’s thinking “oh @#!$t, do I have the ‘QB’ or pitchman? In base, I’m supposed to have the QB, but this ain’t base and that ain’t their QB… no wait, that’s the slot as the pitchman so that means… oh *@#!, there they go… oops, sorry coach” One mistake -> BOOM, big play.
4) The obvious: Gain an ‘extra’ blocker, quicken the play
In a ‘normal’ offense, the QB receives the ball from the center, hands the ball to the RB, then removes himself from the play. In the wildcat, the QB-to-RB exchanged is removed, the QB is spread wide and occupies a DB, and NO player is removed from the play. The offense now has an extra blocker. These are obvious advantages. To determine how, where, and when to utilize these advantages is why coaches study film and probe their opponent.So, to summarize, there’s a lot more going on in there than you might think. Give the coaches the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
Re: Wildcat
The below is far from an all-inclusive review, but it should get you thinking in different ways and from different perspectives.
Anyway, a few thoughts:
There is a point of diminishing returns for the wildcat offense for most teams. As referenced by someone in an earlier post, if the wildcat is a large part of the offense, [what I wrote here kept causing the post to be blocked for some reason, no idea why – essentially, it was saying that you need talented backs and/or a dominant OL].
Without either, as the frequency of the wildcat increases, more is put on tape, more is seen by the opponent, more is learned by the opponent – of the offense, its tendencies, and the strengths of the individual players running it. At a certain point, the tactical benefits of the formation begin to diminish.
However, with that stated….
In no particular order, run the wildcat to:
1) Force the other team to review it.
If I were a coach and never gained a yard with the wildcat offense, I’d still run it at least twice a game. I’d do it if for no other reason than to force my opponent to burn time reviewing it. I’d run it even if I only ran one play out of it. Per NCAA rules, a coach only has so much time with his players during the week. I’d make ’em burn an inordinate amount of time at a poor ROI reviewing the wildcat and all it’s options. Even if I only showed one play on tape, every coach knows there are many options that come with it. If I only showed one play, the opposing coaches would still have to ‘guess’ at what I might also have in my bag and therefore spend more of their time reviewing those options.
At an absolute minimum, the wildcat has value for the above reason.
2) Probe Weaknesses/opportunities of the opposing defense
An offense is successful in two basic ways. 1) Putting hat on hat and out-executing the opponent. 2) Taking advantage of an opponent’s mistakes. Therefore, the goal of an offense can be broken down into two essential components. 1) Minimize its own mistakes in execution, 2) Maximize the likelihood and opportunity for the opponent to make a mistake. This is why there are misdirection plays and every play has at least one counter.
Often, the first time a coach shows the wildcat in a game, it is to have the defense reveal how they plan to attack it. A wildcat play, just like almost every play, does not have only the potential utility of gaining yardage on that particular play, but it also provides information. Information that can be exploited later, during a more pivotal part of the game. So even if the wildcat play gains no yardage, it still could be serving a purpose. If it is run and gains 8 yards, great, we got a 2’fer.
Say the wildcat is run, it gains zero yardage, and the coaches see nothing that can be exploited. So next time they add a variant (for example, add a motion, maybe a trap block, maybe a slightly different formation) to probe for something that does work or can be exploited.
But say the coaches do see something that can be exploited, if a slight variation were added or a counter-play were called. Then the coaches call the original play again, and again, and maybe again, reinforcing the defenses’ read. The coaches file this away for potential exploitation later in the game.
The above are scenarios in which the plays appear to fail to the casual fan, yet are still providing value to the coaches. If the plays are gaining yardage at a successful rate, then hey, no one should have complaints and all this ‘inside baseball’ stuff is irrelevant anyway.
The above is true for any offense, but by having the wildcat in the playbook, with little effort, you’ve exponentially increased options, options that a defense must be prepared to stop, yet can not possibly cover every possible variant.
3) Take advantage of the unprepared or inattentive.
If the defense isn’t paying attention, if the MLB or defensive signal caller isn’t too astute, if the defense is wearing down, a quick no-huddle into the wildcat with the QB spread wide can catch a defense unprepared and a quick gain can be made. This could be a quick call signaled in from the sidelines or maybe even called in the huddle before the previous play.
Or potentially, the defense is so caught up in adjusting to their wildcat responsibilities, they forget the basics. Imagine an OLB or CB quickly going through their mental rolodex of responsibilities as the offense lines up in wildcat. He’s transitioning from base offense to wildcat, and then the ball is snapped… Then the defender is immediately faced with the single back and the motioning slot running an option run right at him… in a fraction a second, he’s thinking “oh @#!$t, do I have the ‘QB’ or pitchman? In base, I’m supposed to have the QB, but this ain’t base and that ain’t their QB… no wait, that’s the slot as the pitchman so that means… oh *@#!, there they go… oops, sorry coach” One mistake -> BOOM, big play.
4) The obvious: Gain an ‘extra’ blocker, quicken the play
In a ‘normal’ offense, the QB receives the ball from the center, hands the ball to the RB, then removes himself from the play. In the wildcat, the QB-to-RB exchanged is removed, the QB is spread wide and occupies a DB, and NO player is removed from the play. The offense now has an extra blocker. These are obvious advantages. To determine how, where, and when to utilize these advantages is why coaches study film and probe their opponent.
So, to summarize, there’s a lot more going on in there than you might think. It’s a relatively cheap arrow to add to the quiver, yet exponentially more costly for the defense underwrite.
Give the coaches the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
I saw one blitz I explicitly remember. It was a 3rd and short, late in the first half I believe. From the situation and their play calling, I knew it was a run up the middle, so I assume the coaches did too. I said at the time we should blitz here. We did, defense held.
Foose- I was telling this guy I was sitting next to at the game that blitzing also plugs the hole to stop the running game and there were numerous 3rd and short that ODU ran and the blitz especially up the middle might have worked like the one you stated late in the first half.
I know we were playing against a very good QB last week but if we are talking youth that is one thing. We are talking youth that are not that talented. Bottom line is no matter what D we are trying to implement here it will only be as good as the recruiting DD brings in and it really is hard because you either have to sell N.C. State or win.
This week we go up against a backup QB but a very good RB. The bottom line is each and every week there will always be someone.
If DD and Canada in their playbook have a play while in the wildcat where Thorton or Dayes fake the run and throw it while say for example while in the red zone.
I’m sure they do, but you will never see it before conference play. You may never see it.
But your points are valid, and I don’t necessarily disagree, on the surface, anyway. If I’m reading you right, you’re essentially saying ‘stop trying to be cute and do what we do well, what we know works’. I get it.
But then there are the points I listed in the earlier post. I’ll defer to the coaches as to the value based decisions they’re making regarding time and play investment.
I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if at a crucial time later in the season, in perhaps a big game (I hope we have one), we see something out of the wildcat we have yet to see.
When they line up, I’ll probably be with you in thinking “what?!?!, don’t pull out that wildcat bullsh**t now, are you nuts?”
But again, I’ll defer to the coaches. They know far better than us their personnel and the reasons behind the tactics. Too early for us to make judgments at this point.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
