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NC State rounded out its men’s basketball staff with the hire of veteran coach Heath Schroyer, who spent the last two years as head coach of the University of Tennessee-Martin, Mark Gottfried announced today.
Anyone know anything about him?
We have our third assistant head coach.Article says he played at Dematha for Morgan Wooten. Good recruiter. Early-mid 40’s. Seems good move on the surface. People seem interested to work with Gott, so can’t be as bad as some folks on here make it sound.
Well Jeff Goodman is shocked, SHOCKED I tell you…
I am still shocked that Gottfried basically pushed Bobby Lutz out to hire Schroyer (and I like Schroyer).
— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanHoops) April 21, 2016
I am still shocked that FGCU coach Joe Dooley strongly considered going to NC State — and Heath Schroyer left his head coaching gig.
— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanHoops) April 21, 2016
NC State has hired UT Martin head coach Heath Schroyer. Joe Dooley passed, Schroyer did not. More $$$$.
— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanHoops) April 21, 2016
Uh…Jeff Goodman got called out over breakfast, damned near an hour before his story broke.
Now I get what Coach M. was saying that morning. (I think.)CD has MORE insight…..but the question was asked about THE Coaches Caravan….so here is a field trip report from the CF Practice Field.
Debbie Yow. She has a new knee….so she will be fit as the proverbial fiddle for the College World Series. She spent quite a bit of time commenting that SHE would have hated to been the fans cars going home this year. She knew that the fans were grumbling….but she had to do something about it or “fix it”. She said that there were a LOT of things going on in the background that was discussed with the Coaches….but were private and would stay that way.
She did NOT tout the overall Athletic Director’s cup’s stats….but said that we had made progress and were going to continue.
She introduced several coaches….notably the ones that had had great seasons. Missing was Coach Gottfried. He is (or will be) have a “procedure” and will be hospitalized. She said she could relate to that and told him to get it over with….as she did her knee. The thought wandered through my head that perhaps to further his employment, he had consented to voluntary Neutering or perhaps Castration so as to keep his mind totally focused on the BB program. Debbie is a tough boss, but I doubt that even she would go that far….but you never know. THAT comment about his procedure was the ONLY and I mean ONLY reference to the Mens BB program…..the ENTIRE night.
Bob Bell, the WPC Chairman that heads up the Wake County Caravan did an invocation where he dissed UNC TWICE…..Coach Doeren said it was the FIRST time that he had heard a prayer that called out our rival….TWICE….everyone almost snickered during the “blessing”.
BACK ROOM DISCUSSIONS…..from SOME folks….have NO basis to believe….or dis-believe.
Coach Lutz MIGHT stay in the WP fold for many more years….as that improves his years in the NC State Employee’s Retirement system. SO, we may see him in other roles….WHO KNOWS….
Coach Gottfried is focusing on RECRUITING….and that is the reason, along with the LACK of Defense, that lead to Coach Lutz being set aside. The NEW coaches are supposedly TOP DRAWER recruiters.
No one had ANY explanation for the turnover and transfers….and ASSUME that AD Yow is, as she said, addressing it with Coach Gottfried….and has it under control.
The Lutz situation and the botched hiring of Joe Dooley were subjects that folks, supposedly, in the know….DID NOT WANT to discuss and spoil the festive evening. The phrase….”Taken leave of her senses….” was used or was asked and there was a LOT of head shaking….
NOW, this was NOT with the power donors and such….just idle conversation from folks that know each other and have Champion Club LTR”s and have been there since Day 1 (2006-07 Season). Whether the Rank and File and/or the Big Boy$ feel the same way…..is not known.
That’s it. The Meal was Excellent…..best in a LONG TIME. Four coaches were interviewed and Elliott Avent was the most entertaining.
Roo: Thanks for the scoop on the caravan. Sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said.
I think the assistant hire is a solid one. Supposedly a good recruiter and a coach focused on defense. That’s two of the same mold hired this offseason, so I think we’ve collectively realized that defense and recruiting weren’t where they needed to be. That’s good because we’re seemingly at least trying to address it.
Now, if we see the same sorry defense next year, and we enter the 2017 season with unused scholarships, then we’ll know what must be done…..
Roo, thanks for that brief synopsis. I guess only time will tell. Hopefully these two hires can right the ship.
Recruiting our way out of this mess is a Hail Mary pass, but it’s the only play we have (with MG in charge). So I get it.
Papering over hoops at the Caravan (Pravda style) is a wee bit sketch, though.
^
Why? What is there to say?
If this was said, “She spent quite a bit of time commenting that SHE would have hated to been the fans cars going home this year.” That pretty much covers it.
Also, something in your comment filters is preventing me from quoting you. Those things must be turned to 11.
And imagine where we’d be right now if DSJr’s grandma wasn’t a huge NC State fan & *NC was not under a cloud of suspicion with the NCAA’s. Without Grandmama, there’s a very low chance that we land the #1 PG in the land. Hanging by a thread.
Bjd: I think you’ve got to have talent to win in this league. If Lutz didn’t want to recruit or wasn’t effective, and Mox’s health issues limited his effectiveness, then these moves were good ones. I’m not inside the program and don’t really know.
I do know our recruiting strategy wasn’t working. Something had to change. I won’t lay that on Lutz and Mox. Maybe this is a sign of a shift in that as well, which would be good.
I get your point about needing talent to overcome coaching, system and gaps in fundamentals. The theme of the coaching of these assistants seems to be defense and expecting high effort from players. Defense has been a glaring gap, so hopefully things improve there.
I’m less optimistic. To me, it seems as if we’re blaming our woes on recruiting, as in, we haven’t recruited good enough players. I think that’s the attitude from the top. So I don’t see it as a significant change in strategy. Maybe these new folks are better evaluators, not just recruiters. I see these as connected but also unique facets of the job.
I think the recruiting philosophy cannot be so imbalanced as to lean overly heavy on recruiting 4-5 star players. I think a roster needs to be complimented by role players, developmental players, and a few stars, or potential stars. The game planning and style of play needs to play to those strengths. I don’t see us doing that. And I don’t see a real change in that direction.
Pakfanistan,
Left out the “IN” as in riding home from some, presumably, losses. In that she understands the fan’s dissatisfaction. But it was her job to fix it.
Don’t know about not being able to be quoted. Some politicians would pay handsomely for that artful Dodge.
I think a roster needs to be complimented by role players, developmental players, and a few stars, or potential stars.
Perhaps that’s what these guys can also begin to the table – the ability to recruit and keep a team, not just stars.
Pakfanistan,
Left out the “IN” as in riding home from some, presumably, losses. In that she understands the fan’s dissatisfaction. But it was her job to fix it.
Don’t know about not being able to be quoted. Some politicians would pay handsomely for that artful Dodge.
Sorry, I was responding to Beej’s comment. It was tough to make that clear.
Because I don’t need to know what the plan is, I’m satisfied knowing someone knows there’s a problem for now, which from your report it sounds like Yow knows.
Shoes: I seemingly see a shift in recruiting philosophy. Maybe it is out of desperation, but I see is offering more 4 star, top 100 type kids earlier. Maybe it’s just new blood on the trail, or maybe it is what I want to see.
I do agree with you about the offensive system. The last two years it has been a ton of isolation, so pick and roll and running a shooter off those flare screens. That offense to me looked little like the UCLA that we were running in year 1 (which was when I thought the offense looked the best under Gott). We’ve also slowed the pace down considerably from year one.
I hope we see a different offensive and defensive philosophy. There were hints that Lutz was doing most of the planning, and those flare screens looked a lot like what I remember him running at Charlotte. Maybe these changes will go with style of play changes as well.
One can only hope…..
We do need to recuit better. You cant win in the ACC with mediocre talent. Maybe a couple coaches get last years team to the bubble, but nobody does better than that with the talent we had. The transfers hurt a bit, but the biggest issue is not enough new good talent coming in.
I seemingly see a shift in recruiting philosophy. Maybe it is out of desperation, but I see is offering more 4 star, top 100 type kids earlier. Maybe it’s just new blood on the trail, or maybe it is what I want to see.
I decided to take a look at how Gott’s recruiting has progressed using the Internet Wayback Machine and the Verbal Commits site (so all star rankings from VC, rounded up or down, i.e., I am calling 3.3 a 3 star and 3.7 a 4 star).
On 4/8/12, immediately following Gott’s first season:
– We had commitments for the class of 2012 from Lewis, Purvis, and Warren and were in the running for Jefferson, with 3 other offers out to the high school class of 2012 (1 5 star, 1 4 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 18 offers out to the high school class of 2013 (2 5 star, 15 4 star (including Cat, Anya), 1 3 star).
– We had 4 offers out to the high school class of 2014 (1 5 star, 1 4 star, and 2 2 star (Martins)).
– Washington and Freeman had not been offered.By 10/22/12:
– We had commitments for the class of 2013 from Cat and Washington, with 4 other offers out to the high school class of 2013 (1 5 star, 4 4 star (including Anya), 1 3 star).
– Turner had transferred and was redshirting.
– Freeman had not been offered.
– We had commitments for the class of 2014 from the Martins, with 19 other offers out to the high school class of 2014 (8 5 star, 7 4 star, 4 3 star).By 5/10/13:
– We had commitments for the class of 2013 from Cat, Washington, Anya, and Freeman, with 1 other offer out to the high school class of 2013 (1 2 star).
– We had a commitment from JUCO transfer Lee.
– Turner was wrapping up his redshirt year.
– We had commitments for the class of 2014 from the Martins, with 22 other offers out to the high school class of 2014 (9 5 star, 9 4 star (including Abu), 3 3 star, 1 2 star).
– We had an offer out to transfer Lacey.By 9/14/13:
– We had commitments for the class of 2014 from Abu and the Martins, with 5 other offers out to the high school class of 2014 (1 5 star, 3 4 star, 1 3 star).
– Transfer Lacey was redshirting.
– We had 20 offers out to the high school class of 2015 (8 5 star, 10 4 star, 1 3 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 7 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (4 5 star, 1 4 star, 2 2 star). Curiously, DSJ was not listed as having an offer from us in this update; I assume he had an offer from us by this time, which would show the VC data is not fully accurate.By 3/27/14:
– We had commitments for the class of 2014 from Abu and the Martins, with no other offers out to the high school class of 2014.
– Lacey was wrapping up his redshirt year.
– We had 19 offers out to the high school class of 2015 (5 5 star, 12 4 star, 1 3 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 10 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (5 5 star (including DSJ), 2 4 star, 3 3 star).By 10/5/14:
– We had no commitments for the class of 2015, with 6 offers out to the high school class of 2015 (4 5 star, 2 2 star).
– Rowan and Kirk did not have offers.
– Transfer Henderson was redshirting.
– We had 23 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (9 5 star (including DSJ), 10 4 star, 3 3 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 1 offer out to the high school class of 2017 (1 4 star).By 4/4/15:
– We had no commitments for the class of 2015, with 3 offers out to the high school class of 2015 (2 5 star, 1 2 star).
– Henderson was wrapping up his redshirt year.
– We had 23 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (9 5 star (including DSJ), 10 4 star, 3 3 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 1 offer out to the high school class of 2017 (1 4 star).By 10/8/15:
– We had a commitment for the class of 2016 from DSJ, with 7 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (3 5 star, 3 4 star, 1 2 star).
– Transfer Dorn was redshirting.
– We had 13 offers out to the high school class of 2017 (4 5 star, 3 4 star, 1 3 star, 5 2 star).
– We had 4 offers out to the high school class of 2018 (4 2 star).By 3/27/16:
– We had a commitment for the class of 2016 from DSJ, with 3 offers out to the high school class of 2016 (1 5 star, 1 4 star, 1 3 star).
– Dorn was wrapping up his redshirt year.
– We had 15 offers out to the high school class of 2017 (7 5 star, 7 4 star, 1 2 star).
– We had 6 offers out to the high school class of 2018 (1 5 star, 2 4 star, 1 3 star, 2 2 star).—
That is a lot of info, not sure it reveals any sort of pattern. Plus, the data may not be complete, and the star rankings obviously change over time; for example all of the 2 stars with offers over the past year will likely turn into 5 and 4 star players.
We already knew Gott was good at getting incoming transfers, and that is shown here. I expect he will get 2 more for next season’s class and continue that trend.
We already knew Gott was pretty good at scrambling, as shown by getting Dorn and Kirk last year.
We already knew Gott goes after top talent, as shown by the breakdown of star ratings of the players he has offered over time. That said, the fact that there weren’t more offers for 4 and 3 star players doesn’t mean the staff wasn’t on them. We got Freeman and Kirk late, we just didn’t choose to give them offers as early as the bigger names.
His classes (counting transfers in their first year eligible to play) look like this:
– Lewis, Purvis, Warren
– Turner, Cat, Anya, Washington, Freeman, Lee
– Lacey, Abu, Martins
– Henderson, Rowan, Kirk
– Dorn, DSJ, ?That is a high quality group of players, so the quality has been there. Gott’s first three classes were very good or better.
His 4th class is the real problem here. He basically whiffed on the freshman class, scrambling to get Rowan and Kirk very late. The data above shows he made 20+ offers and signed none of those players. And this hurt even more because of the roster spacing; we really needed another large class like his second class, but didn’t get it.
His 5th class looks good in quality but poor in quantity right now. I still think he will pull 2+ more players in, so it should end up looking better than his 4th class.
We already knew we were runner up on at least a couple really good players (Jefferson and Bam). Had he gotten one or both of them, his results would look better. In particular, getting Bam would have made the 4th class look like a bit of an aberration. And we know he was very close on both of those guys.
So is it bad luck, near misses, or bad recruiting philosophy? I assume a combination of all of those. Furthermore, I am unclear on how the recruiting responsibility is divided up among the coaching staff, but I am under the impression that Moxley’s health issues hurt our recruiting, but not sure how far back that impact stretches.
Thoughts?
Wow….what a post.
Rob Moxley is a diabetic. No reports of any health issues that would have impacted his recruiting efforts prior to May 8, 2015 incident. He talked at length in TV interview in September, 2015 about it. Went into insulin shock and nearly died. Had complications that were life threatening. Spent 4 months in rehab. Appears that he was unable AFTER that to travel and also regulate his condition. That is why he was moved. He was primary recruiter….the guru on staff. Lutz was defense & scout team head honcho….plus other duties ( practice organization?).
Our lack of full rosters was a HC call. The lack of depth appeared to be from I’ll timed injuries, which we did not have in past seasons, and too many “stars” and not enough “back up singers”
Transferring Moxley and moving out Lutz seems like desperation. Either Coach was “covering” for Moxley’s inadequate recruiting or it was Coach’s Strategy.
In defense of Lutz, if you go after star OFFENSIVE talent, then your pickings are slim on DEFENSE.
Don’t see much hope this year….but not my job on the line.
Good discussion here.
Regarding the assistant coach hirings – they seem solid but neither appears to have come from great college programs.
The moves smell like a deb Yow suggestion. However, I am not sure if they will / can yield the necessary fruit.
Time will tell.
Regarding recruiting – it was definitely solid up until last year… But riddle me this – how do “solid” classes end up leaving us in such a pickle these last 2 years.
The truth is that because of our defections we were always on the cusp of what finally happened on 2016 since Gott “arrove” in Raleigh. We are in a similar position for 2017.
My analysis of his classes led me to believe that Gott wasnt signing enough guys to be able to withstand average to above average early departures – that are just part and parcel of the college basketball landscape these days.
Also, his reliance on transfers really exasperates this. In general – the transfers we have brought in have helped the program. However, these kids allocate a scholarship even when they don’t suit up. Again, this is fine if you don’t have a high early departure rate and / or your roster is usually highly talented – but we don’t fall into that category.
Hopefully there’s a philosophy shift ongoing and we won’t see what we saw in 2016 again and we will move away from isolation and improve our defense.
Regarding recruiting – it was definitely solid up until last year… But riddle me this – how do “solid” classes end up leaving us in such a pickle these last 2 years.
The truth is that because of our defections we were always on the cusp of what finally happened on 2016 since Gott “arrove” in Raleigh. We are in a similar position for 2017.
My analysis of his classes led me to believe that Gott wasnt signing enough guys to be able to withstand average to above average early departures – that are just part and parcel of the college basketball landscape these days.
I generally agree. Particularly in retrospect, he has not allocated his scholarships properly. If nothing else, we need about 2 more Josh Davis/Lennard Freeman types per year — guys who have the potential to help the program, if only as depth role players, and who were not highly ranked recruits.
I do think Lacey’s departure was a surprise and made a huge difference last season, especially combined with Henderson’s injury. The Washington transfer is more of an expected departure than Lacey’s was. I’m not saying that excuses Gott for not being better prepared. Hopefully it was a wakeup call that his approach was too risky.
But had Lacey not departed, I assume we don’t get Rowan, so there is a silver lining going forward. Glass half full and all that.
Also, his reliance on transfers really exasperates this. In general – the transfers we have brought in have helped the program. However, these kids allocate a scholarship even when they don’t suit up. Again, this is fine if you don’t have a high early departure rate and / or your roster is usually highly talented – but we don’t fall into that category.
You mean it exacerbates it… I completely disagree with this.
For one thing, all of Gott’s rosters have been talented. Last year’s roster did not lack talent, it lacked bodies/depth.
Non post-grad transfers are great “recruits” for multiple reasons:
– They are unlikely to transfer again, so their early departure risk is limited to leaving college basketball early. Granted, we’ve seen this happen with Lacey, but it should happen less often than first transfers, which we have seen from Harrow, Raymond, Painter, Harris, Purvis, Lewis, Washington, and the twins during Gott’s tenure.
– They already have college basketball experience and are older and more mature. Theoretically, this makes them more capable and more coachable. They already left one situation, so they are less likely to complain about minutes/role.
– They get a redshirt season to adjust to the team’s coaching/philosophy, the campus environment, and get established academically.
– They contribute in practice, which should theoretically make the active players better.
The fact that Gott does not allocate enough scholarships is a separate issue. If he was using 10+ of them every season, we would have sufficient depth every season and would have no issue using 1-2 scholarships on redshirt players.
Hopefully there’s a philosophy shift ongoing and we won’t see what we saw in 2016 again and we will move away from isolation and improve our defense.
Agree.
Tau – regarding the transfers. Again, on the whole – I think the transfers into our program have been a plus. However, it’s a fine line with these kids and they have already demonstrated a willingness to walk out on one set of teammates…but as much as Lacy’s departure hurt us – I think Washington’s (combined with our inability to bring in any new bigs) – is what has really set this program back.
We’re discussing some granular differences here. I am saying we used too much salt, you are saying we don’t use enough pepper. I think we both agree that after a couple of years of making decent food, we got a lousy meal in 2016 – and while hopeful, we are concerned about getting more bad ones in the future.
I think we’ve covered transfers in another thread (and my opinions of those). The playing time has been there. It’s not been an issue of being buried on the bench. I’m not inside the kids heads’, but from the outside it looks like expectations not aligning with reality.
My biggest issue with our scholarship plan is the unused ones. We leave more on the table than schools on probation get revoked! Let that sync in. We effectively put ourselves on probation voluntarily. It’s maddening.
Roo: You’re hitting on what I was saying about Mox. While I can’t pretend to know the day to day life of a recruiter in college basketball, I would guess being unable to travel severely hampered his effectiveness. I can’t lay it all at the feet of him though. There were other coaches on staff, and the scholarship allocation strategy was seemingly set higher.
I hope Mox helps us in his new role. Our schedule wasn’t as good this past year. I say this not about the top line names, but more about those other games that really need to be RPI builders. There seemed to be more more attention to detail on the scheduling the first few years than there was last year.
If Lutz was indeed the defensive coach, to me that is a head scratcher. I was really hoping for all these years that was just a mis-interpetation of what happened when we hired him. I never felt his teams at Charlotte were good defensively. They were good at shooting and offense, and he was hired at Iowa State to work on shooting.
On topic, supposedly Schroyer’s UT Martin teams play the same zone that Tark used at UNLV:
The success for Martin has hinged on the outstanding recruiting by Schroyer, along with his “amoeba-zone defense.” As you recall from earlier analyses, that is the matchup zone concept that was originated in Pittsburgh, nearly 40 years ago, used by Tarkanian in his Runnin’ Rebels championship seasons of the early ‘90s and now implemented by Schroyer (who learned it from Tark) to turn around the fortunes of these Skyhawks.For all of us clamoring for zone with Gott, we may finally get our wish. I hope that Gott hands the defense over to him and let’s him coach it. Anya in the middle of a fundamentally sound defense could be a scary thing for opponents.
As a follow-on to Tau’s post, I went back and looked when the last recruits were signed. If you exclude transfers, Kirk who is a project, and Rowan who was a last minute Hail Mary get, the last legitimate, normal recruit signings were Malik Abu, nearly three years ago, Lennard Freeman, a full three years ago, and DSJ, last year. I know I’m stating the obvious, but recruiting needs to ramp up quickly. The new assistants clearly have their work cut out for them.
As a follow-on to Tau’s post, I went back and looked when the last recruits were signed. If you exclude transfers, Kirk who is a project, and Rowan who was a last minute Hail Mary get, the last legitimate, normal recruit signings were Malik Abu, nearly three years ago, Lennard Freeman, a full three years ago, and DSJ, last year. I know I’m stating the obvious, but recruiting needs to ramp up quickly. The new assistants clearly have their work cut out for them.
…and the Martins.
So if you exclude most of the players we signed, the last player we signed is Abu? What’re the chances…
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