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Like Doeren or hate him, it is apparent that the death spiral has begun. His comments after game (accurately skewered by Luke DeCock in yesterday’s N&O) remind me of Tom Reed, who used to throw his team under the bus in post-bad loss comments (Reed lost at home to pre-Cutclife Duke as the notable “we are going to fire this guy” loss). The egg-laying at home on a beautiful Homecoming Day also reminded me of TOB’s dreadful loss to an awful Virginia team that more or less sealed his fate. It isn’t going to happen this year, but another losing record in the ACC next year, and DD’s going to get the Mike O’ Cain Hardees breakfast biscuit visit treatment (that’s an obscure MAF reference).
The BIG mistake made by Coaches was…
They shoulda made the Team watch the Clempsom film TWICE and the DaVille TWICE….
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Cof89 – and it should.
He has 4 games to right the ship. That’s more than he deserves…if in fact, Des Kitchings has “it” – give him the rains ASAP so we can keep some good ballers and build on something for next year. I would actually go that far the second we get to the 5 loss mark. At this rate, Syracuse looks like that moment.
Asked this question on the “Clean Sheet” forum.
OK, Would YOU, as a State Fan, be willing to pay $3 per ticket for the next 3 years to buy out Coach Doeren. I think I would.
NOW, more importantly, is the logic correct? That is what I really want to know as well. There is a long post (remember, we have them with stats and charts on the Home Page Posts) on the Clean Sheet Forum that lists my logic and assumptions and math.
Next up, regardless of WHO make the call (or the hire) of Coach Doeren’s (hypothetically) replacement…..WOULD YOU, as a State Fan, pay an ADDITIONAL $4 per ticket to provide a 50% INCREASE in the total Head Coach’s package. Coach D gets around $2.2 MM in CASH. The HAT is well over $3…probably closer to $3.5 MM….and has, virtually the same PERKS. SO, those to me are the real questions.
Again, how did I come up with that? Is it correct? It seems like simple math and logic to me….and that spooks ME. After Halloween, I might just ask some folks that are in the know and make decisions….
Remember, you PURCHASE your tickets FROM the WPC. However, they are just a “marketing” function. The Athletic Department sets the prices. In addition, the WPC does NOT contribute or give ONE FARTHING to any coach or staff. All the WPC donations go to Capital (Facility) Drives and Scholarships. The Rams Club, and countless OTHER booster organizations provide FUNDING as a Supplement for Coaches. WE, the WPN, stopped that in 1990 when Jimmy V was convicted of “High Crimes and Treason” by the N&O. The NCSU BOT (aided and abetted by the UNC BOG) and the Faculty Senate ammended the WPC Charter and ELIMINATED all “monies” going directly to Coaches (and persumably….key STAFF).
Bottom line…..if a change is made….Ticket prices will increase as we are at or barely above “Break Even”. However, Break Even is NOT the norm…many of the big time athletic programs are “IN THE RED” and that is why TV dominates their decisions. If what I read and dug up is correct, then AD Yow should be commended for that side of the business….
As for watching the Clemson film twice, Doeren said “we got our feelings hurt” and the team couldn’t handle it. Maybe he should coach another sport if he gets his feelings hurt playing football. I’m sure Dave Doeren is a nice guy but nice guys finish last and we are well on our way…
I think he needs to go ahead and break out the Clemson film this week. What a doofus for not making them watch how real football is played, the one time they do it in his tenure.
I think he needs to go ahead and break out the Clemson film this week. What a doofus for not making them watch how real football is played, the one time they do it in his tenure.
=========================Damned right…
“OK, Would YOU, as a State Fan, be willing to pay $3 per ticket for the next 3 years to buy out Coach Doeren, pay an ADDITIONAL $4 per ticket to provide a 50% INCREASE in the total Head Coach’s package. I think I would”
Frankly, HELL NO !! The Administration got us in this mess, they need find a way without putting the burden on us the customer. I mean, we have been ask and ask to ante up to the point I’m done giving. From pledges for new facilities to LTR contracts and yearly commitments to the WPC….time to spend their damn money for THEIR poor decision with hires. The product I paid for and repeatedly willing to increase pay for should not continuously make me and you ante up. It appears they (AD) has failed on their end of the bargain and quite frankly its their turn to make it right without digging into my back pocket again.
I feel sorry for the people who bought lifetime rights. Given a captive audience, just creep those ticket prices up $20 a pop and they’ll still buy. LTRs have created a guaranteed future revenue model that most businesses would kill for.
Coach D has a buyout of close to $2.5 million, I am pretty sure that he is not going anywhere. The issue is we have too many games like this one where they come out lethargic or over confident, which shouldn’t have happened considering the A$$ kicking we took last weekend. We are stuck with him for the time being, so suck it up my fellow Wolfpackers we are buried in mediocrity at this time. Good news is I think we may go 500 in basketball.
BassPacker,
OK, your call. Now I need to ask a question….and perhaps also fill in details. Did you read my analysis on the Clean Sheet forum?
The AD Budget is strictly that. The Wolf Pack Club (WPC) does NOT make out any checks to the NCSU AD. The WPC dues and special campaigns and such, if I am correct, are spent BY the WPC. The WPC sells the tickets…I assume that there is an “admin” fee for such, but the WPC does NOT supplement or pay any of the coaches or is a “line item” on the AD Budget. I am merely stating what I believe is correct….you can check it out. The Rams Club, as do the majority of the OTHER Power 5 Conferences’ Booster Clubs “supplement” the coaches’s salaries. I ASSUME that the LTR $$ go to the WPC and NOT to the AD…but that is something that I do NOT know for a fact….
The AD now has the marketing rights and also the TV/Radio rights to all WP events. Coach Williams and Fedora get income from three streams, in addition to the UNC AD. Rams Club $$; Shoe/Apparel $$; Radio/TV Show $$’s. That is hard to dig out, but it is out there if you read and dig enough. We pay Coaches what they get….they can do TV spots, open restaurants, conduct camps or wash cars….and THAT is theirs….but the Biggies are part and parcel of the AD Budget.
NOW, having said that….What would you propose as a method of “funding” coach Doeren’s departure? What would you propose as a method of funding for a salary increase for a new coach? We are currently about 2/3 rds of what UNC is paying (in total) for Coach Fedora.
Also bear in mind that the courts and the NCAA have formulas for “what you can spend and where” on non-revenue sports, specifically Title IX. Also bear in mind that our legislature ruled, many years ago, that it is “illegal” or Politically INCORRECT to charge a Florida 1st. Round NFL Draft Pick the SAME tuition as a scholarship Tennis (or fill in the blank) Student Athlete. BUT, they did it for all the Consolidated University….so, when the WPC pays for a scholarship, if we give it to an out of state student, it costs about 40% (don’t take that as Gospel) MORE.
NOW, if we “classified” the Student Athletes as “Employees of the University”, then maybe they could declare themselves as “Legal Residents of NC”. That is slightly off topic, but this whole issue is complex…and you DO have to follow the money.
We currently do sell out MOST of Carter Finely. NOW, if you want to NOT allow the students to attend (take away THEIR tickets), then you could SELL THEM….that would add INCOME….BUT, there are “protocols and guidelines” for such….
SO, I am at a loss. How do you cut costs in the AD without a Federal Judge or the NCAA declaring it “illegal, immoral and unethical”?
Thanks for taking time to respond and also for any future thoughts….I’m fresh out….so I took the simple way.
BTW, if our LTR’s were “refunded” for lack of value….then there would be a RUN on them…probably….and THEN the WPC’s Revenue would shrink and we would have LESS $$ for capital programs and scholarships.
Roo, I get what you are saying. Honestly, I don’t have an answer. Just seems every solution boils down to the fanbase having to pay more. All I know that frustration has set in and my pocketbook is empty. I paid off my LTR this year, seen little success other than a win or two against Carolina or FSU along the way. No championships, no big upsets and no progress in the program. I’ve paid my WPC dues along the way, showed up every game even as ticket prices rise, even donated to the pledges. To be ask if would give more just for lack of better example, makes me like Trump, saying what most fans are thinking, just maybe not saying it PC…..”30 years of the same and you want more”?
Along the way, we have seen huge buy outs, contract extensions and salary increases for coaches. US? Just another WTNY. Asking us to pay more to help solve a hiring mistake makes me even more frustrated. Yes, I want championships and I want good coaches, but I be damned if will help pay off a supplement pay to a coach who is fired for not doing his job again. Theres more revenue for these programs and salaries than just from the fan base. As mentioned, tv rights, LTR, WPC dues, and suite rental. There is also stadium ads, concessions, name rights, etc. Time to use it, stop digging in my back pocket for admin mistakes. Even pisses me off more to see a coach fired and ride off into the sunset with million $$$ supplements.
You bring up a good point and makes me ask….”where does all the money we pay for tickets, LTR, dues go?” It can’t all be spent on facilities. Maybe it should be looked into as a way to pay the coaches like UNC. Just don’t like reading about more money. I’m sure there will be increases in another form. I paid my last LTR installment this year, almost feel assured there will be some new fine writing to come about paying more even though my contract is paid in full.
Bobby Purcell Salary – $343K according to ONE source.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4211Debbie Yow Salary – $690K according to ONE source.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/article18772455.htmlBubba Cunningham – $706K according to ONE source.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article107285762.htmlJohn Montgomery (Rams Club Exec Director) $304K according to ONE source.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3654NOW….I also want to throw out his little factoid, as it was probably MISSED, and it is telling to me….
When AD Yow pulled the pin on TOB, we had a 2 year “buyout”. His base was $600K, so we owed him $1.2KK…OUCH. BUT, TOB wanted to work for UVA. There was (thanks to Lee Fowler….did I ACTUALLY TYPE THAT?) a “Non-Compete Clause”. I guess when he approached US about Chuck’s job, our attorneys smelled the proverbial “he may bolt again”. SO, they added it. AD Yow did NOT waive it. She and TOB (their lawyers probably) settled on a $200K payment. So we saved $1,000,000 when TOB left. That was FOUND money.
In addition, when AD Yow offered Doeren the job, he had a (memory) $750K or so “Buyout”. OK, we gave him a signing bonus of that amount. We (nor any OTHER university) can NOT pay the “I left you” penalty. THAT is a contractural obligation between the Employee and his Employer. NOW, if you do some googling and some late night (wonderful insomnia cure) reading, you will find that MOST (don’t ask for a %, but MOST of the ones I found) of the NEW contracts have a “Net Sum of Zero” tax adjustment. That means that the Coach will receive a “grossed up” amount. So, if he owes $500K and the taxes on that will only net him $350K, then they Gross it up. They keep playing with the numbers until he NETS $500K, AFTER Federal and (if applicable) State Taxes. In coach Doeren’s case, he would have paid somewhere in the 43% (memory) range. So, he had to fork over $325K OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET. NOTE to the astute young person that says…”that buyout payment is a Business Deduction….” Nice try, but even Warren Buffett’s or Donald Trump’s or the Clinton’s accountants can NOT pull that off. INCOME is INCOME…and DD paid the taxes on his Signing Bonus….which he immediately signed over to NIU.BUT, AD Yow did add in a LOT of incentives….and they “blosssomed” in the 2015 extension. MOST of the Competitive Ones never kicked in (wonder WHY?). Don’t know about the Academic ones. Gott’s Contract is also loaded, but it is really simple compared to Doeren’s. You need a computer program with a flow/decision chart to see if he gets a few extra sheckles…..
Therefore, we may complain and question certain decisions, but AD Yow did a pretty good job of “settling” with TOB and saved us One Million. She also did not spend all the butter and egg money on Doeren. BUT, he is paid about 2/3 of what Coach Fedora makes. There is all sorts of info on athletic programs and other data on most college programs. You can also find the NCAA filings for each major college….that is a 50 page form (Yawn)….but if you read it and study it, it tells you a LOT….ZZZZZZZZZZ
Yea Roo.
Hindsight is 20/20…like Gott, he had huge question marks. In Gott’s case – you knew he could coach, but his ceiling was pretty well established and he had shown an inability to sustain success.
With Doeren it was more of a question if he was capable of building. Ideally, you would find a coach who had built the proverbial business AND succeeded at a better rate than the man he replaced. While DD clearly moved NI forward, he essentially got rich from inherited money.
The NC State gig was a different manner entirely. I would hope that her contacts reached out to Fleck and asked “uh, hey, why did you bolt 1 day after accepting the OC job at NI. Did it have anything to do with DD?”
Sheridan advanced (he replaced cleric’s boy Art Baker) and he sustained. He was also familiar with the region. These are all good things.
Certainly, every situation is different and of there was a way to predict what coaches would be successful, most smart AD’s would mimic it (I do think Deb Yow is pretty sharp)… however, for my money, I would feel more confident about the future of a program if I could find a proven builder AND sustainer.
^chop, I’ve tried to make that case many times. It’s all the more important in football because the roster is so big, and depth is so important.
My feeling is that ADs in power conferences have gotten risk averse and sloppy. They may utilize search firms too much, and not just to avoid publicity.
Hiring the big name, or the “hot coach” is a popular choice, especially for arousing interest and fan support, but it’s usually not the recipe for success if you’re trying to build a top caliber program, and do it on the relative cheap.Whiteshoes – I agree.
I also thinking that Yow thinks a lot of her “gut” / “instincts”…I can dig it, but unless you habe been on that cauldron and locked room – it’s just a guess – and quite frankly, even a lot of guys who have been there get fooled. But if you haven’t, perhaps, shelve the instincts and go on data.
Heard Steve Logan on the radio. Must agree, we lose to BC on homecoming, when a bonehead lines up in the wrong spot, and lose a TD. And then to end it, the WR had no clue what the play was, when Finley called a fade route, and the ball intercepted, and this is DDs fault? The guys gotta get their heads in the game.
BOTB,
Are you recommending the establishment of a “Steve” INDEX. Need to know what other “Steve’s” will be used and what the sampling and weighting factors are…..
Wonder, Allen, Speilberg, Spurrier….THEN we can validate the Index and Correlate it with the W/L and other determinants….
You get to pick any or all and also set up the ratios or the formulas….
Guys not having their head in the game is a function of coaching. Ever see a Harbaugh coached Stanford or Michigan team one out flat or unfocused?
Eventually, you are what your record says you are in sports. DD’s record basically removes all other discusssion. He’s challenging Reed as the worst in my lifetime at State. Every single year the talent level has been higher than the record he has produced.
If we’re too cash strapped to make a move or don’t really care, I can definitely understand. I don’t understand the thinking that says he’s not responsible or making excuses to defend him. It is year four. If the players suck, that’s on him (and I don’t think they do for about 75%).
Are you recommending the establishment of a “Steve” INDEX.
No… that “Steve” has been known on regular occasions to be something less than self-advertised… otherwise, he’d be on the sidelines somewhere holding a clipboard instead of a microphone.
Just another joke… maybe this one won’t get out of hand.
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!As they say you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it. Coach leads, but can’t make them do the obvious. He said they have gone over the alignment on the line numerous times. So the player wasn’t following thru, on what had been coached by the staff. Not saying I am in DDs corner. But will see what happens from here on out. If it is a downward spiral, then I say change is needed. We will see what happens tonight vs. FSU. Go Pack!
I’ll be in The Horseshoe tonight and unable to even follow the score of the FSU debacle. Interesting to see an NC State vehicle with a Wrightsville Beach sticker in the hotel parking lot. Go Bucks!
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