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Hi everyone! Hope you’re having a great Christmas Eve and that everyone is staying safe out there. In this guest column, long time SFN member ‘bill.on
[See the full post at: Guest Column – Not your UCLA High Post Offense … ].. well paky…
to start with it takes three season… when starting from scratch
to get enough guys with enough experience to bring new kids into that system…
and then everybody on the floor has to have an above average BBIQ…The word above is “this” in “this team” … which is the 2014-15 edition…
not next season’s edition…What we are running could possibly morph into a more authentic UCLA High Post set by moving the two Bigs from the blocks to the elbows… but then they had better pickup some skills and some footspeed….
I hope you and your family have a great Christmas!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!The one thing I’ve been hung up on all season is Cat. It always looks like the chains are on him and he’s being forced to play a game in which he’s just not accustomed. I sure hope that the Cat of the last 10 minutes of the game will be the new Cat. Quite frankly, I would like to see him let loose on a couple of 3s or medium range jumpers to force defenders to play him honest. He can be absolutely electric.
“The 2014 Wolfpack ‘might’ have run this set TEN times this season…”
Well, we have certainly tried to run the UCLA High Post quite a bit, but tend to abandon it early in the possession.
It would probably be more accurate to say- We haven’t SUCCESSFULLY run this set ten times this season – but I get your point.With the way they’ve been playing defense, perhaps they ought to run the type of offense that was employed by Paul Westhead at Loyola Marymount back in the 1980’s.
^8pack.. I’ll go with that… no problem…
What’s more important for the rest of this season is keeping the “right combination of guys” on the floor at the “right time”…
^Avid… I didn’t “discuss” our defense for a couple of reasons…
For now, let’s just say …
Defense is all about “energy” and “matchups”…Matchups change from game to game and you do the best you can with that…
Energy is another matter…
and if these kids can be successful on the offensive end of the court…
that “energy” will transfer automatically to the defensive end… and back…We saw that happen in the last game, too.
Ya’ll have a great Christmas with your families!
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!First off, nice article. Thanks for writing it Bill.
A couple of points/questions
1) if the UCLA offense takes three years to learn how did we run it the first year Gott was here? I don’t think it takes three years just the right personnel. Which brings me to…
2) Why did Gott recruit a team that cannot run his signature offense? The UCLA has been a good offense. When run well it is hard to guard. Given his aversion to tough defense he needs to have a superior offense and get here we are. The UCLA gives us an identity, run that successfully and okay decent defense and you have a team that can make a good run in the tournament. My hope was we would improve our defense. Well our defense is a little better but the offense has dropped precipitously.
Let me look at some numbers and I will add some more.^1. be sure and include 8pack’s ‘edit’… in your calculations..
‘It takes three seasons to run the UCLA High Post “successfully”…’2. I could be wrong… I don’t remember seeing a whole lot of UCLA High Post with any GOTT team..
especially… the first one…3. On the recruiting trail… Only Cal and maybe Coach Rat get to “Pick the Ones they want.”…
The rest of us have to “take the Ones they can get”…
Recruiting is an Art not a Science.As I see it… GOTT & Company are doing better than Lowe at screening out the “head cases”…
and they are doing a better job than HWNSNBM at getting ‘more athletically skilled’ guys…There’s no question… everybody we’ve gotten as a Freshman the last two season has been good coachable kids who all were “missing something” fundamental… and we’re not hearing about anyone having ‘problems in the classroom’, either…
I’m not being negative or nitpicky ’bout that… for example… Anya had to shed 60=70 pounds, Anthony had to learn how to be Team Player, others needed to improve their free throw shooting, others needed to improve their BBIQ, etc …
No… GOTT & Company have not given any scholarships to any High School kid who was a projected All-ACC player his first or second season… and so, yes… one of those guys would be almost automatically take us to the next level, especially if he was a true Point Guard or a true Center…
That said, imho, We are doing a good job of “growing our own”…
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Great article Bill. I agree with the “wonky” offense. Nothing against CAT but we REALLY need a true PG (we have needed one for a very long time). One that controls/runs the offense. Penetrate, pass and hit open shots when needed….or create them.
A PG that’s a leader..yeah that would be awesome! You don’t have to bad mouth Cat to simply say he hasn’t progressed to what we need as a PG. He has plenty of talent, speed etc but he still hasn’t put them all together. He may or may not be able to make it happen at PG. The problem is Gott put all his eggs in the Cat basket so we don’t have the greatest back up plan. Sure wish we had another solid PG to help but for now maybe Lacey can handle that role. Merry Christmas!!!
Hank “the bank” Gathers & Bo Kimble? Sign me up…and Cat makes a better 2 guard (if he can drop some 3s).
Bill,
If I understand you correctly, “energy” = “effort.”
With our team, the energy/effort on defense seems to improve when our offense starts clicking. I wish we could get to a point where playing good defense could spark our offense. Really good teams can get spark from solid play on either end of the court.
Our wings need to start taking it to the hole more often. I see our possessions looking like we look for a quick shot from the perimeter, and if it’s not there, pass it back to Cat. So, de facto, Cat is our only threat off the dribble. Our wings need to mix a few more drives into game. Tip-slam dunk by our bigs! We aren’t gonna, haven’t been, and probably shouldn’t be passing it into the post, and the ball needs to get there some how.
Merry Christmas, y’all!
Bill, thanks for the effort. I am not sure what I am seeming in terms of offense. I just don’t like it. A lot of standing around. A lot of dribbling. Whatever you want to call it
My view is that you can immediately see a well coached team. Other teams in the ACC and lesser opponents actually run an offense that works. We have good enough talent to be better. I don’t think Gott or anyone on his staff is very analytical or can develop players much.
Hope I am wrong. don’t see us ever getting out of the middle of the ACC with current approaches.
Do you think we are getting better on defense? Would love to see that.
I think think we’re seeing the ucla high post principles at work, albeit it with some different starting points and action. The problem is the lack of skilled interior players with high bball iqs.
Therein is the rub. There are relatively few bigs with the skills to pull this off and fewer players with bball iqs in rhis age. Add in the physicality of defenses, which makes it more challenging.
In years 1-2, gott had extremely skilled offensive players at every position, good size at guards, and mismatches all over the court. Sure, each player had weaknesses, but among college teams, it doesn’t get much better.
Last year, we had buckets whose skill and iq we haven’t seen the likes of in decades.
We have neither now. Lacy is stellar but he won’t get the same easy baskets warren got on offensive put backs, back cuts, or post ups.
This team has to speed up the game, press, trap, and run, goad opponents into taking early shots in transition, or they’ll be in for a long year. We’re simply not good enough in the half court on offense or defense.
@eas … If I’m repeating myself, I’m sorry..
Considering the starting place… that is, what Anthony brought with him from ( High School, habits, attitudes, BBIQ, outside shot ), I’d give him an B+ to A- on his progress so far…
Check that…
Considering that Anthony was a two-dimensional player out of High School — with natural blazing speed and quickness, who could successfully drive past any 3,4 or 5 high school kids and on the other end of the court could take the ball away from anybody he played against…
… after a season of Reality, this season, I’d give Anthony a solid A for effort and attitude and GOTT & Company the same grade for being extremely patient with him. You cannot teach any faster than the kid can learn.
Anthony will be a first Team All ACC guard in 2016 if he stays in Raleigh.
——————————–
@avid … You GOTT it right ..
its’ “The Basketball Theory of Relativity… ”
“Energy” creates “Effort” …
and “Successful Effort” creates “More Effort” to the second power …
which “More Effort” creates “More Energy to the third power …Three is a magic number …
In basketball… three goals in row, kid gets three rebounds in a row, kid makes three FTs in a row… etc …The Third Power is called “Momentum” …
which is not constant, but is always accelerating or decelerating…During Periods of “Momentum”, Time slows down for those creating the “Momentum”…
and speeds up for those “watching”…Warped Time forces opponents to make mistakes… which creates “More Energy” and “More Momentum”…
During Period of “Momentum”, Size is also warped…
Big becomes small and Small becomes Big…———————–
@red…“Cat is our only threat off the dribble. … “
The stats, if available, will show Lacey has as high a success ratio as Anthony … especially in the half court offense…
SR = (MadeBaskets – Missed Baskets ) + ( Assists – Turnovers ) / Touches in Position
———————–
@Prime…
” I am not sure what I am seeming in terms of offense. I just don’t like it. A lot of standing around. A lot of dribbling. Whatever you want to call it…”
Your eyes do not deceive you… I’ve seen more than a few “whatthehellaretheythingingornotthinkinginthepaint”… moments this season …
But this, with all due respect, is mistaken…
” I don’t think Gott or anyone on his staff is very analytical or can develop players much. ”
First thing is that Coach Lutz is well known as an “Xand0s” genius… a numbers freak… and that doesn’t mean Coach GOTT doesn’t know “Xand0s”, just that Lutz is a ‘genius’…
Second thing… You cannot teach any faster than the kid can learn.
Third thing… You cannot teach kids who don’t want to learn.
Fourth thing… All our kids GOTT a lot to learn..
Fifth thing… It’s Coaches job to get kids to do things they don’t want to do and to do the things they don’t yet know they can do….
And yes that’s a tautology for each player/coach relationship…
and to measure the “results” is about the same as measuring global warming…
The numbers all depend on which Time frame over which the comparison is made…Reasonable people disagree when they are not looking at the same time frame.
To call it… “yes, they can or no, they can’t” is like looking at a snapshot / one frame of a three hour movie… and saying “I like or don’t like the movie”…
——————
@whitehsoes…
The problem is the lack of skilled interior players with high bball iqs.
Yep… that’s a BIGs problem this season….
——————
I hope all ya’ll continue to have a great Christmas with your families….
Skype is the old man’s Santa… My son is in Korea… :>}
Some of ya’ll know…. George Jetson invented Skype..#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!To call it… “yes, they can or no, they can’t” is like looking at a snapshot / one frame of a three hour movie… and saying “I like or don’t like the movie”…
Sounds like you might have some accounting blood in you. I hear the drone of a Harrelson Hall professor, “the balance sheet is just a snapshot in time. It is ever-changing. The income statement (wins and losses) is a year long photo that measures success or failure.” Much like Costanza – “In order to understand Risk, you must define Risk.” Yeah, I added Chief Risk Officer to my Architect resume.
I give myself an F on SFN. It took me two plus years to find the quote button. No more ^ from me.
Just got around to viewing the LaTech game. Here are some takes, some already mentioned by others.
1. Yes. They are absolutely running the UCLA high post.
They are in the 2-3 and 1-4 on pretty near every possession.The 1st half provided alotta good looks that just weren’t converted.What,they went 4-18 at one point? These were not forced,or bad shots…failed shots,yes.
2. No. This not your UCLA high post. I don’t see a Kevin Love, Ed O’Bannon, Wilkes, Walton, or a myriad of post guys on the floor.
Now, I’m not reffering to the obvious talent gap in those names, rather the abilities of those guys to find that other guy down on the low blocks after entry to the high post.I counted 3 missed opportunities for that low block pass in the first half, alone.That said, it hasn’t always been the high block guy not seeing his compatriot, but hesitation or mis-timing of the guy dropping down that has caused essentials of the high post offense to missing.
Hence, at times (frequently) this is not your UCLA high post.
*Note: If I can get one of the actual creators of Wooden’s offense to break a State game down for us, I will pass it on.
Sounds like you might have some accounting blood in you.
There’s no accounting for Bill…..nyuk nyuk nyuk.
BTW, for those of us who are noobs and know nothing about the high post offense, this seems like a good primer.
^Merry Christmas! Cuz…
Hope ya’ll at having a great Christmas at the CowDogHouse…Good points…
Let’s do this…
Let’s ‘chart’ the next game ( Cincy 12/30 ) and count the number of times from a set play…
1. BIGS setup in the UCLA 1-4… BIGS on the Elbows…
2. A BIG gets the ball on the Elbow…
3. A BIG shoots the ball from the Elbow…
4. A BIG scores from the Elbow…
5. A BIG passes to another BIG on the Block
6. No Pass -A Big rotates down to block on the ball side…Same BIGS setup in the UCLA 2-3… BIGS on the Blocks…
except reverse #5… A Big rotates up to the Elbow on the ball side…Both ways as a Percentage of Total Offensive Possessions where a set play was run… and then compare numbers…
—————-
The more important things I’ll be looking for on the offensive end of the court are…
1. How many minutes we see Lacey, Anthony, KW and Abu on the floor at the same time…
2. How many times Lacey is the guard who sets up the half court offense…
3. What Anya does or does not do…
4. The Final Score…#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Nice job Beach, really appreciate the effort you’ve put into the article and your responses to keep the conversation going. Love analyzing basketball.
Now as to whether we ever run the high post, not an expert but I think I’ve seen it. Just not successfully. I’m sure there are innumerable variations, but the basic pass to the wing and rub off the defender on the way into the paint we are trying sometimes.
What I think I am seeing (again, not an expert):
1) We often start the possession with the basic spacing / positioning.
2) Weakness #1: The only way this works is if Cat is on point and passes to TL. RT is a weak passer and decision maker. (“Wait a second, you want me to give this ball that I love to shoot to someone else???”) It may work with TK on point and Cat on the wing, but I don’t recall seeing that.
3) I think the pass and PG shot inside from the wing has to happen really quickly, before a big can recover. We don’t seem to be able to get the ball to Cat posting up his guy – plus, Cat has not really been able to beat his defenders often, other than in the open court.
4) Weakness #2: So then the ball goes to the big on the elbow. We’ve definitely seen that many times. That’s where the big’s BBIQ comes into play, and we aren’t strong there yet. Nard and BeeJay look to their first read, don’t see it, and bail back out to the point and it is over. Kyle looks for the shot first it appears, and because of his height I think it looks open pretty often. Almost impossible to defend a jump hook from a guy who is 6’9″. So the shot falls or not, but the offensive scheme is over. Then there is Abu, who I feel like is making a greater effort to find the right pass. He seems to hold it longer. But he seldom is able to make that surgical strike for the money pass.
5) Weakness #3: Then we bail. As someone said earlier, we give it a weak effort then make stuff up. Kind of like RGIII a couple of years ago, look for that first receiver, if not open, run for it.I think the point Beach made about it taking time to implement well, is correct. Not sure if due to poor teaching, inability to absorb new offenses, or it just takes longer than we’d like – but our guys are still growing. We can definitely see improvement.
I thought this year could be a special one because this team has more talent than almost any team we’ve ever had (meaning, 10 deep that can play), but I don’t think so now. I think Gott’s searching for the starting lineup has hurt us in implementing the offense, because the same guys aren’t playing together all the time and learning trust, and where the other guy likes to catch the ball. He’s trying to develop everyone, and it is slowing us down.
I think we are going to get beaten up pretty badly in January and there will be talk of this year being a disappointment, and not meeting expectations. If the guys can stick together, keep their heads up, and continue to improve, we might peak late in the season and make a decent bubble argument.
The UCLA does require high skill big men but not necessarily the highest rated recruits. The Kyd from Clayton who went to Cincinnati would have been great in it. Abu will end up doing well in it. The others I am not so sure about.
I like the UCLA offense alot. If Gott can run it and improve his team defense he could build a really good program my concern is the offense has gotten worse while the defense has only improved a bit. And the recruiting has dipped as well.
Sounds like you might have some accounting blood in you. I hear the drone of a Harrelson Hall professor….
^F68…
C.P.Jones… Finance … BUS320..
The “CLASSIC” explanation of balance sheets and income statements….“You run your business off your Balance Sheet… You can make the Income Statement say anything you want or need it to say…”
GOTT a high A in that Class…Then I took ACCT265… I went to class six times all semester and took the tests.. made a B… ’cause the G.A. told me not to come to class after the first day… She was in Dr. Jones, the same semester as me and made a B…
Back in days when a kid could do stuff like that at NCState….
:>}
—————^Paly…
There’s no accounting for Bill…..nyuk nyuk nyuk.
A 100% True Statement….
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!What I think I am seeing (again, not an expert):
1) We often start the possession with the basic spacing / positioning…That right… but with the BIGS on the blocks, not on the elbows..
(“Wait a second, you want me to give this ball that I love to shoot to someone else???”)
This is a MAJOR Improvement over last season… He’s thinking… about doing the right thing… Last season, there’s was no concept… Next season, Anthony won’t
be thinking, he’ll be doing it automatically… most of the time…It may work with
TKLacey on point and Cat on the wing, but I don’t recall seeing that.THIS is what we saw more of in the last game… than in any previous game this season…
Not sure if due to poor teaching, inability to absorb new offenses, or it just takes longer than we’d like – but our guys are still growing. We can definitely see improvement.
This..
same for Coaches and players, too…
It’s good that the Coaches have more patience than all the rest of us combined…——————-
Christmas continues tonight for the Football Pack…
I think we win!#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Nice post, Bill. And great discussion.
*Note: If I can get one of the actual creators of Wooden’s offense to break a State game down for us, I will pass it on.
Please do, CD.
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