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I also think there is good reason to believe that more in conference opportunity will open up in the near future, with all of K, Roy, Pitino, and Boeheim (and Larranaga) all likely to retire within the next 5 years, give or take. It’s hard for me to see any of those programs replacing those guys seamlessly. Gott has positioned our program to make a push for top 2-3 in the conference as those coaches turn over.
I know that Tau isn’t the first to posit this, but I completely disagree with this logic.
What this is saying is that State can’t move up in the conference and we have to wait until everyone falls back. All that would mean is that State would be at/near the top of a weakened ACC and would be in no better position wrt to the NCAAT than we are today.
If State can’t really compete in a strong ACC, then either fight for a change or learn to accept your current position. Waiting for people to retire serves no purpose whatsoever.
From BJD:
But even if you told me that MG would never grow beyond his current B+ level of performance…I’m not sure I would roll the dice.
You know the difference between an optimist and a pessimist? Experience!
I’m not ready to go through another coaching search either.I absolutely LOVE the league being strong. Steel that’s tempered in fire. Like VA says, if you can’t compete for the top of the league because it’s too strong, then the tourney will pose problems too.
Rick — the playing together part is important. This was the 1st and only year Cat/Lacey/Turner played together.
Teams not named Kentucky/Duke/Kansas etc. that are successful in the tourney do so in general on having experienced teams that have played together.
Go look at Verbal Commits — the cumulative impact of all those in the Sr. and Jr. columns that have left the program hurts.
What this is saying is that State can’t move up in the conference and we have to wait until everyone falls back.
I don’t think that is correct.
What was meant, or at least how I read it, is that the opportunity to surpass will most likely be greater while the competition goes though a change in leadership. I didn’t read it as ONLY possible during those periods.
I don’t see how anyone can disagree. Whether it be sports programs, political parties, or warring nations, that’s pretty much the way it is.
Regardless, in either case, it does not necessarily mean others fall back while the Wolfpack remains static. It could be a swapping of positions, especially if recruiting is directly effected. For example (exaggerating to make a point), 3 top 10 2020 recruits, who would have gone to u*nc or Duke if there were no coaching changes, instead choose NC State, with the continuity and known commodity of the coaching staff being the deciding factor.
Teams not named Kentucky/Duke/Kansas etc. that are successful in the tourney do so in general on having experienced teams that have played together.
Righto, as was put on display in UW vs UK.
I think one of the ways we move up in the ACC is by getting better talent than we can now because we will be competing with “Johnny Dawkins” and Little Ricky. It’s a better chance to get incrementally better. I think foose expresses it well.
“An optimist is never pleasantly surprised”
I didn’t read it as ONLY possible during those periods.
Ok, but that’s the way it reads to me:
I also think there is good reason to believe that more in conference opportunity will open up in the near future, with all of K, Roy, Pitino, and Boeheim (and Larranaga) all likely to retire within the next 5 years, give or take.
I see no mention of moving past anyone before the better coaches retire. But my main point is the same one that 1.21JW made with a ton of statistics…State and Gott have to improve if it is going to do substantially better in the NCAAT. Some are optimistic about the future and others are quite pessimistic. For now, I remain agnostic (and of course, sarcastic).
What was meant, or at least how I read it, is that the opportunity to surpass will most likely be greater while the competition goes though a change in leadership. I didn’t read it as ONLY possible during those periods.
I don’t see how anyone can disagree. Whether it be sports programs, political parties, or warring nations, that’s pretty much the way it is.
Regardless, in either case, it does not necessarily mean others fall back while the Wolfpack remains static. It could be a swapping of positions, especially if recruiting is directly effected. For example (exaggerating to make a point), 3 top 10 2020 recruits, who would have gone to u*nc or Duke if there were no coaching changes, instead choose NC State, with the continuity and known commodity of the coaching staff being the deciding factor.
Foose correctly interpreted my post. I said that Gott is still growing/improving AND there will be better opportunity. Not sure why that reads as if ONLY the opportunity created would allow us to move up. Regardless, foose phrased it better.
I definitely had the recruiting impact in mind. If all of those coaches depart those programs over the next 5 years, it creates an opportunity for Gott to improve his recruiting, since he is directly competing against all of those coaches for specific recruits year in and year out.
He still has to go land the top recruits, and there will still be heavy competition for them, but it can only help. Particularly K and Roy, since there is possibly a more pronounced effect on local top recruits. Any boost in recruiting would obviously apply not just in conference but would also stand to improve our position relative to all NCAA competition.
I know that Tau isn’t the first to posit this, but I completely disagree with this logic.
Also, which is the part you completely disagree with?
That the named coaches will likely retire soon? That those retirements creates more in conference opportunity?That those programs will not likely replace those coaches seamlessly? Or that Gott has our program positioned to move into the top 2-3 programs in the conference as that happens?
Or do you completely disagree with a strawman that was not in my post that you quoted? Something like, being top 2-3 in a weaker ACC makes us a stronger program? You’ll notice I didn’t post any such thing.
It’s just a reality – these Hall of Famers are going to retire. Boeheim going out very soon. Pitino, K, Roy next (not sure in what order). So the question is – are we poised to fill the void? Somebody has to fill it. Mine as well be us. Not sure what there is to debate there.
Hardly a straw man. You (and others) are speculating on improvement because of the decline in coaching within the ACC. But one of the problems with this line of logic is that there are strong programs and coaches all over the country. If State can’t move up nationally while those coaches you mentioned are still here, then there is no reason to think that their absence will somehow improve State’s position.
I’ve always said that the credit or blame for the results falls on the head coach’s desk…not who is sitting behind the big desk at other universities.
Rick — the playing together part is important. This was the 1st and only year Cat/Lacey/Turner played together.
Teams not named Kentucky/Duke/Kansas etc. that are successful in the tourney do so in general on having experienced teams that have played together.
Go look at Verbal Commits — the cumulative impact of all those in the Sr. and Jr. columns that have left the program hurts.
So you are changing the argument to ‘playing together’?
Quite the small window, we need experience that had played together for at least two years?
Any other qualification you need to add?Active NCAA men’s coaches in HOF (per Wikepedia):
Pitino
Williams
Boeheim
Larry Brown
KrzyzewskiActive NCAA men’s coaches projected to be in HOF (per ESPN 2013 article FWIW):
Calipari
Donovan
Izzo
Self“Others with a shot” per same article:
Crean
Beilein
Few
Sean Miller
Bo Ryan
Matta
Kruger
Tubby Smith
Buzz Williams
HugginsAnyone have others to add (or subtract) based on two additional years of information? I would say:
Tony BennettI would offer Gregg Marshall if he keeps this up.
VCU hires Chattanooga’s Will Wade, a former Shaka Smart assistant.
Hardly a straw man. You (and others) are speculating on improvement because of the decline in coaching within the ACC. But one of the problems with this line of logic is that there are strong programs and coaches all over the country. If State can’t move up nationally while those coaches you mentioned are still here, then there is no reason to think that their absence will somehow improve State’s position.
I have never said we can’t move up with those coaches in place. I said in the very post you quoted that Gott is still improving, which implies he can help us move up now. I have posted elsewhere that I expect a top 4 finish next season. That is moving up, and I don’t expect any of these coaches to be retired next season.
Since my post wasn’t clear, I will restate my view clearly. I think Gott has the program on an upward track. I think we will be a top 4 ACC program, maybe a top 3 ACC program, before the retirement wave hits. Unfortunately, it is hard for me to see our program surpassing Duke or UNC before K and Roy retire, unless UNC gets hit hard by the NCAA. But I think Gott can elevate our program past the others that have been ahead of us. I think we will be a consistent top 25 program by the time the retirement wave hits, and regularly in the hunt for top 4 seeds in the NCAA tournament.
When the retirement wave hits, that can only further boost the program, if only because of the possibility that it would boost recruiting, both because those other universities will have less capable recruiters to compete with and because being in the hunt to win the conference regular season and conference tournament and contend for good NCAA results every season should further boost our profile with prospective recruits.
Rick — no additions. As originally noted:
1) They don’t even have to be burger boys — they need to be good,
2) they need experience,
3) and they need to have played together.Wisky is the perfect example:
Top 7 players were
* RS senior
* Sophomore
* Senior
* Junior
* Sophomore
* RS senior
* SeniorFrom what I can tell, none are transfers. No freshmen.
Alabama didn’t release any contract details, but according to multiple reports, the deal is for six-years at just under $18 million. All contracts must be approved by Alabama’s board of trustees.
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2015/04/06/4227157/alabama-hires-avery-johnson-as.html
Gottfried’s model is unlike Wiscy’s (or UVA’s) or the Duke/KY model. Much more of a hybrid. Transfers are very much of his “secret sauce” formula, and I think that allows us greater flexibility and precision in building a roster.
We also aren’t a “system” school that depends on building up 3 stars and starting them as upperclassmen. Rather, we find “next tier” talent just a tick below the “one and done” types that the KY/Duke/KS all sign ad infinitum. We still get/go after a player or two like that, but there are still a ton of guys that are plenty elite in that next tier, you just have to do a good job identifying and signing them. Cat, Abu, Anya, and the Martins are good examples of this level of recruiting. Not “immediate NBA” talent, but that has some positives associated with it as well, yes?
Bingo, Beej. That is Gottfried’s MO.
It was,(I’m convinced)a grand plan to keep this unit intact by not over-recruiting 2015/16.
Note the lack of hysteria surrounding the issues of transfers.
Hell, trolls had half the ballclub packing bags, and the handringers fed right off that garbage.
P.S. I meant recruit over, not over recruit…Huge difference.
Can SFN afford an edit button for alternative devices? I’ll pay for damned thing,if not.
Dog – it certainly seems to have worked, as I don’t hear rumblings even from the Angel of Death camp. Nobody seems unsettled, which is a very, very good thing.
Transfers are also a good way to build the practice roster without adding immediate pressure to find the new guy(s) playing time. There’s a lot of upside to it, as long as you perform your due diligence AND ADD THE RIGHT PEOPLE. And ask yourself this – has MG brought in anyone as a transfer that has not been an excellent representative of NC State University?
Aside from Henderson’s BB gun incident, I guess. But that’s just dumb college kid shit. Not the new Kenny Drummond.
A big part of succeeding as basketball coach at NC State is understanding who we are, and who we are NOT. We are a VERY attractive destination in the next tier of programs behind the “one and done” chasers, which is a hard game to break into (and one which is no guarantor of success anyway) and certainly NOT the kind of place that needs to rely on gimmicks.
Herb being Herb.
“My family and I would like to thank Dr. (Michael) Crow, Ray Anderson, and the ASU community for allowing us to be Sun Devils. We enjoyed our time here and we are blessed to have made some special friends.
We stand together proud that our players have met the most critical standard we asked of them — to be respectful young men, qualified to earn their way in the world. Along the way, our young men also managed to have some terrific accomplishments on the court, as well. These young men, and our assistant coaches, who helped me find and teach them, are like family to me.
Given all the conversation about recruiting, I would ask that you don’t let your disappointment in me take away from or be a reflection on the talent of the young men that are currently on my team.
Given the progress we made with this relatively new group of players, they proved they are talented enough to win in the Pac-12. They also personify the personal character of the individual student-athlete that reflects so positively on the amazing trajectory Dr. Crow has this great institution traveling.
I wish ASU Basketball and your next head coach nothing but success going forward. It takes a community to win in sports today. Thank you to those who helped me build a community during my time here. It is my hope that you will continue your efforts to build the depth and breadth of that community support and help your next coach reach the expectations we all have for this program.
Thank you and Go Devils!
Herb Sendek
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