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The reason I love hanging out here to discuss nc state athletics is the high level of debating which takes place:
If you disagree with my view point then you’re wrong, because I’m right. Or you’re an idiot because you don’t agree with my POV, which is the only correct viewpoint.
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Remember, this is YEAR THREE of an absolute gut job of a rebuild. You have absolutely no standing to bitch about the quality of conference road wins. A lesser coach wouldn’t be getting them.
Football doesn’t get turned around on a dime, not unless one is left a heap of unmotivated talent. That was most assuredly NOT the case in West Raleigh.
BJD, I don’t think those of us who won’t equate beating weak teams, even on the road, is saying DD is a bad coach but more of the original statement that ‘progress’ has been made. I think it’s safe to say everyone has a different definition of progress. If the definition of progress is being better than 0-8 in the conference then sure, progress was made….last year.
2012: 7-6 (4-4) ACC Road: 1-3
2013: 3-9 (0-8) ACC Road: 0-4
2014: 8-5 (3-5) ACC Road: 2-2
2015: 6-3 (2-3) ACC Road: 2-1(FCS games excluded)
2012:
6 Wins: Opponents Record: 30-45 – 1 Team with a winning record FSU (12-2)
6 Losses: Opponents Record: 44-30 – 2 Teams with a losing record Tennessee (5-7), Virginia (4-8)2013:
2 Wins: Opponents Record: 10-14 – 0 Teams with a winning record
9 Losses: Opponents Record: 77-41 – 1 Team with a losing record Wake Forest (4-8)2014:
7 Wins: Opponents Record: 40-46 – 2 Teams with a winning record Georgia Southern (9-3), UCF (9-4)
5 Losses: Opponents Record: 44-30 – 0 Teams with a losing record2015:
5 Wins: Opponents Record: 17-28 – 0 Teams with a winning record
3 Losses: Opponents Record: 18-9 – 1 Team with a losing record Virginia Tech (4-5)There are obviously more games left to play in 2015 but as of right now, the only anomaly is 2013. I don’t see any tangible results. Just because the 2013 season set the bar as low as you can possibly get it doesn’t equate, IMO, to progress.
We must look at the big picture and not just dwell on the negative. Upgrades are being made in the program. Recruiting, facilities, and a blueprint for success is there. Louisville and VT were disappointments, but disappointments come before success. Our team is young and we are still building, we are fortunate to have Doeren. A lot of football is left this year, but even if it finishes with a 7-5 record we will be ok. Microwave results are simply unrealistic. The foundation for long term success is more important than a couple games or just this season.
I think progress is being made. However, sooner or later you find your ceiling… And that’s really all that’s out there isn’t it? Is Doeren’s “ceiling” a single 5 conference win season every 5 years or so with a typical season being 3 or 4 wins? (Which is exactly what our last 3 coaches were) or are we seeing the gradual, steady build of program that typically wins 5 conference game in a season with the occasional ceiling of 7-8 wins?
I firmly believe 90+% of the posters here support waiting it out to see – regardless of what happens the rest of this year.
Well, here is where I am. This season had more landmines for f-cking up than it had REAL opportunities for success. As such, in retrospect, it should have always been viewed as a “consolidation year.”
What we have done this year…is avoid the huge f-ckup. The giant step backwards. I mean, if we lost out, that would still be bad. But I really don’t see that.
2013 is not the anomaly. It was the inevitable reckoning. DY could have waited and let TOB eat that huge wad of shit (which he earned with 3 poor classes of 4 in the pipeline, including 1 dumpster fire), or she could swallow the hit that the new coach was sure to take, trust us to not be reactionary, and speed the recovery process by AT LEAST two seasons.
The kind of “talent” you saw on the field in 2013 should have answered every question the jackass media had about firing a coach who “all he did was win 7 games every year the right way.” A reckoning was coming. Having Vandy run circles around us in the bowl should have been a good hint.
We were way ahead of schedule in 2014. Kudos to Doeren and staff. Yes, an ACC schedule helps.
Back to the “opportunity” point. Go back to where I did levy criticism – the awful scheduling. We entered the Louisville game with them fully battle tested, and us having taken nary a punch. It showed. Then, we were punch drunk (apparently, as we wilted the first time VPI pushed back) in Blacksburg on a short week. But once again, we got our bye week, and pulled our shit together (even with injuries). Win, good effort against a team we simply have no change against physically, win.
That’s as good as we CAN do, under the circumstances. We didn’t have a “Goldilocks porridge” game. Shit, the only one of those we really have is the Holes! And a one game sample is hardly determinative, either way.
So once again, I look at other things. Like how he approached the Clemson matchup (as I wrote on the main blog). Again, we can’t know for sure his ultimate ceiling. Football is uncertain, and our place in the football universe is such that one had better get used to looking for long-term reason for optimism where you can. You’re looking for someone who fits, might stay here, and can give us pot odds. By showing the ability to be an outside the box strategic thinker (as all successful modern-era NC State coaches have been), I am fully on board with Doeren as someone to get behind and give a long-term, fair shot. Coaches, especially football coaches, have a maddening tendency towards conservatism (not in the political sense) that make them wholly unsuited to succeeding here. You can’t approach this job like it’s Ohio State, Texas, or UCLA. You need to be more aggressive and thoughtful than rolling out the ball, Guy Lewis-style.
Doeren is a man I would enjoy playing cards with.
Bjd – I agree with you on the scheduling take – and I brought up this before the season that it might cost us the game vs Louisville much like the scheduling cost us the unc-ch game in 2001. (Although that year the scheduling wasn’t nearly as bad as it was this year.)
I disagree with taking much positive away from Clemson game from a long term standpoint only because in dd’s 3 years here he has played very competitive games against our strongest home game opponent each year.
What really needs to happen is that we see that type of effort and imagination against our less talented opponents across the board. (It won’t help matters if UNC-ch starts building something over there.)
At this point, I am cautiously optimistic, coming into the season, I was very optimistic – a lot of things happened to create a challenging environment – but those typically happen in football.
All should note – game plans vs. Wake and BC were solid and worked to a tee. And I am definitely seeing progress on thst front..
State fans have insisted that progress/improvement was being made as long as I’ve been on the internet. I’m not saying that they are wrong now, just saying that I’ve heard the claims before and don’t have much to show for all of the alleged improvement.
Real improvement will produce meaningful wins. We ain’t there yet.
Real improvement will produce meaningful wins. We ain’t there yet.
I don’t think anybody is saying we’ve made it.
Louisville and VT were disappointments. That in and of itself is a sign of progress. We are red shirting 2 4-star recruits which IMO is also a sign of progress. 2 of the fastest players in the state are also red shirting. That we don’t have to play every decent freshman we have is IMO a sign of progress.
If you had to bet on or against Doeren, where would you put your money?
(One thing we have now that we didn’t have when Holtz and Sheridan were here is a Chancellor and AD who are committed to NC State athletics.)
Exactly Greywolf, the mistakes of the past are things we are learning from. Debbie has made a vast improvement in the athletics department. Consistency is what we are trying to achieve with the occasional legit chance to win our division. NC is becoming more plentiful with talented recruits, we need a grass roots movement to garner their attention. Many will want to stay close to home, providing us an opportunity to perhaps rise above mediocrity.
You boys shoudn’t worry too much about the neighbors building anything.
This… right here,right now, is it.
The individual game planning is another good point. As he gets more of his guys in the pipeline, Doeren seems more sure of himself as a coach, and/or more willing to “push buttons” with the chess pieces he’s got.
I think the plans for each game have been excellent since the bye.
Again, there are things to notice that I honestly believe are different than the general feel-goodisms of the past. I don’t really compare him to anyone we’ve had in the past because he’s very different.
Louisville and VT were disappointments. That in and of itself is a sign of progress
How so? You fo realize Va Tech is a shell of its former self, such that it’s time for the head man to hang it up. Lville, though talented, got off to a horrid start and is down by their standards. We’re still coming up 4th in the pecking order in the Atlantic, which is pretty much where we have always resided save a couple outliers.
This… right here,right now, is it.
One of the silver linings (if there is such a thing) of UNC’s success this year is that Fedora will certainly stay. If he stunk it up again, with a guy like Chizik now on staff, I could easily see where they make a move. Surely Chizik has better things in mind than to be the #2 man there. He is a heck of a coach and there will be suitors.
If we want to point to disappointment this year, I think we can point to three things:
1) Non-conference schedule that didn’t prepare us: That loss against Louisville was almost a foregone conclusion as a result. I had it as a L before the year. Hopefully we never see that kind of schedule again.2) VT debacle: That’s the one where had we not just laid down in the second quarter, taken care of business and walked out with a win, we’d all be pretty happy right now. We’d look at Louisville as a missed opportunity, but we’d still be sitting exactly where sane predictions would have had us at this point.
3) UNC’s performance this year: Fair or unfair, UNC’s record right now is something that probably is bothering the average internet poster who finds NC State’s season disappointing. They had UNC chalked up as a win in their predictions and now that game looks like a probable loss and a toss up at best. They look and see a hire at the DC position and thus believe that’s the reason suddenly UNC has a gaudy record. Instant gratification right? They’re missing that UNC has out recruited us for years, their OL looks quite good (at least what I’ve seen), their QB play is significantly improved, and they’ve got a very favorable conference schedule.
I agree that 2013 was as bad as it gets, but that TOB might have eeked out a couple of conference wins that year. I also agree that firing him before it was painfully obvious just how little talent we had was the smart move. We’d have been trying to sell a total rebuild, and my gut says DD didn’t look at the personnel as closely as he might later have wished that he had. Regardless, it was only going to get worse under TOB, and it was time to make a change.
I’m behind DD because I think he’s got 5-6 years here regardless. He’s Yow’s coach in the most important sport, and she’s going to back him. Politically that’s just where it is.
I do see signs that things are headed in the right direction. The RB talent pool alone this year was incredibly impressive. We’re picking up the speed across the board. The DL looks pretty good to me. The defense tackles well. We don’t kill ourselves with penalties. Special teams outside of FG kicking has been very solid. Conditioning looks good. We clearly looked bigger and stronger than Wake and BC, which couldn’t have been said in 2013.
My biggest concern for next year is really at QB. It’s important that we find a successor.
I’m with you on the QB thing. My pre-season overriding thought is that the roster overall was a year away from true competitiveness, and we’d be lamenting “what if Jacoby had just one more year” in 2016.
I agree that as a whole we will be stronger at most position groups next year. We just have an unknown at QB next year, perhaps we will be pleasantly surprised. I’d also like to see a consistent receiver emerge, I don’t really know what to make of our receivers.
Progress? You gotta know what you’re looking at to see it, or what you don’t see to know it’s not there. Any 6 year old can do an analysis of the single metric of W’s vs L’s.
BC’s defense is legit, or at least so says FSU and Clemson. Wake Forest is a house of horrors, or it was. The early schedule wreaked, but it was not crafted by design. The 2 deep is littered with high performing freshmen and sophomores, sans the consistency of an upper classman. There is even more talent wearing the redshirt.
It’s night and day if you’re looking in the cupboard. It’s night and day if you’re looking on the field. It’s night and day if you’re looking on the sideline. It’s night and day on the practice field.
Mixing it all together takes longer, especially with no pathfinders among the players. The results will be more tangible once the cupboards are stocked with players coaching players and players policing players.
The coaches will have completed part of their job once the players start doing it for them. Jacoby is a great leader and a calming force, but he’s still cutting his own path. And everyone knows it. The nonsense with Senior Thorton showed all to well this team still has some distance to go.
Ironically, what some are considering failure for this weekend is itself a sign of progress.
Take the Wolfpack and the points.
I do see signs that things are headed in the right direction. The RB talent pool alone this year was incredibly impressive. We’re picking up the speed across the board. The DL looks pretty good to me. The defense tackles well. We don’t kill ourselves with penalties. Special teams outside of FG kicking has been very solid. Conditioning looks good. We clearly looked bigger and stronger than Wake and BC, which couldn’t have been said in 2013.
It’s easy to overlook when it’s working , but you forgot the OL. Maybe the most impressive unit of 2015, thus far.
My biggest concern for next year is really at QB. It’s important that we find a successor.
I’m pretty sure we already have. It’s a matter of how steep is the learning curve.
That stat about only beating 1 P5 team is almost funny. If that’s all you want to look at, it makes us sound like we have one of the weakest programs in the conference. I doubt any of the teams that have to play us feels that way.
It is true we have been talking about making progress for a lot o’ years. But we have made it and it’s a never ending quest. We have had some great years…the Phillip Rivers years…Russell Wilson years…The Holts…many more on and on. Progress is like the stock market. It is never going to be a straight line up or down. There are going to be up and down years. But anyone who does not see progress in this years team is not looking. It’s not just about wins and losses. Keep doing what we are doing, the wins will come.
I’m in the “progress has been made” camp. The last decent run we had was driven almost exclusively by the fact that we had back-to-back NFL caliber QB’s. We had massive holes in other parts of the roster and they showed up big time once Glennon was gone and there was no Marcus Stone waiting in the wings. Making the transition from Brissett to McClendon will tell us a lot about how much DD has developed the program. The losses to both UL and VT were a huge disappointment. We should have split those games at the very least. Let’s let the season play out all the way before we do the full analysis.
The other harsh reality for us is that until our recruiting is a level or two better than it is right now, we play a 10 game schedule every year with a couple of exhibition games where we play the role of Cal State LA. Our first goal needs to be 5-3 in the conference. If we pick up some respectable OOC games and wins along the way we may have the opportunity to upgrade our talent enough to play a 12 game schedule every year.
I am in the progress is being made camp. However I think one thing that really hurts us is our style of play. We really miss Bo Hines this year. We don’t have any go to WR down the field who is consistent. We have tons of talent, but for us to take the next step we need consistent good QB play, and a solid WR a QB can rely on. When you watch us play, until the last few games we haven’t really thrown the ball downfield. I really like our defense and think they can be something special next year. A lot of solid players this year, if they take a step forward next year could be great.
Truth is after seeing what TOB did to recruiting, I am very happy with where we are. Furthermore as for schedule I think they have done a great job addressing that for the future.
Progress? You gotta know what you’re looking at to see it, or what you don’t see to know it’s not there. Any 6 year old can do an analysis of the single metric of W’s vs L’s.
And any idiot with a keyboard can claim that they see progress and predict future success based on virtually nothing. I’m not saying that you are wrong about progress, but if you use the dumpster fire that DD took over as your starting point, then you have set the bar pretty low. But in the final analysis, arguments about “progress” are pretty meaningless because “progress” without real “success” is not worth much. Herb certainly made progress over the Les years, but his progress hit a fairly low ceiling.
And for the claim that State has had periods of “great” years, how many years has State had more than 5 conference wins over the last two decades? I think the answer is “O”, which pretty much says that State HAS NOT had any great years. IMO, the year with the victory over ND in the Gator Bowl is the best year we’ve had since Sheridan….and I believe State finished fourth in the conference that year and jumped over two teams (UVA,
GT?, UMD) to get that bowl bid.PS. They keep score for a reason. In the end, wins and losses is all that really maters.
I think if you asked DD over a beer, he would say his biggest regrets this year are the inability to bring in a quality wide receiver, and losing Shad. Obviously losing Dayes and Bo Hines hurt a lot as well, but all programs lose players. I’m fairly sure the WR recruiting deficiency is the primary reason the WR coach was let go at the end of last year. Hopefully DD can bring in some high level recruits to catch the ball.
I just found what looks like a great site when searching for State’s ACC records:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/Here’s a summary of State’s ACC records from ’95-’14:
0-8…..1
2-6…..3
3-5…..7
4-4…..6
5-3…..3To claim that State has recently had some great years, you first have to redefine “great”.
Next Year’s QB? I think the hype out of camp was that the true freshman was pushing the Redshirt Freshman. I hope that’s because they both are ACC caliber. But they are DD’s type QBs so I trust they will be.
Of bigger concern is losing 3 starters off the O line. We will have the two right tackles back as sophomores, I assume one plays LT or LG. Tony Adams will be a Jr. I assume he takes the Center job. Bryce Kennedy, Garret Bradbury have had some starts and good game time experience but look out guys, this is the group taking the longest to rebuild and if the QB and O line don’t get it done, I can hear the squealing getting louder.
I think all other parts of the team are going to be damn good. But I’m pro DD because of his recruiting. I think he’s still learning as a coach and did not have the team and playbook ready for Lu and VT. But he’s a smart guy and will learn from it. I see the results of the depth everywhere but at O line, that’s what scares me for next year. But I’m gonna give the man more than next year to build the program. It’s will take years, and if we keep bowling, were on the right path. Out of Conference schedule is tougher from now on. Bowl eligibility will be harder.
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