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Coach Rick…
All I’m saying is the same thing I said during the season…
5 plays…. 3 on one end and 2 on the other end… in 10 games with the kids we had on the floor against quality competition….
is the “margin of error” between a “good” season and a “bad” one…or one extra kid — a 5MacStarOneAndDone kid on the roster…
Coaching kids to that level of focus and discipline over forty minutes and thirty games is the challenge every D1 Coach faces, including Caltucky…
Getting that extra one kid…
That’s also a crapshoot…As a Coach, I’m sure you can see my point…
Now if you want to call that “polishing”… go ahead…
I’d call it “just the facts”….:>}
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Tough first round for the Millers. I thought Dayton had a bad match up there.
Bad match up? Against Syracuse?? Syracuse was fortunate to hear their name called to even make the field.
One loss doesn’t change my opinion of Arch though.
It wasn’t just one loss for Archie. Dayton flamed out in their conference tournament as well. The double standards on here are just amazing to me.
Bill – while what you said is true – it’s true the other 4 seasons, he could have missed the tournament a couple of those years.
But he didn’t – scoreboard. This year – scoreboard. No one questions the good breaks… And when most people do the “what it’s” – they leave out the good breaks.
We have 16 years of data with gott as a head coach. No need to play that what if game. Wouldn’t life be easy if we just got Mulligans?
^… not talking ’bout GOTT, specificially… this time…
just exploding the label “polishing”….and trying to clearly articulate the challenge all D1 College basketball coaches face these days…
which also may explain, in some ways, the bracket-busting by double digit seeds in this years tournament…
if a Team get hot at the right time… they can go a good ways …
far beyond what their season record, RPI, KenPom, etc. might justify…
just by getting five plays a game right, instead of wrong….#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Bill – this doesn’t just apply to Gott, it applies to every coach who didn’t get the gold ring, every golfer who didn’t break 80 / par, or everyone that was an microsecond away from his / her goal.
… so since we’re in general agreement on this…
try this…
the coaching solution is NOT to change those five plays….
the coaching solution is get the fundamentals, physical and mental, right….In Baseball they say… If you do the little things right, the big things take care of themselves.
that said, what make’s today’s basketball different from any other major sport is the high turnover of players… some things a kid can’t learn in one or even two seasons… and most all 4and5MacStars are fundamentally weak in at least one area coming out of high school…
… which in a backwards way says a whole lot about why Anthony Barber should be in Red and White next season.
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Bill – agree 100%. This is why to be an effective coach these days you either have to be a dynamite recruiter, a great evaluator of the mental makeup and teacher or a great scavenger.
I think gott is a good scavenger, a decent evaluator and does a decent job identifying character. However, I do wonder if his lack of emphasis / attention to detail / his coaching philosophy limit his ceiling in this or any other era.
bill: I was thinking along the lines of your polishing when you look at see 6 ACC teams in the Sweet 16. Granted, 1/2 of those were Big East teams, but I digress on that point. I couldn’t tell if the teams really were improving in conference play or they were insulated playing one another with a pretty mediocre body of work outside the conference (resulting in a weak conference RPI). VT’s late push really, really made me suspicious that it was the latter. Looks like it was the former.
HeelH8r: Arch’s squad had as many or more injuries than we did this year. They lost another guy with about 3-5 games left in the regular season (sort of like Freeman for us) and that was where they kind of ran out of gas. They still won their conference and had to win their last two including beating VCU the last game of the regular season to do it. That was clutch.
Why I felt that Syracuse was a bad match up for them wasn’t about the injuries, coaching, etc.. It’s more about how smaller teams that don’t shoot well have historically done against Syracuse, their length and the zone. I would argue few coaches in America recruit to system better than Jim B.. I don’t particularly like him, but he doesn’t get 5 star talent and a ton of McDonalds AAs. He gets a bunch of long kids that fit that zone and tries to generate just enough offense to win while taking the air out of the ball.
Small teams can upset Syracuse, but they have to be the type that shoots well. With respect to Dayton, they’ve not shot the 3 ball well this year. They were winning on defense, grinding and turning turnovers into points. That is a tough way to beat Syracuse, particularly in the tournament when teams take the air out of the ball reducing possessions (which is exactly what offensively challenged Syracuse wants) AND the whistle disappears (which really hurts the smaller team).
This is the same Syracuse team that just rolled over MTSU (who beat MSU). Clearly they were decent. Sweating it out leading up to the tournament seemingly motivated them. Dayton looked a bit worn out to me, particularly down the stretch. The season had kind of caught up to them.
Call them excuses. Call them double standards. Maybe those are fair statements.
If they are, then it’s perfectly fair to call out the two teams faced similar adversity and relative to their peers Dayton finished first in their league while NC State finished 13th. It’s also fair to call out in year 5, the regular season finishes for Dayton have ticked fairly consistently, steadily and in an iterative fashion upward against their peers. For NC State, they’ve gone steadily down. The more Arch implements his program with his kids, the consistently better they are. Can the same be said for Gott?
Rye – I will say this – and I like arch too – but especially in today’s game – if you ain’t recruiting shooters that’s on the coach
chop: I tend to agree with you about what makes a successful college coach. It is seemingly either:
– Great recruiter: Calipari / Sean Miller / Self mold
– System guy who develops players in their system and then retains them: Bennett / Wisconsin / Beiline / Syracuse / Roy (vomit) approach
– Motivator who can can get the most out of the cards they are dealt: K and Izzo get great cards, but their teams are typically mentally tougher than their opponents. Greg Marshall, Smart and Few are guys who do this with lesser talent.My question though is whether this is really any different than it has ever been?
As for our coach, he’s seemingly in the recruiter bucket. On the surface it appears to be a good match because of our built in advantages in recruiting. I actually think it’s a poor pairing though unless we can somehow get lucky and get over the hump into elite level classes. NC State (other than during the Les restrictions) has always been able to recruit at a top 20 level due to many of those intangibles. Gott’s not bringing something to the table that we don’t already have there (outside of year #1).
I tend to think we’re better off with a system guy. Ironically HWSNBN was the right style of coach. It was just his style of play and weak mental game that held him back. If NC State had Tony Bennett or the coach at TAMU (there’s doing iterative building with virtually zero brand), then look out.
coaches might be just like wives…
pick two out three and live with it….
ya’ll ain’t gonna find one who does all three…and it’s too damn expensive to change….
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Haha – nice bill. Definitely some truth to that..but using the wife analogy – I don’t know if I want to marry someone whose husband already kicked her to the curb, especially if ethical shortcomings played a role in it.
But then again, once you have tied the knot – best not to bail for petty differences
” Ironically HWSNBN was the right style of coach.”
Maybe so but he was run out on a rail. Technically not fired but did see it coming. Gott might not be the man to lead the Pack to the promised land but we could do much worse (and have). He has earned another year IMO.
All this talk of polishing reminds me of road trips with the girlfriend. The trifecta.
Gott has earned some degree of benefit of the doubt. I do believe this year is just a blip on the radar. We shall see.
chop: I tend to agree with you about what makes a successful college coach. It is seemingly either:
– Great recruiter: Calipari / Sean Miller / Self mold
– System guy who develops players in their system and then retains them: Bennett / Wisconsin / Beiline / Syracuse / Roy (vomit) approach
– Motivator who can can get the most out of the cards they are dealt: K and Izzo get great cards, but their teams are typically mentally tougher than their opponents. Greg Marshall, Smart and Few are guys who do this with lesser talent.All coaches must do all three of these things, but it is rare that a coach is great at all of them… those are your HOF caliber coaches. Gott is a good recruiter and a good motivator. Not as good at fitting players to system and retaining them. But this mix has been good enough overall that he has the highest ceiling and highest floor of any coach we’ve had since V.
I would certainly rather have an elite coach of the caliber of many of the names listed here (Calipari, Sean Miller, Izzo, K, etc.). But I don’t see any reason to believe that we will get a coach of that caliber if we fire Gott. IMO the higher percentage play is to stick with Gott and hope he breaks through into a higher tier of recruiting and that lifts the program.
Even in a down year, Gott’s team was above average in offensive efficiency. This is a known attribute. His teams are always pretty good on that end. The problem is that he doesn’t appear to acknowledge his weaknesses and try to offset them by using different schemes or systems or teaching and/or recruiting to said changes.
I’m fine with not wanting to play Bennett ball, but there are other ways to play defense that can be effective. He does none. Speeding up the pace of play could arguably adversely impact scoring in the half court, but I’m not convinced. If you’re good at offensive execution, you should still be good at offensive execution with more possessions.
On the defensive end, it would really benefit him by recruiting a bench and utilizing it when he has one. Throw in some full, half, or quarter court press, or trap, and/or a mix of the above, not just when you’re in desperation mode, but regularly. We’re not only bad on defense; we generate very few turnovers or easy baskets. Speed up the game. It should help lure and keep more players, if you can show that they’ll get to play, and there’s no doubt that it would benefit us on offense. Can’t hurt on defense.
IMO the higher percentage play is to stick with Gott and hope he breaks through into a higher tier of recruiting and that lifts the program.
The problem with this theory is this recruiting class was supposed to be the one that sent us to the higher tier. Two top five players in NC, one of which is a State fan and they were a “package”. The rumors were abounding about others joining those two but alas it was not to be. And that is why I finally decided Gott is not going to win a title here. He had a hanging curve ball and could not hit it out of the park. He just does not seem interested or able to address his shortcomings.
I’m glad Dayton had a meh year. We needed Arch not to be a “hot name” this April. And OF COURSE he’s still learning and developing as a coach.
Newsflash. We generally ain’t in the market for finished articles.
Speaking of which, I felt nostalgic yesterday watching what might be the best coached team I saw all weekend. Oklahoma. Remember when we profiled Lon Kruger during our “B List” series after the Calipari thing fell apart 10 years ago? Reception was pretty meh at best. Oh, for 20/20 hindsight…
The problem with this theory is this recruiting class was supposed to be the one that sent us to the higher tier. Two top five players in NC, one of which is a State fan and they were a “package”. The rumors were abounding about others joining those two but alas it was not to be. And that is why I finally decided Gott is not going to win a title here. He had a hanging curve ball and could not hit it out of the park. He just does not seem interested or able to address his shortcomings.
Understand. But being as close as he seemingly was this year illustrates that there is still a chance he can break through into a higher tier of recruiting. I’m not saying I am sure he will do it, but I think it would be foolish for anyone to take the stance that it is impossible for him to do it.
IMO if we fire Gott, it is much more likely we end up with a Les/HWSNBN/Lowe caliber replacement than a guy who will be better than Gott. I like Archie, but there is absolutely no guarantee that he would be an upgrade over Gott.
The grass is often not greener, as we discovered after Les and after HWSNBN. (Though IMO it was still the right move to replace both of them.)
IMO the higher percentage play is to stick with Gott and hope he breaks through into a higher tier of recruiting and that lifts the program.
Since every year is a different story, trends in recruiting are of questionable value. But Gott’s recruiting is certainly not trending up. So holding out hope for a dramatic improvement in recruiting (and thus results) seems more like wishful thinking than a strategic decision (and quite reminiscent of the HSSS).
Given what Gott accomplished in his first four years, you would have to be an idiot to think that he is suddenly in hot water over one bad year…especially since he got a pay raise last summer. The bigger questions are:
– How much improvement will we see next year?
– Will the 15/16 season only be a “once-in-a-blue-moon” disaster?
– How many bad years will we suffer through before Yow is forced to make a change?
– How does the fact that DY’s and Woodson’s contracts both end in 2019 factor into any decision?The phrase “higher percentage play” is interesting and difficult to reach a consensus. For instance what does the following list of coaches have in common and what are the differences:
Bob Staak
Pete Gillen
Skip Prosser
Thad Matta
Sean MillerWhat they have in common is they were all head coaches at Xavier before leaving for bigger programs. Any basketball fan should be able to point out the key difference. Since State is unlikely to sign a sure thing, a basketball coaching search will always have a certain amount of risk. The last question is:
-When is it worth taking that risk to move beyond what you have?. Remember when we profiled Lon Kruger during our “B List” series after the Calipari thing fell apart 10 years ago?
Wasn’t Turgeon also on that list?
I think there are three ways that I probably differ from the more “reasonable” posters:
1) My view of the initial hire: Of the fish seemingly in play, we were kind of in the middle on what we got (and maybe at the bottom if you factor in our built in advantages). The letter is one of the worst PR moves I’ve seen at that level, and didn’t inspire confidence in a hire made ~ 24 hours later. Also, I followed Gott a bit during his Alabama stint and had a position on him already formulated.2) I don’t view this year as the blip. I viewed the blip as year #2. This year was strike 2 for me and I don’t see us getting better. I see us getting worse.
3) I have seen enough for Arch to know that we need to get him now so we don’t have a Marshall / Witchita State situation happen. Imagine the difference in trajectory for NC State basketball had we hired Greg Marshall as opposed to Sid or Gott?
– How much improvement will we see next year?
As of right now, I expect next year to be in line with Gott’s first four seasons, and possibly the best season yet since he arrived. That is assuming Cat leaves but everyone else returns. If so, Gott won’t be going anywhere.
If next season is another losing season like this one, he’ll either be gone or on a red hot seat (not sure if we can afford to buy him out next season…?). I just don’t see this happening unless we lose multiple players unexpectedly (whether to leaving the program or Henderson-like major injuries).
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