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I think any talk right now of firing Doeren is ridiculous.
I’m all for holding coaches responsible — but within reason.
We have to be careful to operate within the constraints of our reality: We’re a lot closer to becoming Kansas or Maryland than Clemson or Ole Miss.
So firing a good coach — one of the hot names when he was hired in 2012 and who inherited (unfortunately) a lower-tier Power 5 program — because he hadn’t turned it around completely after three years could be disastrous.
We’re just not in any position now to do that and expect to upgrade. What’s the expectation — The next guy would have to win immediately? At some point we have to admit Doeren needs the chance to develop some stability
That said, if we’re 0-8 again, I’ll admit it’s a tough defense.
This is my feelings in a nutshell. DD is here for a while. He inherited a complete dumpster fire from TOB. He has a lot of rebuilding to do and must be given the time to do so. However, he does not have a track record for rebuilding programs.
Nonetheless, to not expect some criticism after the last two egg layings is arrogant and unrealistic.Good points here. Depth is still a serious problem. As is the overall quality of the OL and the secondary. Right now, these are operating as fatal flaws we have not been able to gameplan or “find an extra gear” elsewhere to get around (like we did late last year).
I’m not on the dump DD wagon just yet. I am disappointed in the season so far, specially how the loses played out. Losing at home to the birds wasn’t a shock as much as how we lost at Blacksburg. The team looked more like an Amato coached team that DD. Take away two series and some bone head defensive penalities and outcome at VT may have been dramatically different. The two series we went 3 and out while starting on the 10 yrd line or less was a killer that got VT rolling in the 2 quarter. Our poor kicking game helped magnify the field change. Throw in the penalities that would have been a 3 and out for VT but rather gave them first downs plus 15 yrds and one can see how this spiraled out of control into VT favor quickly. Throw in the injury and it goes on into the second half. I do believe better play calling on O would have helped side the spiral. Point being we sort of did ourselves in at VT more than anything. Games like this happen, things seem to go from bad to worse on a few key series or calls. Two missed calls and one reversed face mask against VT was also a killer IMO. What this team/staff does from here on out is more concerning that the two loses.
Good points here. Depth is still a serious problem. As is the overall quality of the OL and the secondary. Right now, these are operating as fatal flaws we have not been able to gameplan or “find an extra gear” elsewhere to get around (like we did late last year).
Anyone know how the recruiting is going on OL and secondary? Talent is what will make it better. I do not follow recruiting so does anyone know if the talent level is improving? I can guaran-dang-tee DD is working harder at it than TOB did.
we have not been able to gameplan or “find an extra gear” elsewhere to get around (like we did late last year).
Some if not most of the “extra gear” at the end of last year can be traced to a drop off in competition from the middle of the season. Here’s how last season ended according to Sagarin (noting that State’s Final Ranking was 48).
W – SYR – 97
L – GT – 12
W – WF – 125
W – UNC – 77
W – UCF – 58^ We are currently 64 and play WF 109, Clemson 14, BC 113, FSU 11, Syracuse 38, and Carolina 43 the rest of the way. (I’m shocked Syracuse is 38). 3-3 looks like the most likely outcome to me.
My preference is always to hire coaches with proven track records building and sustaining programs. I’m less impressed with those who inherit programs. It’s like wealth. Good if you inherit it and grow it or maintain it. Even better if you build it yourself.
I like Doeren and Co. I hope he’s successful. But I think the model at NCSU from past successful staffs, even in different eras, is clear. You must win the in-state recruiting battle, be able to find some diamonds in the rough, and get enough talent out-of-state. Similarly, you must beat the in-state teams. You also must be willing to play a competitive nonconference schedule. High School players appreciate it and it helps recruiting. You must also win. Winning helps build and maintain recruiting momentum. If you can’t win the games against the lower and mid-tier teams in your league, then you’ll suffer. You only have so much time to do this in today’s landscape of big time sports. The concern in Year 3, I think, is whether we’ve moved enough in those directions. I don’t know.
I’ve read through the posts, some twice, and most make sense — under normal conditions. Little mention is made of suddenly losing one of the senior leaders, Shadrach Thornton. Think about how it was for you at work during the time leading up to a divorce or right after you suddenly lost your dad or spouse.
Suddenly losing Shad is a big deal to his teammates. It will take more than a day or two to work through the grief process. Shad ain’t coming back. It will take time to work though this. Some of you will dismiss this notion but it is as real as a heart attack.
Hopefully the four weeks prior to the Wake game will be sufficient. This is the thinking of someone pretty high up on the food chain at NCSU athletics. She knows from personal experience how this can affect you.
My preference is always to hire coaches with proven track records building and sustaining programs.
Bo Rein didn’t have that, and he was the best coach in NC State football history.
WOW….what great insight. I watched the “Bo Rein….the Coach you never KNEW…” or whatever….it was the SEC doc on Coach Rein. I also remember the day that his plane veered off course and listened to Bob Inskify (sp?) on WRAL follow it the next morning.
It was a horrific loss for the Sports WORLD….as was Payne Stewart’s death from the same aircraft malfunction.
Holtz was “flamboyant”….or at least that is the way that I remembered him. He had a quick wit….not on a par with Jimmy V….but good. His protege was BO REIN…..who got the job after Louis left….
Louis was also a “goal driven” individual. When he graduated, he got a job at USC (of Spurrier fame) and when he got there….THEY FIRED THE COACH. His new wife was an elementary (school) teacher. She got a job and supported the family.
Louis (as Paul Harvey said), stayed home and contemplated his future. He wrote out a list of “goals” or perhaps a “bucket list”. He had such items as “Coach Notre Dame”. Win a National FB Championship. Take off and land on an Aircraft Carrier. Most notably missing, when his exhausted wife finally got a chance to review what had been preoccupying him for several weeks, was “FIND A JOB”
He DID find a job….and the rest is history. We have not, I think, had a mix of he and Bo since then.
BUT, if you read about Jimmy V…..he was also a GOAL person. He often wrote down GOALS on notecards….He would carry them. Pam Valvano said that when she went through V’s clothes after his death….she found several of the cards with phrases such as “Find a cure for Cancer” and other motivational items.
Thanks for bringing up coach Rein and Holtz…..Coach Doeren is not that personna….but if you watched the original Coach’s show this year….his pep talk to the team was one of the most motivational speeches that I have ever heard.
Maybe he needs to dust it off…..I kept that DVR program….and Debbie Yow, in an email, said it was one of the most inspirational things that she had ever heard and the recruits (at a dinner) reacted very positive when they showed the video.
Coach D needs a little time to find his space and his path. I have NO doubts about him…..
Brer’ ‘Roo …
Nice
That’s the way it was…
And that’s the way it is…
And that’s the way it will be.Just one thing…
Doeren strikes me as the kind of guy who could spend ten or twenty years in the same place…
No way that was Lou…#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!BotB,
Can’t argue….
BUT, AD Yow has stated she plans to be here through 2020 (retiring at age 70). Coach D’s contract was extended in February through 2019. So, he is still going to be under the watchful eye of AD Yow.
I trust that if he does not live up to our or her expectations….that appropriate action will be taken….and that action, is the FURTHEST thing from or on her mind now.
Personally, I wondered if he would a candidate for her job. He seems to have the demeanor that could make the transition……Many don’t….ask Jimmy V….
BUT, I do not know what his long range career plan or bucket list is….
Were we better off when Lou excelled and packed his duffle and left….and his protege, Bo, did the same thing the same thing? Had he not been on that particular recruiting flight and been in NC….what would our fate have been?
Life and College Athletics are a bit different now…..certainly is NOT the way it was….
At this point, we simply don’t know. But one thing is certain, it’s crazy to hire a young head coach and fire him for performa bynce when it doesn’t fall below – absolutely 100% pathetic.
Making this more complicated is the fact that he had the first winless conference team that I have ever seen at NC state and he followed that up with a second season that showed promise, but her was still 3-5.
I think for this year, we have to see what the team does out of the bye week. Are we rejuvenated and sharp? Or are we do we continue to have the temperament we’ve shown thus far – an inability to overcome bad breaks?
There is plenty to be concerned about but all we can do is wait and hope it gets better because in a situation like this, he has to be given a chance unless things get incredibly bad. Unfortunately, we aren’t quite out of those woods yet though I expect we get out of them on the 24th.
‘Roo…
As best I remember… Lou did not leave because he excelled…
He left because he outgrew the school… certain political incidents notwithstanding…In not so similar ways… Valvano “left” because the school did “grow” with Valvano… which is not to say that Valvano would not have benefited from stronger top level managerial guidance… as it is certain that he would have and his boss was a disaster…
Now by most all accounts… it appears that we have the top people on the same page for the first time in a very long time…
much like the days of Dr. Caldwell and Willis Casey and their Coaches.Setting short term thinking aside …
I like the way we look longterm… and I can’t remember saying that in a long time…That coupled with the “Story that never ends — we are now in year six, I think – over in Orange County…
makes me smile…#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Choppack, how refreshing. There are still sensible posters who have not either fired the coach or put him in the HOF.
^Holtz and Rein inherited a far better situation than Doeren. A few of Edwards’s last teams were arguably some of the our best. Aside from the one Michaels year, the program was in pretty good shape. Not sure you could say that when Doeren arrived. There was a far better track record with Holtz as well. Not with Rein, as a head coach, but I’ll take CD’s word and others that he was a can’t miss.
Nothing in my previous post should be taken as a knock on Doeren. I think he’s a good one. But the current landscape requires improvement in wins and continued momentum on the recruiting trail. It’s a Catch 22. If you continue to lose to teams in your tier, then the recruiting is eventually going to tail off. If you’re trying to gain ground, you either have to recruit better or outcoach the opponent, or both. X’s and O’s and Johnnies and Joes.
Proof of turning a program from bad to good is simply a better measuring stick for me. I think there’s more to it than that, of course, and there are certainly plenty of examples to the contrary.
Lou inherited:
The entire offensive line.
Drueshel,Yost,Everitte,Bradbury,Sitterly.
TE Harvey Willis
WO Kenny,Lester
RB Burden,Young,Hooks,Fritts
QB ShawThe Entire starting D, too. Including punt returner extraodinaire,Mike Stulz.
Check your history and you will see a veritable cacophony of All-ACC and All-Americans.That [Hakim Jones injury] is when the game turned. Pratt is not ready, not sure he ever will be. There’s a reason why a 6’3? 234 lb sophomore safety hasn’t been getting much meaningful playing time, and it’s not because he doesn’t have the physical tools. He was immediately abused, including VT’s first TD. He not only made mistakes on 3 of their big plays in the 2nd quarter, but he took out teammates while doing it.
I don’t think this is getting enough attention. Without the injury, State beats VT. That’s not to excuse the loss, however.
Doeren and Haynes discussed this themselves on Doeren’s radio show last night. I don’t like to call out specific student athletes by name, but I emailed in a deftly worded question regarding the injury and subsequent play at the position and the associated issues on D in the 2nd quarter.
Although I did not hear it answered in the Q&A part of the show, Doeren directly addressed it later, mentioning Pratt by name, saying that Pratt was unprepared, embarrassed, and referenced previous practice habits that were left wanting.
The detrimental effect was compounded because that position is the “QB” of the defense and Pratt’s unpreparedness and confusion, his delays, and failure to make the right calls, had the expected results on the entire defense.
Doeren went on to say that Pratt recognized this as a wake up call and felt he let team down. DD used it as a teachable moment about practicing the correct way and always being prepared.
Anyway, wanted to share to highlight the effect of the injury for those truly at a loss for what happened Friday. It doesn’t explain the offensive woes, but it was the catalyst of the change in Big Mo’ that led to the 21 point 2nd quarter.
I also shared to note that those who can see beyond the obvious tend to have valid contributions to share. Given our similar but different backgrounds, Ive come to accept that if CD and I both see the same thing, it’s generally what is.
Choppack, how refreshing. There are still sensible posters who have not either fired the coach or put him in the HOF.
I get the hyperbole, but that’s a strawman.
‘Foose, I saw tbe Pratt take, and chose Gallaspy in return.
Vital, vital information that most commentators here surely recognize.
foose: I noticed all the same about when Jones went down and Pratt came in. That’s when we went from controlling them pretty well to the defense seemingly falling apart for 21 quick points. Big mo swung fast then……..
It kind of shows you where the program is at talent wise. We lose one guy, and the whole thing quickly unravels.
Now that doesn’t explain what happened on offense……… Shad’s suspension has been a distraction. I’m sure the guys are down about it. It seemed like the RBs missed some blocks in pass protection that maybe Shad picks up. I can buy that in game 1, but in game 2, we should have figured out how to scheme accordingly.
We knew coming into the season that Shad might not play this year. We played two games without him. It shouldn’t have THIS big of an effect.
Really, the bye couldn’t have come at a better time. We’ve got a lot of things to fix with all four units (offense, defense, ST and coaching). We also need to get some guys healthy (OL seems banged up to me, and Jones looked like a huge loss).
I’m with ya, CD. I trust you to quickly counter if you see me missing.
Once Gallasby learns to quickly read and hit the hole, his effectiveness will multiply. I first noticed that in one of the early games at home when he kept missing on the goal line. One miss, in particular, was very, very obvious.
And to all, I was offering my Pratt observations, in part, because I was at the game closely watching for my geek like nuances. A lot of the telling parts of what I saw was did not appear on TV. The between play, pre-snap signaling, body language and confusion was very telling.
^About Pratt, I know there was originally some conversation about moving him LB. He has the frame and speed, and there’s not a question about his athleticism. Are we all in on him at S?
Are we all in on him at S?
Don’t know. But we are deep at LB. Curious to see how he responds after last week though. From DD’s comments last night, I take it he’s talented, but was perhaps a little immature in his prep and dedication.
DD seems to think he’s been cured of that. Knowing you let your teammates down, especially on such a stage, tends to do that. More so than anything else. The film review must have been embarrassing for him, extremely. From the sole perspective of Pratt’s development, last Friday may, may, turn out to be the most significant event in his college career.
We’ll see.
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