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I pushed and prodded for more info, and here’s what I think (80% confidence level, combo of intel, gut, and Occam’s Razor):
I believe that had: (i) NC State adequately addressed Arch’s concerns about the athletic department OR (ii) Indiana not opened up, THEN we had a better than 50/50 shot to make him our coach.
I also believe that DY made sure she signed Keatts before Dayton tipped off to make sure she never had to speak to Arch. That wasn’t coincidence.
Yes, I do blame her for signing Keatts without talking to others. It was a classic selfish “dick move” – made Big Pig happy (and her retirement parade tour easier by rational deduction), and kept there from being any possible “no” in the wind.
What it did NOT do is make sure we explored all possible ceiling opportunities for NC State long-term. But that didn’t exactly line up with DY’s motivations, now, did it? Basic human nature. Not being proactive, NC State didn’t see or consider it. Penny wise and pound foolish, they saved $1.5M in not firing Yow, but committed $15M guaranteed to a completely unproven Keatts.
That’s my case, in a nutshell.
Also, did you know the daytime bartendrix at PR looks much like Zoe Baird from House of Cards?? Me likey.
BJD: Good to see you posting, even if it is a brief moratorium. You are one of the reasons that I’m at this site.
You are closer to this than I am, but my take was we knew well before hand Archie’s position based on the timing. I personally believe that we knew Archie wasn’t really interested. When viewed through that lens, the timing makes perfect sense.
If Archie is asking for a change in AD, then to me it comes across as one of those requirements that you lay out when you want the other side to say no. It reads like “I’ll take your job if you pay me $5M and you fire yourself…………” Those aren’t really reasonable, good faith negotiation points. One can say though that NC State didn’t meet requirements, and NC State can get the hint that the candidate isn’t interested in coming.
I think that talking about AD’s is an excuse. The AD trying to hire you obviously must like you. If you are winning, that next AD is going to like you. The coach on a 5, 6 or 7 year deal that is paying 3-10X the salary of the AD has way more leverage than the AD. There’s no real guarantee beyond tomorrow. Bogus argument, particularly when the AD is going to have ~ 2 more years in her tenure and that coaching contract was going to be 5-7 years.
I think that talking about AD’s is an excuse. The AD trying to hire you obviously must like you. If you are winning, that next AD is going to like you. The coach on a 5, 6 or 7 year deal that is paying 3-10X the salary of the AD has way more leverage than the AD. There’s no real guarantee beyond tomorrow. Bogus argument, particularly when the AD is going to have ~ 2 more years in her tenure and that coaching contract was going to be 5-7 years.
Precisely.
First off, the dad is a douche and drama queen. No reason to bash State after his son got a great job, so he likely doesn’t have a lick of sense. Secondly, Arch will have a tougher audience at the place he chose, so dads comments really don’t make much sense.
I believe we are still paying for Sendek’s desert run.
The Millers never won anything here and Archie really was not very good other than an occasional completely wide open half court 3.
I can’t imagine ever having to fire that clan as they would never cease to run their mouth. Good riddance. Hope this is the last of the Sendek curse.
Wanted to add this is all likely about not liking our donors who ran off “John Wooden” Sendek.
BJD95 do you think it possible that Yow heard that the IU position was going to come open maybe from the search firm and acted proactively. I also am curious about the intel you collected, did it indicate that the search firm did not put out any feelers too Archie’s people?
I have no insider information but I suspect the search firm was there to do two things:
1) Dig up the dirt on Keatts. We couldn’t afford a third straight hire with off court issues.2) See if any of the two line candidates were interested. See if there were other two line candidates that were unknown but interested.
A firm isn’t needed to go from Archie to Keatts. We have a pretty good idea how to get in touch with those two. 😉 It also wasn’t needed to get Greg Marshall’s magic number.
BFD95,
If you can query the “Dark State” again and get some additional intel, I would like to know the following.
Did Wendell Murphy and a group of OTHER well heeled DONOR$ organize their “club” and commit to helping out with Gottfried’s Buyout. THAT was the scenario laid out for me by a well and high placed “Club” official for removing Coach DD.
You are aware that such only happens infrequently and that Bobby Purcell has to be at arms length as any WPC participation in a Coach’s “Benefits or remuneration” violate the NCSU BOT revisions to the WPC Charter….
SO, the comments that I picked up and were verified by others was that a “One Time” Entity or committee was going to “Buy Out” Coach Doeren which would allow AD Yow to pull the pin. Coach DD pulled out a few rabbits of his own (must have been coached by Gottfried) and Debbie made the call NOT to remove him from command. THUS, the folks with names on buildings and such did not have to spend their “committment”
NOW, the BB season took a turn so bad for the worse that FB looked really GREAT. My question for your sources is…Did the same donors pony up for Gottfried’s removal.
The donation directly to the AD Budget was to be “channeled” into a BO account and NOT the general revenue or budget.
SO, if that happened….then it would be logical to me that these donors WOULD have a hand in the selection process.
We DO know (UNC TGU History 101), that BOT Bob Winston and two other high ranking Rams Club members did the preliminary interviews with Butch Davis and negotiated what the Rams Club would do to entice the Butcher. After he agreed, then BOT Bob called Dickie (Tassel Loafers) Baddour and said….Call this number. Hire this guy. Pay him this amount. We will kick in the rest…..and the deal was done.
I would think that Mr. Murphy was NOT as dictatorial as that….as Debbie Yow is a “9” AD compared to Baddour (who was often compared to Fowler) as a “2”.
BUT, when you pony up the big bucks, folks OFTEN ask….”got any ideas?”. Sort of like how a Political PAC or Lobbyist works…
As several have pointed out….when you fund things, you usually DO get to participate in the decision making progress.
Just curious as to what the insiders say about the “future donations”…
OTOH, it might be time to cremate the remains of the deceased equine and quite flogging the lifeless corpse….
Thanks,
BJD: Like ryebread, I too look forward to your comments on here. I read far more than I post.
I will be curious to see how Arch does with Indiana’s resources, as I’m not quite convinced his performance in Dayton made him the end all be all.
Bjd – good to see you back and posting.
I think the Don Henley song “Boys of Summer” applied in this case. Us fans were apparently pining for someone that we had a strong connection at one time. What happened happened – and the school went one way, Arch went another. Drove by the house, and there’s someone who obviously moved on. At least, that’s what the tea leaves said…Will this go in history like Fowler’s infamous pizza slice with calapari? The Rick Barnes lowball offer?
Who knows. Perhaps another way to look at it is the potential impact of negativity long term. When Arch was here it did get ugly. And while coaches are 100% fair game, the general rule should be to avoid going after the student athletes. I think our largest site does a lousy job of policing that stuff, but regardless, it certainly doesn’t help. Personally, I think Fowler was due the lion’s share of the blame, but again, those kids on the ground floor likely saw it differently. If they respected and admired Sendek – they probably don’t remember the times too fondly. If they had the opposite of a more nuanced view – perhaps they totally understand the fans frustrations.
Continuing with the “one who got away” analogy. I think most state folks thought we left it with Archie on good/decent terms. Now, some are blaming his family for poisoning the well. But, it’s now not happening – ever – barring something unforseen.
Me, I believe this happened for a reason. For the first time in a long time we chose a successful coach who wants to be here and believes we will be great again. Hopefully, we will look at the cold shoulder from Archie’s camp as the best thing that happened to us since Morgan Wooten turned us down.
chop: I’m with you. The sun rises tomorrow and we’re moving forward. I wish Archie the best in his next endeavor.
Unlike our last two hires I think that this one actually has a chance at succeeding. Gott had an okay four years and two nice tournaments and those exceeded my expectations. I never thought he was going to do anything more than implode, which he finally did. Sid was arguably the worst head coach in NBA history, had zero college experience and didn’t have a great staff with him. That wasn’t going to work from the start.
Something just feels different this time…………
when does K2T2 staff start appearing?
My assumption is this
Kevin KeaTTs (2 Ks and 2 Ts)when does K2T2 staff start appearing?
My assumption is this
Kevin KeaTTs (2 Ks and 2 Ts)Is it random reply time? If so then staph sometimes shows up when people quit regularly washing their hands.
I heard that one guy James Johnson was on the radar as an assistant but have heard nothing official as of hiring yet.
James Johnson formerly HC at VT has joined the staff. Pretty good credentials, except his W/L record. Laranaga, to me, is a coach that I would want to work for and mentor. He has the ability to figure out HOW to win or at least compete without a lot of blue chippers. Valvano had that knack.
UPDATE…Archie has SPOKEN.
If you were asleep and MISSED the SVP ESPN SC LIVE 12:00 Segment 3/28/17 (Archie looked like he was up WAY PAST his bedtime) Interview, then you missed a couple of salient points.
Archie said that the phone had “RUNG” many times and he did not even bother to answer as he was NOT INTERESTED. BUT, when IU called (he did not add….after Alford said “I don’t give a Feces about Indiana”, paraphrasing ORW), he HAD to answer.
He then went on to say that he was actually a “soulmate” with the typical IN “small basketball town”. He did not say that Hooiers was written about his family, but talked on and on about growing up with a BB in hand and how his PA town or neighborhood could have been transplanted into IN and would have blended right in.
He seemed sincere, but he was 100% that this was the ONLY and BEST match and it was, to him, the ideal setting….even though the expectations were high and that IU showed confidence in him and….Blah Blah Yada Yada.
SVP did throw many softballs and Archie fluffed them up and got max benefit or impact.
CONCLUSION (to me). We NEVER, EVER (based on the Agent’s answer to our “Is Archie interested?” had a shot. That door, for whatever reason, was closed and no amount of cajoling or seduction (which he did NOT WANT) was going to change that.
I don’t know whether to believe all the “Archie is WAITING for NCSU to CALL” comments that we were bombarded with here or NOT. If I DID, then I would be MIFFED and MAD.
If I take Archie at his word and also realize that WE, the Loonie WPN, cut all ties with the Millers when we were LESS than enthusiastic over Herbie….THEN I can move on and NOT scheme revengeful plots to he and his family.
BOTTOM LINE….If Coach Keatts DOES do a good job and improve our program, we are going to HAVE to figure out HOW to keep him. If he is seduced and leaves, then our W/L record should be greatly improved and we will be on the ROAD again. We DID turn the corner with Gottfried….but the PRESS, as usual, was NOT supportive….it took 27 years to destroy us….Moses spent 40 years in the desert. I HOPE (like ORW) that I do live long enough for us to be a FF team again. If I have to have a charter Jet Ambulance and full medical team (think Dick Cheney’s support staff), I will spend the money and BE THERE…
GO PACK. Welcome Coach Keatts. Good JOB, AD Yow.
Flame at will…..the range is clear….
Johnson’s hiring has been announced. He seemingly had a good rep at VT and should help us recruit the state of Virginia. There’s enough talent to win big if we just hit the area from DC to Atlanta hard. UNC and Duke recruit much more nationally and Duke in particular almost never takes a kid from NC. With Georgetown in turmoil and Maryland in the Big10, there’s a huge vaccuum that we’re ready to fill.
It seems to me that we tried with Archie early, but he wasn’t interested. Que sera sera. At least we tried and I’m thankful that we were out in front early and came with our calls before anyone else could. I offer him no ill will for taking IU. Sometimes it is tough to come “home” even if you want to.
I’m not at all worried about Keatts leaving. When’s the last NC State football, men’s basketball, baseball or women’s basketball coach who left for greener pastures? It’s been over 20 years. If Keatts performs, we’ll keep paying him. That’s part of why I don’t like a 6 year deal. That just makes a buy out bigger if he doesn’t perform (though somehow I kind of feel like that won’t be a problem).
Exactly, Roo. That is the only logical and sensible conclusion at this point.
Archie was NEVER coming here. That was further cemented once the Indiana job became open. It is time for some of those that wish to perpetually blame Debbie Yow or others for not reeling in Archie or other big dogs to let it go. It sucks, but we are who they say we are at this point. Oh, and I am a fan, but NC State has not received a penny from me since 2012.
I will readily admit that I am cautiously optimistic about Pack football and men’s basketball moving forward. I am also at peace because I have finally accepted the fact that we will probably never reach elite status unless we are very fortunate and/or lucky with an up-and-comer, which is the way it works at most every other school. The past few coaching searches, as woefully unsuccessful as they were, at least offered hope and intrigue at the thought of a big name coaching coming to Raleigh. For a number of reasons, State is simply never going to attract and/or pay such established talent at this point.
Pitino gave us some wise advice when discussing the Keatts hire: Go for continuity. If State is ever again going to be a much-desired job, we will need Keatts to do very well here, re-establish the program, and stick around 10-15 years. At this point, State has to completely brand itself anew – a total makeover. I am optimistic and hopeful Keatts can do that.
There are actually 2 assistants officially in the cold now. Johnson and the latest is his right hand man from uncw.
I am fine with both hires.
Rye – like you, I think there was a lot to be gained by being methodical in the search. It’s important to remember – that last time a coach was hired in a methodical, logical manner – it resulted in a 10 year tenure. Granted, the cocktail napkin searches that followed – were perfect examples of what happens when you don’t really have a plan after your first option or two say no thanks.
To me, I think Archie would have listened, but ultimately turned us down. Maybe he’s a midwesterner at heart, maybe he thinks we’re nothing but a bunch of red-faced unreasonable fans.
It’s not important anymore as it pertains to him. What I do hope our community learns is to try to keep our disagreements more private. Specifically, I would like the moderators? to actually moderate our largest site. They don’t need to run down our current players to prop up subpar coaches and they shouldn’t tolerate attacks on players or the families of coaches. That particular site is the wild West and l don’t think that’s accidental.
Keatts doing so well he’s got lots of great offers coming at him to steal him away is a problem we’d be very lucky to have!
Cause he have to do really well for that problem to exist.
To me, I think Archie would have listened, but ultimately turned us down.
Archie said that the phone had “RUNG” many times and he did not even bother to answer as he was NOT INTERESTED.
I’m leaning toward the “we never had a chance” camp. I dare say the same for Marshall. Those facts were acknowledged, accepted and Yow & Co. moved on.
And now evidently I have to worry about Keatts getting poached before game 1!
Did I just read that Duke can’t recruit in state?? We realize that Harry Giles and Brandon Ingram went to Duke? Just because they recruit at a higher level than us, doesn’t mean they don’t recruit in state.
I’m not at all worried about Keatts leaving. When’s the last NC State football, men’s basketball, baseball or women’s basketball coach who left for greener pastures? It’s been over 20 years.
Bo Rein for LSU (who unfortunately didn’t live long enough to actually coach there). To the best of my knowledge, Dick Sheridan and Jimmy V were the last two coaches that were even approached by another school.
Keatts leaving for another job is way down the list of things that I’m going to even think about.
Disappointed in Takayo. I assumed he was Asian ethnicity and that we would get some brownie points from the NCAA. However, he is a local NC lad and only AFAM. We will NOT get Terry Henderson’s waiver approved by not implementing a more robust diversity program. Word on the street is that Coach Kevin has been advised by ORW to select an LBGTQX persuasion coach for the third Assistant. THAT will improve Henderson’s appeal process.
There are SOME times that I do think that my paranoia index is peaking….and without using my new 750 Lumen Tact Light as a aid to type by, I do believe that the NCAA will underscore the North Carolina State words on Henderson’s Appeal application and pencil in HB2? in the margin….
Henderson is such a positive player…I sure HOPE he gets a favorable ruling.
Any “Tweets” or expressions of “position” from Maverick? He seems to be quiet and non-committal….
Did I just read that Duke can’t recruit in state?? We realize that Harry Giles and Brandon Ingram went to Duke? Just because they recruit at a higher level than us, doesn’t mean they don’t recruit in state.
I didn’t say can’t. I said WON’T. Giles and Ingram are two of maybe 5 total Duke recruits over the past 10 years from NC. I may be missing a couple, and some that sat on the bench, but they’ve not built their program out of NC kids.
UNC will pick off 1-2 NC kids a year, but they’re not living off of NC kids either. They’re recruiting from all over, and they’re getting Nike kids.
Let’s put it another way. One could build a pretty consistent top 25 team by just the talent that walks out of NC every year. It’s true in basketball, not just football. In basketball though, this talent often ends up at “lower” programs because we’ve chosen to pass. A great example of this is the VCU recruit that we’re currently after.
My point here is that basketball recruiting is much different than football recruiting. There’s plenty of room for all four of the Big Four to recruit well. We’re a premiere Adidas school and get choice of the litter for the Adidas kids, particularly ones from DC to Atlanta. We just need to lock down that area.
I actually think this is where Keatts has an inherent leg up on our other candidates. He did 10 years at Hargrave and by nature must have tons of well established contacts in this region.
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