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Grey you only look at the things that support your opinion.
Yes, that is correct. I’ve noticed that even you, as wonderful and smart as you are, cite things that support your opinion.
You keep referencing the Clemson game as if we won.
sorry about that. I intended to reference the Clemson game as if we had played them.
Grey, let me get this straight. We should have someone else handle in game management?
Greywolf’s words for which Pack1997 showed contempt prior to investigation: “I would like to see the coordinators given the responsibility and authority to run the offense, defense and special teams as they see fit to accomplish goals agreed upon by the HC and coordinators.”
Pack1997,
in pro games rarely do you see Head Coaches calling plays or defenses. There are college teams managed this way as well. Coordinators are held accountable for the calls and decisions they make. If you’ve ever wondered why good coordinators make the money they make, this is a big part of the reason. The HC’s job is to be a presence on the sideline, butt slapper and attaboy dispenser. An important part of the HC’s job is to be available for consultation if a coordinator wants to deviate from the game plan.This site is rampart with contempt prior to investigation. This isn’t youth league football with the HC on the sidelines making all the decisions as many seem to think Doeren is doing.
I would like to see the coordinators given the responsibility and authority to run the offense, defense and special teams as they see fit to accomplish goals agreed upon by the HC and coordinators.
I like this idea. We should do is put in a indicator light up on the scoreboard that turns red when Dave’s microphone is muted. The crowd can look at it and boo when that microphone is green. We can also use the old Reynolds noise meter approach where the light is fake, and controlled out of the announcer’s booth.
DD would love it. He’d get to pass the buck. He’s thrown fans and players on the bus. He’d be more easily able to blame the assistants. “I was muted!”
In all seriousness, DD’s input is part of the reason I’ve had a far different opinion of Hux than most. I don’t really think that this is Hux’s defense, though he may call 80% of the plays during the game. I believed before last season that we’d tank and then Hux would be unfairly fired as the sacrificial lamb. Fortunately the defense improved, and that didn’t happen, but I absolutely thought DD would fire Hux to buy himself another year. Credit goes to DD and Hux for working together to improve the defense. If we push into the top 25 this year in overall (and more importantly scoring defense) then we’ll at least be solid.
Grey I constitute in game management to be when to go for it on 4th, when the game is on the line make sure we put it in this persons hands, time management. And then in the coordinators ears when we are headed in the wrong direction. An example would be lets get the ball down field a few times etc. I believe coordinators should ahve the freedom to call plays as long as the scheme etc is being done so in the HC vision. I remember the CTC years where he wanted to be actively involved in everything and thus screwed it up.
rye, I don’t see DD as being “blame the assistants” kind of guy. Perhaps you do. let’s agree to not waste our time trying to prove ourselves right. I know of times that he was guilty of at a minimum careless about what he said or how he said it. My last word and I’ll offer you the very last word if you want it, the assistant coaches seem to like working for Doeren. If he were throwing them under the bus (not on the bus) I doubt that would be true nor would new hires be clamoring to come here to coach. (Ledford, Drink, Patrick, Henry)
We’ll never know the true story on how Doeren and Hux worked to get the defense together. Some decisions were only Doeren’s to make such as switching to the 4-2-5 and when to do it (2014). Neither Hux nor Doeren had a 4-2-5 background and I would guess the 4-2-5 was discussed and researched by both. Bottom line I can’t see Doeren expecting Hux to coach a defense he wasn’t fully invested in.
We both have seen or know of Doeren barking at Hux going into the locker room at half-time. Depending on who we wanted to make wrong we could make that mean anything we wanted to make it mean. More than likely IMO all it meant was Doeren was upset at what he saw happen with the defense and Hux is the guy he talks to or yells at about it. It doesn’t even mean it was something that Hux himself did. I have chewed a foreman out for something a mechanic did. Later the mechanic caught it from the foreman. Sh!t runs down hill.
in pro games rarely do you see Head Coaches calling plays or defenses. There are college teams managed this way as well. Coordinators are held accountable for the calls and decisions they make. If you’ve ever wondered why good coordinators make the money they make, this is a big part of the reason. The HC’s job is to be a presence on the sideline, butt slapper and attaboy dispenser. An important part of the HC’s job is to be available for consultation if a coordinator wants to deviate from the game plan.
This is very well stated. Mack Brown comes to mind. Were it not for Greg Davis he’d be on the heap pile.
Grey I constitute in game management to be when to go for it on 4th, when the game is on the line make sure we put it in this persons hands, time management. And then in the coordinators ears when we are headed in the wrong direction. An example would be lets get the ball down field a few times etc. I believe coordinators should ahve the freedom to call plays as long as the scheme etc is being done so in the HC vision. I remember the CTC years where he wanted to be actively involved in everything and thus screwed it up.
Pack1997,
What you say makes sense from a “the HC is responsible” point of view. Doeren’s background is defense (just like CTC.) Do you really want him making offensive decisions when we are “headed in the wrong direction” because it’s his “responsibility”? He’s responsible no matter who makes the decision but does that mean you want a lessor qualified person making important decisions because of his title? Same thing when your HC is a guy with an offensive background.Don’t cut the coordinators off at the knees. Give the coordinators responsibility and authority and hold them to account for their actions/decisions. You have a game plan. The boss is there to grant the coordinator authorization to go outside the game plan not to suddenly become Mike Leach and make decisions about the offense. If the coordinator can’t sell his argument to go outside the game plan, stay with the game plan.
These guys coach together. Example conversation:
“Coach, Ledford thinks we can pick up the first with ’22 dive left.’ We’ve been dominating the LT on the ground all day. I say, go for it.”
“Okay Drink, if we don’t make it, our D’s been holding.” Go for it.”OR “It’s too risky with a lead at this point. Let’s punt away. Aaron, make sure the P team knows not to fake it.”
The HC does not have to be by himself on an island because he’s the HC.” He’s still responsible. Maybe that situation needs to be re-thought at the next coaches meeting.
Most decisions are already made and are in charts. The special circumstance decisions are know by every assistant on the sideline. We don’t have any assistants who will let the HC make a fool of himself. If we do, fire the backstabber now.
Doeren should be on the headset with the appropriate Assistant HC to confer and confirm his thinking. Yes, we now have Assistant Head Coaches. These assistants should have situations thought through and ‘what if’ decision advice ready to go.
By the way the decision at the end of the Clemson game is considered by some knowledgeable people to be the correct decision, not the numskull decision that cost us the game. I had no opinion, just scared he would miss. It could have gone the other way (we could have tried to run it) and Clemson could have picked up a fumble and ran it in. The arrogance to think “my” decision is the only right one is overwhelming on these boards. And it doesn’t matter how many other board monkeys agree with that decision.
Grey: I think we both see that DD badly needs some media relations training. He may or may not throw others under the bus in private or in front of the team, but it sure doesn’t come across that way in the post game press conferences. That might be the place where his microphone most needs muting.
I have thought since day one that DD and Hux were a team on the defense. That’s why when many wanted Hux’s head, I questioned them. Do we really think this is solely Hux’s defense or even that he is primarily responsible? As you say, he’s never been a 4-2-5 guy. The good news is that we improved last year, and will have a stout DL this year (which means we should again be solid).
I greatly enjoy the exchange of opinions – pro and con. What I don’t like is the back biting that seems to come with those opinions.
For what it is worth I see the football program in a better place than when TOB was released. Enough better? That is always the question.I greatly enjoy the exchange of opinions – pro and con. What I don’t like is the back biting that seems to come with those opinions.
For what it is worth I see the football program in a better place than when TOB was released. Enough better? That is always the question.TOB last season. 4-4 with a win against #3 FSU. That statement is highly highly up for debate.
If your only mark is win/loss I’ll agree with you. I think going forward there are other things to be watched. DD might have a breakout year or might fall face first in the mud this year but I think the program is in a better place today.
TOB last season. 4-4 with a win against #3 FSU. That statement is highly highly up for debate.
Had TOB been allowed another year he would have been lucky to win even one game. We had no QB, and a dearth of talent. It was REALLY bad. And since he refused to recruit there was no prospect of it getting any better. Negative momentum is the best way to describe it. Death spiral is probably dead on, pun intended. The writing on that wall was pretty dire.
We happened to be eating out last night and sitting next to a couple at another table. I had a NC State shirt on. The couple struck up a conversation with us (me primarily). Turns out the couple was Howard and Lynda Baum. Howard has been the statistician for Wolfpack radio since 1967. Part of our discussion turned to the prospects for the upcoming seasons. Howard made the comment that the excitement level in football, and men’s and women’s basketball is at a level he hasn’t seen in 30 years. This came from a guy who does numbers. We wound up sitting there with them for an hour after we had finished eating (ignoring our wive’s discussions of course since Howard and I were talking numbers of all kinds and in all places, not just State athletics). It’s hard to find someone as into “numbers” and statistics like I am. For me it was a most enjoyable evening, the wife had fun talking to Lynda too so it wasn’t a complete wash for the ladies.
Smarter than the average bear
Yogi I think pretty much the same. TOB was coasting, refused to recruit and the cupboard was bare. That has impacted DD in his efforts to rebuild the program. Will he get there before patience wears out? Typically that doesn’t happen, usually the next coach becomes the hero based on the work of the program builder.I do think he has to show a better W/L record this year to survive. I also am more optimistic (some reservations) than in a long time for football and men’s basketball. Women’s basketball is further along.
TOB last season. 4-4 with a win against #3 FSU. That statement is highly highly up for debate.
Had TOB been allowed another year he would have been lucky to win even one game. We had no QB, and a dearth of talent. It was REALLY bad. And since he refused to recruit there was no prospect of it getting any better. Negative momentum is the best way to describe it. Death spiral is probably dead on, pun intended. The writing on that wall was pretty dire.
We happened to be eating out last night and sitting next to a couple at another table. I had a NC State shirt on. The couple struck up a conversation with us (me primarily). Turns out the couple was Howard and Lynda Baum. Howard has been the statistician for Wolfpack radio since 1967. Part of our discussion turned to the prospects for the upcoming seasons. Howard made the comment that the excitement level in football, and men’s and women’s basketball is at a level he hasn’t seen in 30 years. This came from a guy who does numbers. We wound up sitting there with them for an hour after we had finished eating (ignoring our wive’s discussions of course since Howard and I were talking numbers of all kinds and in all places, not just State athletics). It’s hard to find someone as into “numbers” and statistics like I am. For me it was a most enjoyable evening, the wife had fun talking to Lynda too so it wasn’t a complete wash for the ladies.
No offense but that sounds like a guy that is toeing the company line. I think most pack fans I am around, here on this board and the others are just more like “Ho hum, here we go again”. I think if DD hits the 6 or 7 win mark then you will see the apathy truly set in. But like you guys tend to suggest there is always that long shot that DD has that miracle year.
And we have absolutely no idea how TOB would have done with another year.
Grey: I think we both see that DD badly needs some media relations training. He may or may not throw others under the bus in private or in front of the team, but it sure doesn’t come across that way in the post game press conferences. That might be the place where his microphone most needs muting.
I hope he can find a neutral ground between his basic honesty and “coach speak” needed for media relations. Off the top of my head I’d say there is a fine line between blame (throwing someone under the bus) and analyzing what happened in order to correct it. I hope Doeren has been carelessly analyzing what happened in front of the media and I hope he will stop doing it.
I have thought since day one that DD and Hux were a team on the defense. That’s why when many wanted Hux’s head, I questioned them. Do we really think this is solely Hux’s defense or even that he is primarily responsible? As you say, he’s never been a 4-2-5 guy. The good news is that we improved last year, and will have a stout DL this year (which means we should again be solid).
Just guessing again — I think Doeren initially thought through the defense with Hux and provided some opinion/guidance as the 4-2-5 was installed and Hux got more familiar and more comfortable with it. As you have seem in my posts I distinguish between “the team” and “the program.” Hux, again just guessing, manages the defense from a team perspective while Doeren manages “the program.” Doeren’s job includes determining what defense the team is going to run although I expect that we will see more “adjustments” to the defense than changes as me move forward.
Dom Capers, the Green Bay DC, found they were running about 80 percent nickel and dime defenses in lieu of their standard 4-3 and is adjusting the personnel accordingly. Josh Jones is a big part of these adjustments. He is described as a LB disguised as a DB.
I think and I expect you will agree, Doeren and Hux make a good team. Hux isn’t so caught up in ego that he can’t let Doeren be engaged in conversation about the D. These seemingly casual discussions are going on all the time between Doeren and the various coordinators, directors and managers in the program. He probably could use a secretary with him to take notes full time. LOL
rye, there is some good conversation going on about football in about 3 threads. I like reading it and participating. The more discussion, the less need I feel to participate.
And we have absolutely no idea how TOB would have done with another year.
I disagree. While its true that we don’t know if TOB would have won 2 games or 4….you would have to be blind to think that DD’s first season was ever going to be anything other than an unmitigated disaster regardless of who the coach was.
And we have absolutely no idea how TOB would have done with another year.
I disagree. While its true that we don’t know if TOB would have won 2 games or 4….you would have to be blind to think that DD’s first season was ever going to be anything other than an unmitigated disaster regardless of who the coach was.
It takes a lot of bad breaks and bad coaching to go ofer in the conference. You almost have to try to do that. While I am not saying TOB would have won it but I think he would have pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won at least 3-4 conference games. That tended to be his wheelhouse. I was neither for or against firing him just pointing that Yow better have the same parameters when it comes to DD. And I thought he had that hot shot qb that committed that eventually went to Kstate.
Revisionist history. TOB left the cupboard bare. Lack of any recruiting sealed the deal. DD might not be the savior but I have no doubt the program is in better shape than when TOB was shown the door. Better enough is the question. I get you are not a DD fan but do take the blinders off.
I was neither for or against firing him just pointing that Yow better have the same parameters when it comes to DD.
I don’t understand your statement “that Yow better have the same parameters when it comes to DD.” Or what? You gonna roll her house with TP if she doesn’t? 😉
Yow’s parameters for firing TOB were concerns over lagging season-ticket sales, as well as his approach to recruiting. I don’t remember TOB’s approach to recruiting. “Catch as catch can” seemed to be about it.
TOB had some very bad luck with his coaches’ health and I very much appreciated his loyalty to his assistants. TOB’s character never was an issue with me. I wonder if he wasn’t forced to do too much “coaching” and that distracted and took away from his attention to his duties/obligations to manage the entire football program. If his time was spent coaching, something else had to suffer. A quick look at the coaches roster will show that the HC has no position coaching responsibilities.
I’m on record as saying TOB left a good culture base (“Champions in the Classroom, Champions in the Community, Champions on the Field”) for his successor to build on. I don’t confuse his lack of an approach to recruiting with a lack of character. TOB had character.
And I thought he had that hot shot qb that committed that eventually went to Kstate.
Is this a tribute to DD’s approach to recruiting? Go after the best players who will consider NC State? We aren’t landing every player we go after but we are now on quite a few elite recruits favored lists. You have to be considered before you can expect to be selected. DD’s approach to recruiting will produce results.
Not only was the cupboard bare in 2013 but the prospect lists had few elite prospects. Not so today.
from my perspective TOB was/is a fine gentleman, BUT, his results with TWO NFL caliber QBs was not stellar to say the least. Take away those two and no way he wins more than 4 that next year. NO WAY. I still say he would have been lucky to win 1, but that’s my opinion.
Say what you want but in 4 years DD now has people talking about State in a positive light. From a D that couldn’t play with anyone to the one no one wants to play is quite a distance traveled in that time span. We were also a kicker away from defeating the national champion and a top rated team. And just so it is clear, BC was a top rated defensive team last year. We laid an egg at da ville, but then again that QB made FSU look like chumps big time. As the old saying goes “it’s relative”, from where I sit an inch or two here and there and it would have been a really good season. But then that’s just my perspective.
And BTW, no one else was in that conversation with Howard Baum, what I saw and heard from him was anything but the company line. Whether you like DD or not there are a lot of people inside the lines at State that like him a lot, and see him as being very close to being considered a successful coach. Consider this, since 1994 the best year we had was 10 – 3, and that was with a NFL hall of fame caliber QB and a load of other talent. All of the other years were middling at best, and yet to hear it the detractors would have us believe DD was the absolute worst coach we’ve ever had. Nope, not even close, and I’ve been around long enough to see the worst. And the second worst, and the third worst.
Smarter than the average bear
I think most pack fans I am around, here on this board and the others are just more like “Ho hum, here we go again”.
Wow! I’ve read a lot of comments here on SFN but “Ho hum, here we go again” isn’t one of them. I wouldn’t expect “Ho hum, here we go again” comments until and if the Pack lost to Wake Forest, BC and a couple of WTF games.
I think if DD hits the 6 or 7 win mark then you will see the apathy truly set in.
7 win mark? Isn’t that what you were crowing about TOB’s last year, 7 wins?
And we have absolutely no idea how TOB would have done with another year.
Change your mind? Just a few hours ago you were sure TOB was going to pull a few rabbits out of his arse or somewhere and win 3 or 4 conference games. Now you have absolutely no idea what TOB would have done.
TOB’s train was about to completely run off the track. He had three good things going in recruiting — RBs, DL and QBs. Kitchings was retained for a reason and the DL coach was snatched up by Clemson for a reason. The rest was bad and our steady decline in the rankings reflected it. I actually think we had a graduate assistant promoted to recruiting coordinator.
With the QBs, Bible’s had a track record of putting QBs in the NFL, so it could overcome some of our limitations (like you had to come to campus and throw to get an offer). I think his health issues had killed that QB pipeline. We were prepared to go into the season with Pete Thomas as QB and put him in the shotgun, fully conceding the run. No offense to Pete, but that was going to be an absolute disaster.
Revisionist history seems to forget that we had Archer coaching the defense. We were Swiss cheese and leaving 10 yard cushions on all receivers in our zone. The offense had carried TOB and it was about to come to a screeching halt.
That year was going to be a mess regardless of who coached it. I suspect we’d have gone 4-8 or 5-7 with a couple of wins after a bye week. The question was how far down that really needed to go before the cupboard was completely bare, that this was a total rebuild job, and it was that much tougher to get someone good in here. I applauded Yow for being proactive and dealing with that before it got worse. It was one her best moves as AD at NC State. I’ve never once wished for TOB back.
Now having said that, it took a special kind of awful to go 0-8 in the ACC during DD’s first year. We had serious talent gaps, but the staff didn’t play their cards well at all. DD also called out the fans and right out of the gate. I completely understand why many were quickly turned off and are highly reluctant to turn back on.
In life, people don’t get mulligans. They get second chances. Second chances are much harder than the first go around.
The “ho hum” comment is in regards to having high expectations going into the season with the bulk of us knowing how this plays out. We are NC State are we not?
Nobody is crowing about 7 wins, 4-4 in the conference was more the point. Not sure why you are having trouble wrapping your mind around that but I have my suspicions.
And lastly, in TOB’s career he only won less than 3 games in conference just once. One time. So I am really really confident that he could yes indeed pull a rabbit out of his hat and get us to 3 or 4 wins. Which is really here nor there.
I will say it one last time, I know you like DD, its brutally obvious but the fact remains he has done himself no favors going into his 5th year. His recruiting has been declining and I am afraid another “down” year will lose any fan support he still has and have an ugly albatross hanging around his neck as not being able to get it done. On paper we should beat USC but looking back and seeing their past recruiting from 5 years or so and it shows they are top 25ish overall. This all of a sudden feels like the Tenn game in TOB last year. They were a horrible team but still had way more talent than someone from the ACC. So that leaves us the ACC assuming there are no WTF losses out of conference like you said. So he is absolutely coaching for his job to make it to 4-4 in conference. There is zero doubt in my mind he misses that mark and losses to USC he is done. There is no argument anyone could make that would justify keeping him.
If he hits the 4-4, 5-3 record then he hits a big payday and everything resets so to speak. But the fact remains he has gotten us to this point that he has no room for error.
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