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Wulf – where is Louisville in that?
And no one would consider FSu, Clemson, Miami or Va Tech our peers.
Again, the 3 guys drafted and other seniors signing free agency contracts when those seniors aren’t even our highest regarded prospects indicates a solid squad…which I believe we were last year.
Sure.
A national championship appearance.
Other BCS bowl game appearances.
An Acc conference championship in the last 30 years (in spite of being in the conference less than 15 years. Other ACC championship appearances.
More fan support.
If another BCS school is negotiating a home and home series whom to think would excite their fan base more?
This doesn’t mean that we can’t compete. It just means that we aren’t at their level and quite frankly haven’t been in 20 years.
chop: That’s kind of my point. I think we can compete, but we’re not there yet. We’re going to have to get some better talent. I think we’re doing a solid job of developing them once they get here, but we need some guys with a bit higher ceilings.
Grey – that’s a great sign. However, I think our OL was pretty solid last year.
I do believe we have a gem in our current OL coach.
Like you say our O-line was pretty solid last year and still couldn’t block our D-line. This says more for our D-line than is a put down of our O-line. Hard to think of any facet of NC State football as really outstanding but our D-line was/is.
100% agree Dwayne Ledford is a gem of a O’line coach. Let’s hope Kevin Patrick turns out to be as much of a gem as Ledford. 🙂
pack1997: I think development falls into a couple of buckets. The first is physical, and I think our guys finally look like football players. This is the most obvious improvement from the TOB era at least to me. The guys seem to get bigger, stronger and faster while they play here. So if that’s some percentage of player development (say 30-50%), then we seem to get a check across the board for whatever that percent is.
Then there is skill development, football instincts, etc.. I think that varies position by position, coach and experience.I seem to see good positional coaching at DL (hope the new one is as good as the last one), OL (think Ledford is a good one) and RBs (our best positional combination of talent and depth on the roster). Two of those three units are the most important in college football (with the QB being the third).
I think people question the back 7 on defense, but I’m not as sure if that is coaching, the scheme, the recruits or lack of depth. To be honest, I’d have never guessed Jones was a second rounder. I thought the LBs looked better last year, but there’s only 2 of them and they’ve played a lot of downs in their careers (so some of that is likely just experience). I’m not sure that the personnel sets up that well for using the 4-2-5. Maybe those with more trained eyes can weigh in on this.
I think that people rightly question the development in QBs, our kicking and our WRs (earlier in this thread). Heck, I question those as well. If one wants to point to these three areas and say there’s a lack of player development, then I could understand drawing that conclusion as well.
We’ve made a change at WR coach. We’ve made a change at DB coach. We’ve made a change at OC/QBs coach. Maybe those things will improve things?
I think the hardest problem is identifying where we really are developing better. I agree on the physical part, but outside of that I am not sure. Is it the RB ability to run and take hits or is it the Oline blocking? Is the QB holding the ball too long or the O line blocking, or the receivers not getting open cleanly? All valid points and probably a little bit of all of it at times. Outside of our DL I don’t see our players getting extremely better year over year. Part of that is coaching, as I don’t think they put many of the skill position players in a position to succeed.
The guys seem to get bigger, stronger and faster
That is a heck of start to developing a football team. Add strong O-line and D-lines and most coaches would take that to build on. The LBs lacked depth last year. That seems to be corrected. The DB’s coming up are deeper than in the past thus we have good competition there.
We’ve lost Dayes and Frasier but still have good RBs and depth there with Hines moving to his natural position. According to our WR guru, Mr. DOG, we have size and speed at WR and good hands. Plus those guys can and will block.
Our Senior TE is a great blocker and with JSam at H-back we can compete there. Thad Moss will be missed as will McKever but we can survive their leaving without undue ill effect.
With an O-line that can hang with a D-line that is said to be one of the best in the country, good things can happen on offense. Remember we have a QB who put us in position to win 10 games in 2016.
Much of the spring was spent working on special teams — an area that in addition to kicking needs improvement and consistency.
Not loaded with super stars but IMO a well developed football team.
………………………………………………….
Recruiting wise more 4-star recruits are interested in State than ever before — like one dude who’s 6-6, 315 pounds.We have a QB commitment from NJ who is rated 4-star nearly everywhere. He was MVP at a regional Elite11 QB camp and is invited to the national Elite11. In his junior video he looks great — hitting receivers in stride with 40/50 yard strikes. At 6-2, 200 as a junior he’s still growing. He looked to have good if not great speed also.
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
I just have one question for you guys, must we always reiterate the past when talk about what’s possible in the future?
Yes Grey we must. It is the past that teaches us to hope. Unfortunately when looking at our past it is mediocre therefore not much hope. All the things you mention sound great and always do in May. Then the season comes, NC State $#!T occurs, and hopes are dashed. When this happens over decades, it wears on you until you would rather spend your time and money doing other things. I havent gotten there yet but many of my friends have.
grey: Given history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it, I think we probably should be mindful of what happened in the past. As you say it doesn’t define the future, but the best predictor of future performance is past performance.
Yow set this one up with her initial expectations of what TOB’s successor would do. DD’s done some of them (run a clean program and graduate players we are proud of), but he’s missed on some other ones (results, Alabama styled recruits). Yow’s kept him around despite missing those expectations and what I personally think is poor handling of the media. That’s fine, but one can’t really ignore that DD isn’t getting the results that the previous guy that got fired did (note, I was no TOB fan, so it’s not like I’ve got some retrospective rose colored glasses). If she’d have said that she fired TOB for “general program management” with a wink, wink, nod, nod to the RW situation, then I think it might be a little different. Maybe that’s not fair to DD, but it doesn’t change it.
DD also laid the biggest egg in year one in 25+ years of the program. It’s almost as if one had to try to go winless in the ACC that year. That was as bad as it gets and he paired it with calling out the fans. In life there really aren’t mulligans, particularly at that salary and job profile. He put himself in a very tough position right out of the gate with his paying customers. This is an entertainment business, and sometimes coaches forget that.
I want DD to do well because if he does well, NC State does well. As a fan, I’d kind of like to taste any sort of success in a revenue sport because it has been a long time since 1979. Yes, DD wasn’t coach that entire time, and it’s only fair to judge him on his tenure, but one has to be mindful of the bigger picture and also understand why the natives could be quite restless.
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
I just have one question for you guys, must we always reiterate the past when talk about what’s possible in the future?
grey: Given history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it, I think we probably should be mindful of what happened in the past.
ryebread, did you miss where I acknowledged I still see the past which must improve?
I want to take a look at the application of the “history” point you spent so much time on..
Looking to see how we did on 3rd and long in 2013 seems kind of foolish to me. Looking to see how we did on 3rd and long in the 3rd quarter, is more realistic. Looking at how we did in our last 2 or 3 games seems to be a better indicator of how we might do in our next game than looking at how we did in 2015 or 2014. I’d say the the History repeating itself analogy looses some, not all, of it’s usefulness in predicting athletic success.
There are many down right horrible examples in sports history. Like the manager who went to the mound and reminded the pitcher (history) to NOT threw a certain pitch and the batter hit it out of the park? That little reminder cost somebody a World Series.
I say give positive instructions, not negative reminders from history. Don’t remind the kicker of the miss that cost us the Clemson game. Doesn’t seem to be the kind of thing that builds confidence and confidence is a big part of athletic success or so I’ve always believed. Yet you say “history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it.” Seems more likely that remembering past history, good or bad, while performing is worse than useless.
I’m sure it’s a waste of time to try to point out that there are options other than ignoring the past or being mindful of the past, but here goes. Sports psychologists have a concept called “complete the past.” One successful coach I know of actually uses the Rear view Mirror/Windshield analogy in the first team meeting after the previous game to complete the past. He writes what happened — the good and the bad — inside a rear view mirror he draws on the white board. After acknowledging and covering “the past” they declare the past complete and move to the white board with the “windshield” on it. The windshield is symbolic of looking forward to what they are going to do to get ready for the next game. Over simplification I’m sure but filing the past in the past drawer gives a different future than filing the past in the present drawer (being mindful of the past).
Comparing TOB’s record with Russell Wilson and Mike Glennon at QB to DD’s record in 2013 with Pete Thomas and that ex-wide receiver at QB, is rather disingenuous. I’m also not impressed with those who think all Debbie Yow looks at is the W/L record. She’s an ex-coach and knows that there’s more to the condition of a program than just the W/L record. True enough the W/L record makes it difficult to see. Just as looking at a big house and fancy cars does not tell of the financial condition of a man. Looking at TOB’s 2012 W/L record does not tell the condition our football program was in nor did DD’s 2016 W/L record tell the actual condition of our football program. The W/L record tells how successful the team was in 2016 but not the condition of the program.
I’d say that comparing dividends compiled when assets were stripped creating a false picture of company’a health to dividends compiled when the company’s assets are being restored is an unwise comparison. TOB took the assets he acquired when he took over and used them to build a decent w/l record but failed to restock the assets (recruiting and development) for 2013 and forward.
Who knows how it’s all going to turn out but we are going to have to play the games with players we have in 2017, not players we had in the past. That I do know. 😉
I’ve gone back over this and tried to take out any smart-arse that my have crept in. If I missed any, please know that none is intended.
Go Pack!
Yes Grey we must.
No, Pack 1997 we mustn’t.
The guys seem to get bigger, stronger and faster
That is a heck of start to developing a football team. Add strong O-line and D-lines and most coaches would take that to build on. The LBs lacked depth last year. That seems to be corrected. The DB’s coming up are deeper than in the past thus we have good competition there.
We’ve lost Dayes and Frasier but still have good RBs and depth there with Hines moving to his natural position. According to our WR guru, Mr. DOG, we have size and speed at WR and good hands. Plus those guys can and will block.
Our Senior TE is a great blocker and with JSam at H-back we can compete there. Thad Moss will be missed as will McKever but we can survive their leaving without undue ill effect.
With an O-line that can hang with a D-line that is said to be one of the best in the country, good things can happen on offense. Remember we have a QB who put us in position to win 10 games in 2016.
Much of the spring was spent working on special teams — an area that in addition to kicking needs improvement and consistency.
Not loaded with super stars but IMO a well developed football team.
………………………………………………….
Recruiting wise more 4-star recruits are interested in State than ever before — like one dude who’s 6-6, 315 pounds.We have a QB commitment from NJ who is rated 4-star nearly everywhere. He was MVP at a regional Elite11 QB camp and is invited to the national Elite11. In his junior video he looks great — hitting receivers in stride with 40/50 yard strikes. At 6-2, 200 as a junior he’s still growing. He looked to have good if not great speed also.
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
I just have one question for you guys, must we always reiterate the past when talk about what’s possible in the future?
and yet his rankings have gone down the past 3 seasons to almost where we where before
and yet his rankings have gone down the past 3 seasons to almost where we where before
Would you care to share the numbers of the rankings? Or are you shooting from the hip?
^
2017-61
2016-46**lost the best player from that class
2015-37**lost the best player from that class
2014-26scout rankings. its not trending well for dave
next question
next question
I’ve heard that rankings are affected by volume of recruits committed. A full complement of 3-star recruits could be ranked higher than a program with several 4-star recruits. Therefore while the raw numbers listed above are interesting, they aren’t the be all, end all. Care to comment?
Rankings are partly based on physical attributes. Because many of our recruits play 2 of 3 sports, football and/or basketball and baseball, they don’t have “football bodies” in high school. IMO we are projecting what the recruits will be like after a red shirt year. We are committing recruits that are fits for our program — athletes who have speed and length and bodies that can be molded by our excellent S&C program. This could explain why our athletes, as ryebread says, “seem to get bigger, stronger and faster” while the Scout rankings are falling.
IMO There is no quick answer for programs like NC State. Until we get our program producing like the established programs in our conference and the other P-5 conferences, we will have to do some “growing our own” so to speak.
Bottom line? The only “trending” we should be interested in is the W/L record which unfortunately hit a bump in 2016. If we don’t have a decent W/L record and are not competitive in 2017, it isn’t going to matter where DD’s recruiting classes are “trending”, we will be discussing another coach in 2018.
Until the start of fall camp, this is just something to keep my interest alive. Not a lot of actual football to discuss this time of year. 🙂
grey: Given history repeats itself and those who ignore it seem damned to repeat it, I think we probably should be mindful of what happened in the past.
rye, Just having a little fun with your comment above.
In Earle Edwards 17 years as HC here at NC State he finished 1st or 2nd in the conference 9 times after a pretty miserable start. If only history repeats itself. His last 8 seasons he finished 1st or 2nd 7 times. His last season he was in pretty poor health and finished 4th. How’s that for a history lesson? Good thing we didn’t fire ole Earle the first year he didn’t win a conference game. 🙂
And where were these history repeating itself conversations when we were discussing the hiring of Kevin Keatts? His history was very similar to one James Valvano. I believe ole Jimmy boy won a natty here in 1983 with his only previous HC experience at Iona College.
Grey, some quick thoughts:
– You brought up the past, so I answered why it is pertinent. I’ve said on this thread DD is probably here as long as Yow is. If so, then so be it. Any coach we hire is going to be a gamble. But with a coach that really hasn’t proven anything, there’s one eye on what has been done and one on what might happen better. Seems reasonable, no?
– I’m one of the more positive ones on Keatts and was so fairly quickly after getting past the initial sting of anyone not named Archie Miller. I’ve argued his longer track record of success made him much less risky than Will Wade (and I thought if it wasn’t Archie, we were getting one of these two).
– If Keatts goes winless in the ACC next year and then 4 years later has yet to do better than .500 in conference or get out of the first round of the NCAA tournament, you’d better believe there are going to be people grumbling. While I disliked Gott from the second that hire was announced (much like I felt about TOB), if those are Keatts’ results at that time, you’d better believe we’ll be hearing about Gott’s “two Sweet 16s.” The media will mak them out like they were two National Titles.
– Yow has done a good job at NC State and the Director’s Cup results, APR and lack of major scandal all reflect that. She’s human though, and thus not perfect. She has not handled press conferences well. She may judge on one criteria, but she says she judges on another.
– Tigers don’t change their stripes. Eventually there’s enough body of work for one to just see that that is all someone is really going to accomplish in that role. They’re just not the right fit for the job. How many years is that? What consitutes the success metrics? What’s really the potential given the inputs? I’m not the AD or the money people, but evidently many had seen enough part of the way through last year. I cautioned during that period last year that much was right and if we were going to do something, maybe it was to see whether we had in Kitchings out own version of Dabo. I also argued that the real travesty was men’s basketball and that the pitchforks should be put down and saved for that, where we were clearly doing a lot less with a lot more.
– I think it is fair to say that DD is a good coach 6 days a week, but is a pretty mediocre (to bad one) on game day. He reminds me an awful lot of HWSNBN in basketball. Giving HWSNBN another 10 years wasn’t going to change the complete lack of killer instinct, baffling in game tactical decisions, momentum killing time outs and substitutions, or general Charlie Brown trying to kick the football level of meltdowns when on the verge of anything significant.I’m reminded of the disclaimer that comes with any financial document – “past performance is no guarantee of future success” or in our case past sucky performance is no guarantee for future sucky performance. That said there might be a correlation. I think we are seeing improvement in things that build the base for future success but that is only opinion.
Grey, I understand your continual optimism and looking forward not back. I wish I could still do that. Unfortunately when it is decades of mediocrity, I cannot. Every year is a disappointment, and nothing in DD tenure has given me reason to believe it will be better. You say if we had a kicker we are multiple wins better, well we didn’t and we lost. When we do have a a good kicker we will have a sucky defense, and lose. When we have a great D, our QB is terrible. It is always something. No coach in recent history has been able to put it all together. Looking at the schedule if we are a better football team I don’t see the record being much better. I like many fans have lost hope that we will ever be good in football, because the past had drained us of that hope.
Grey, some quick thoughts:
– You brought up the past, so I answered why it is pertinent.That’s not quite accurate. You brought up the past. I just commented on it.
I’ve said on this thread DD is probably here as long as Yow is. If so, then so be it. Any coach we hire is going to be a gamble. But with a coach that really hasn’t proven anything, there’s one eye on what has been done and one on what might happen better. Seems reasonable, no?
The way you spin it, it is quite reasonable. Unfortunately your spin seems to be viewed through basketball eyes where the HC is out front calling all the shots. The basketball coach is managing 5 players plus 3 or 4 substitutions in a rotation. A football coach has 40 players (O, D, ST) plus another 12 or 15 substitutes to manage in a rotation. That’s 8 or 9 players for the basketball coach and 52+/- for football. Responsibilities are delegated and while the HC is responsible for the outcome of the decisions, he isn’t making all the decisions.
– Yow has done a good job at NC State and the Director’s Cup results, APR and lack of major scandal all reflect that. She’s human though, and thus not perfect. She has not handled press conferences well. She may judge on one criteria, but she says she judges on another.
Who’s to say she hasn’t handled a pro-Tar Heel press well? As far as criteria is concerned, how you handle football and volleyball hiring and firing are not exactly apples to apples comparisons.
Tigers don’t change their stripes. (Now we are getting some real science in the game) Eventually there’s enough body of work for one to just see that that is all someone is really going to accomplish in that role. They’re just not the right fit for the job. How many years is that? What consitutes the success metrics? What’s really the potential given the inputs? I’m not the AD or the money people, but evidently many had seen enough part of the way through last year.
The AD didn’t see fit to fire DD mid-season and to say the EweNC and Vanderbilt wins saved his job is only guess work. It may have made the decision more easy for some to swallow but that is only a matter coincidence.
BTW having a fat wallet and a Vaughn Towers suite does not make one a football expert. Knowing how to raise hogs is not the same as knowing what it takes to build a successful football program. Leave it to the AD.I cautioned during that period last year that much was right and if we were going to do something, maybe it was to see whether we had in Kitchings out own version of Dabo.
You have got to be kidding. Do you have any idea of the amount of plans and notes from practices Sweeney was able to present to the AD when Bowden quit mid-season. Bowden wasn’t fired and the coordinators overlooked and Sweeney hired on a whim. Sweeney’s education wasn’t a BA, he had a Business Administration Masters degree. He was ready in every way to manage a P-5 football program. Clemson is run as close to Alabama as you are going to get. Suggesting Kitchings is ready to be HC at NC State is a real stretch. Kitchings stayed at NC State to continue under Doeren.
I think it is fair to say that DD is a good coach 6 days a week, but is a pretty mediocre (to bad one) on game day. He reminds me an awful lot of HWSNBN in basketball. Giving HWSNBN another 10 years wasn’t going to change the complete lack of killer instinct, baffling in game tactical decisions, momentum killing time outs and substitutions, or general Charlie Brown trying to kick the football level of meltdowns when on the verge of anything significant.
I’m reminded of the disclaimer that comes with any financial document – “past performance is no guarantee of future success” or in our case past sucky performance is no guarantee for future sucky performance. That said there might be a correlation. I think we are seeing improvement in things that build the base for future success but that is only opinion.
Tractor57, I want to stand on your shoulders answering ryebread’s last paragraph above.
Continuing your business reference many businesses that are being pulled up from losing positions loose money the first, second and even third year. Our football analysts would look at the loses and declare management was doing a lousy job. Some would point to darned near everything (the complete lack of killer instinct, baffling in game tactical decisions, momentum killing time outs and substitutions, or general Charlie Brown trying to kick the football) as evidence the current management was a failure.
Like Sweeney DD had a plan when he came here. This wasn’t a ‘let’s give ole Dave a try’ type hire. She know what we were getting and she knew what TOB was leaving DD with. The first year was spent putting in the offense. The second year was spent switching from 4-3-4 defense to 4-2-5 (which is all wrong.) Concurrently with these installations, coaching adjustments were being made both pro-actively and re-actively. The facilities were upgraded, the IPF was completed, support staff upgraded, etc. Building a modern football program is like running a business: facilities, management (coaches), production workers (players) and support staff. If you think Debbie Yow wasn’t fully aware of the plan and how long it would take, you don’t know Debbie Yow. Her associate ADs might meet with some sports but she meets with football and basketball multiple times during the season.
Part of building a successful business is training staff and workers. We see the parallel with training players but often miss the parallel of training staff and coaches. Part of any learning process is making mistakes. Doeren has made mistakes, some we’ve seen and some not necessarily the ones we think he has made, but some mistakes we will never know about. The coaches have to be allowed to make mistakes in their learning process, too. Being allowed to participate with some autonomy is attractive to coaches. I don’t know the reasons our coaches like it here, but my guess it’s like working in business. Fair compensation, good working conditions, reasonable hours, scheduled time off, etc. Coach Doeren is the most organized coach I have ever seen. (I know some are more organized.) Players and coaches know when they have time off and when they have to work. Some assistant coaches at other schools are worked to death.
In business there are sometimes circumstances that cause a business to fall short of the projected outcome. Perhaps a critical machine breaks down or a crucial material shortage occurs or a workman with a skill critical to the operation of the business is unable to perform as is expected. In 2016 we had a circumstance that caused us to fall short of our projected outcome. One of our workmen with a skill critical to the operational success of our football team was unable to perform as was expected.
In business you don’t fire your management team over something they had no real control over.
Grey: I hope and sincerely want your bullish position to be rewarded. That is the best possible outcome for NC State and our collective enjoyment of the entertainment business that is NC State football.
As Raider Al said, “just win baby.” This season will tell us a lot. Many of the pieces are in place and seemingly the most of the DD era.
I think Grey ate some of the old chewing gum under the bingo table at the old folks home.
McCallum
He certainly has a way of talking in nonsensical circles.
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