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Well, on the bright side, now we know where the minutes will come from for the twins. Henderson and the twins will split SG/SF.
I suppose this also could increase the likelihood that Malik Newman will choose State, though I assume that is a long shot.
So tell me again about how no one was leaving? You were very critical of my assessment that transfers were almost a guarantee. What say ye now?
So tell me again about how no one was leaving? You were very critical of my assessment that transfers were almost a guarantee. What say ye now?
1. I say that you really haven’t changed your posting style much.
2. You weren’t posting about players “leaving”, you were posting about players transferring. So Lacey going pro early doesn’t support the viewpoint you were representing in our previous exchange on this subject.
3. You misrepresented the facts at that time, saying that Gott was averaging 2 transfers/year. I pointed out that you misrepresented the facts. I pointed out that after the initial flurry that I attributed to the coaching change, Gott had averaged 1 transfer per year, not 2. Lo and behold, we see that 1 player will transfer out this offseason. So, as of right now, to the extent that one of us was “wrong” in the exchange, it was you.
Probably not the answers you were looking for.
It is a different landscape than the late ’70’s when I was on campus but Sloan seemed to always have transfers as well. Not so sure that even with Rick’s stats the situation is that much different today as back then. At least today those that turn pro have a chance to earn money for their ability. Most not in the NBA but that is not the only possibility. Had I had such an opportunity I’m not so sure I could have stayed the course. The question at hand is what happens next for the program and for Gott. At this point I’m watching and waiting.
Let’s play a fun game. Add in the players who have left knowing they would not be drafted in the first round
Raymond, de Thaey, Painter, Harris, Purvis, Lewis, Washington all transfers That would be an average of 1 3/4 per year.
Brown, Leslie and now Lacey left with no guaranteed NBA contract. We are losing an average of 2 1/2 players annually (who have no hope of being drafted in the first round) before their eligibility is up.And that is why you never want a recruiting class of 0.
That is why a “lack of experience” is never an accaptable excuse. You have to win now with the players you have because you are going to lose them.
That is why “not playing together” is not a valid excuse. The team is not going to stay together for long periods of time so you must develop chemistry quickly.So tell me again about how no one was leaving? You were very critical of my assessment that transfers were almost a guarantee. What say ye now?
1. I say that you really haven’t changed your posting style much.
2. You weren’t posting about players “leaving”, you were posting about players transferring. So Lacey going pro early doesn’t support the viewpoint you were representing in our previous exchange on this subject.
3. You misrepresented the facts at that time, saying that Gott was averaging 2 transfers/year. I pointed out that you misrepresented the facts. I pointed out that after the initial flurry that I attributed to the coaching change, Gott had averaged 1 transfer per year, not 2. Lo and behold, we see that 1 player will transfer out this offseason. So, as of right now, to the extent that one of us was “wrong” in the exchange, it was you.
Probably not the answers you were looking for.
What praytell did I misrepresent? I said he had 6 transfers in three years which averaged 2 transfers a year. That is a fact. If you want to make up time frames to support your argument have at it. I took his entire NCSU career and looked at it. I would say if anyone is misrepresenting anything it is the one who is making up time frames to support their argument.
But I digress. This started because I said having a zero recruit class is a bad thing and one of the reasons is because we lose players. I did not even contemplate a player would be so ready to get out he would declare for a draft in whcih he would not be drafted. Add in the transfer and we have seven players. Would you like to arrgue that having only seven scholarship players is a good thing?
What praytell did I misrepresent? I said he had 6 transfers in three years which averaged 2 transfers a year. That is a fact.
Fact: This is Gott’s 5th offseason as State’s head coach.
Fact: During those 5 offseasons, he has had 8 players transfer out of the program: Harrow, TDT, Raymond, Harris, Painter, Purvis, Lewis, Washington
Fact: The first 5 of those transfers occurred in the first 2 offseasons.
Fact: Harrow’s transfer was due to coaching turnover.
Opinion: The TDT, Raymond, and Harris transfers were due to coaching turnover, once those players played one year under Gott and saw how he would use them (or not).
Fact: Painter transferred out due to a family situation.
Fact: Gott has had 3 of ‘his’ recruits transfer out: Purvis, Lewis, and Washington.
Opinion: TDT, Raymond, Harris, Lewis, and Washington transferred out due to lack of playing time.
Opinion: So far, Painter is the only transfer out that actually negatively impacted the program.
Fact: To offset these transfers out, Gott has brought in 5 transfers: Johnson, Turner, Lacey, Lee, Henderson.
Opinion: The net transfer results have been a net positive to the program.IMO a reasonable person would boil the above down to the fact that Gott has lost one of his own recruits each of the past 3 offseasons, which are the offseasons after the coaching turnover. Those transfers have mostly been due to concern over playing time. That is not atypical in major college basketball today. When combined with the transfers in, Gott has managed this well IMO.
As for players leaving early to go pro, that has certainly hurt the program, as Brown, Leslie, Warren, and Lacey would have all been difference makers if they stayed. It appears that Warren made the right decision. Brown and Lacey were kind of in the same boat. No one can really know if Brown made the right decision; he is in the NBA and has probably made a lot of money already, and no one can know for sure how his path would have been different had he stayed. Same deal for Lacey. I can’t begrudge either of them making that decision. In Leslie’s case, he probably actually hurt himself by staying a year longer than he should have. But, again, I can’t begrudge him that decision.
Bottom line, if you successfully recruit players at the talent level of Leslie, Brown, Warren, Lacey, Purvis, Lewis, Abu, Cat, Anya, et al., some of them are going to be good enough that they will leave early to go pro; some are going to be good enough to earn minutes that make them happy, so they will stay; and others aren’t going to be good enough to earn minutes that make them happy, so they will transfer out. Would you prefer that Gott instead recruit less talented players? I wouldn’t.
Would you like to arrgue that having only seven scholarship players is a good thing?
I have never made such an argument, and, in fact, I specifically posted about it yesterday in response to a VaWolf post in one of these threads. Frankly, it’s a stupid question, as no one would answer that it is a good thing. Does asking a stupid question somehow prove a point in your mind?
Gott was hired on April 5, 2011. That is 4 years and ten days. So why are you referencing “five offseasons”? LOL
I am giving Gott the benefit of Harrow as he never had a chance at him. But to call it “five off seasons” is just flat out a “misrepresentation”. It is you and not I that are twisting things to fit your narrative.
11 players have left with eligibility reamaining. How many have left with none?
Howell
Turner
Lee
Alez Johnson
Did I miss any others?
That is not a rosy picture no matter how you slice it.Assumption should be added to fact/opinion.
O commits does in no way, shape or form, equal no quality new signees.
R-E-L-A-X
Rick…your slip is showing. Tau has always had the upperhand in this debate…friendly advice.
It is not a rosy picture, for sure. There are certainly valid reasons for why a player leaves, especially with a coaching transition. But this is becoming habitual. Kyle Washington could have CERTAINLY helped us. Especially considering Anya and/or Abu may not remain another year or two.
And Gott really should publicly wish Lacey well. He’s doing himself no favors in the press.
If I’m not mistaken, Lacey announced the day his coach was having a cardio proceedure.
If that is correct, who truly made a public disservice?
If I’m not mistaken, Lacey announced the day his coach was having a cardio proceedure.
If that is correct, who truly made a public disservice?
I agree that there is no reason to criticize Gott for a lack of responce especially given his medical condition. I hope he recovers fully and does not hurt himself rushing to respond to this. Your health is far more important.
Gott was hired on April 5, 2011. That is 4 years and ten days. So why are you referencing “five offseasons”? LOL
Offseason 1: April 5, 2011 – Fall 2011 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 2: March 24, 2012 – Fall 2012 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 3: March 23, 2013 – Fall 2013 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 4: March 21, 2014 – Fall 2014 (whenever practice officially began)
Offseason 5: March 28, 2015 – Fall 2015 (whenever practice will officially begin)Sorry, I was operating under the assumption that I was talking to a bunch of State grads here, and thus that fundamental counting was allowed.
Or are you for some reason defining an offseason as only the last few days of March and first few days of April, meaning Gott missed the entire 2011 offseason?
The fact is that there have been 5 distinct offseason periods in which we have experienced roster change during Gott’s tenure. In each of the first 4, we had one or more players transfer out, one or more players transfer in, and multiple recruits join the program.
The 5th offseason is in progress and thus incomplete. We have seen that one player will transfer out, and I fully expect that we will ultimately see one or more players transfer in and one or more recruits join the program. If so, then it will be like every one of the previous offseasons in Gott’s tenure.
11 players have left with eligibility reamaining. How many have left with none?
Howell
Turner
Lee
Alez Johnson
Did I miss any others?12 scholarship players have left the program with eligibility remaining: Harrow, TDT, Raymond, Harris, Painter, Brown, Leslie, Purvis, Lewis, Warren, Washington, and Lacey. (This assumes Jevoni Robinson was not a scholarship player.)
At least 8 scholarship players have completed their eligibility in the program during Gott’s 4 seasons: Johnson, C.J. Williams, Howell, Wood, Vandenburg, Turner, Lee, Battle. (We also had seniors Kendall Smith and Jay Lewis complete their eligibility in the program under Gott, but I don’t know if they were scholarship players.)
Once again, I am not making up some term to improve my statistics. I took the time frame Gott was here.
Nonetheless let’s go by the made up “offseason” terminology you seem to set on referencing…During all of these “offseasons” how many players have left a Gott coached NCSU without any eligibility remaining? I have come up with seven names ( I forgot Scott Wood, CJ Williams and Vandy). That means of the 19 players that have left NCSU in the “five offseasons” since Gott came on board (I added Harrow at your insistence) only seven have left with no more eligibility. That means 63% of the players under Gott leave before they use up their eligibility and only one of those left for a guaranteed NBA first round contract.
That is a big concern I don’t care how many “offseasons” you divide it by.I edited my post to add CJ Williams. I am not including Battle no more than I would include Wallace as they were both walkons.
That is a big concern I don’t care how many “offseasons” you divide it by.
+1000 to the x power!!!!!
I am not making up some term to improve my statistics.
Are you suggesting I made up the term ‘offseason’? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that used elsewhere.
Having said that, I think we’ve beaten this horse to death. You’ve made your point that you see attrition under Gott as a big concern. As of right now, I’m not concerned, because (a) I recognize this issue as being part of major college basketball today, at least for programs who recruit a lot of top 100 players, and (b) I expect Gott to bring in sufficient reinforcements.
If one or more additional players depart this offseason, I will be concerned. But for now, I suggest we agree to disagree.
tau,
Fair point. I can agree to disagree.
I see some good trends with Gott (overall records are pretty good and post season has been better than expected).
And I see some ones that concern me.
Hopefully things get better and not worse.If I’m not mistaken, Lacey announced the day his coach was having a cardio proceedure.
Maybe that is true and maybe it isn’t. No where has that been reported to my knowledge. Two sources say Gott declined comment. That could be the reason, or it couldn’t.
But even so, I think it is fair to suggest he could make a simple statement the day after, assuming he is well. No?
‘Foose…So glad to see that I’m not the only one to keep an open mind on the reincarnation thing.
I was lumberjack in the great NW in a previous.
…so 2 different empathists say.
Personally, I believe in the multi-verse. Somewhere I hold Rick’s beliefs, and he holds mine.
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