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I thought WBS stood for White Ball Skills
PHRASING!!!!
Whoever deleted my post- thank you. That guy is getting under my skin with all his negative posts and campaigning. Don’t know what the axe grinding is about and might be more empathetic if I knew the whole story.
It might have been me. I deleted several that resorted to name-calling instead of rebuttal.
I find myself in a strange position in that I disagree with both the rosy-projections (which to be honest is nothing new) and the woe-is-me position. So rather than add to the opinion-based arguments, I’ll just stand on the sidelines for now.
That’s pretty much where I
am, too. I have no idea how this team will do next year. Way too many questions left to be answered.I do think many in the fan base are giving Gott a pass for what looks to be a pattern of losing kids each year. I have no idea why that is the case. I do not see this same pattern at similarly situated programs. It actually isn’t even close. This is now his rep and we should frankly expect it to happen yet again next season.
Sorry, kids, didn’t mean to cause so much trouble!
Back to the topic at hand, I think the defense will be much better both by addition (Abu is supposed to be really good), subtraction (WBS and Vandy were our two worst defenders), and by moving BSW off the 2. He will still be a below-average defender at the 3, but not “avert thine eyes” bad.
Losing entire recruiting classes due to transfers is a problem. Good recruiting classes that stay together for 2-3 seasons is what builds championship caliber programs.
Gottfried’s better than Lowe, but so far I do not see the program in a position to take the next step up to challenge the top tier of the conference on a regular basis.
Ha, and Doc is right, I need to be careful nobody thinks I’m calling Anya Karl Hess. That truly would be disparaging, and why would I do that to…My. Favorite. Player.
Anyway, now that I’m kinda sorta over having my guts ripped out by the SL game (thanks, Shadow Pack – you totally helped!), I am cautiously optimistic to see this group play. The Shadow Pack also showed us how much of a difference twin power* can make.
*That’s not meant to be any kind of-ist, I have identical twin daughters and “twin powers” is a lifelong running joke.
** If interested, there are four numerated twin powers: speed, strength, balance, and bravery. And they only work for “real” twins (ie, identicals), not “fake” ones.
*** Why would anyone have a problem with transfers coming IN? Hell, I think they need to be considered as “offsets” to transfers going out. Not taking them would just be shooting ourselves in the foot. Transfers will remain part of the game, whether we like it or not. Alex Johnson and BSW have definitely been positive for NC State, and I have no doubt Trevor Lacey will be as well.
*** Why would anyone have a problem with transfers coming IN?
They obviously were rabble-rousers at their previous stops and thus had to depart. We don’t need that kind of baggage at NCSU. (The birth of Trans-ism)
And don’t get me started on those darned JuCo’s.
I am not concerned with the transfers for a couple reasons, but let’s look at them:
Purvis – wanted to be THE man and was not ready to be THE man. Got beat out for his position and left for immediate (sitting out a year immediate) gratification. Also an attitude and locker room distraction so good riddance.
Lewis – love the hustle, the court IQ, but the skills were not there to be the starter. He wants to leave to get some PT and either he saw the writing on the wall OR Gott told him Cat was going to be the man moving forward. Can’t blame him.
Harris – Was an add-on when we needed bodies. Was not going to be a superstar. Dad also thought he should have been the go-to guy. Dad was a big problem. Another cancer in the locker room so good riddance.
Raymond – see Harris above, not going to get much PT at this level. Averaged 6.5 PPG at Middle Tennessee.
DeThaey – who knows how much PT he would have gotten. Nice body to bang inside but not sure if the skills were suitable for D-1. No harm especially since he seemed to also be a locker room problem.
In each case except Tyler, these are additions by subtraction. In Tyler’s case, maybe Gott encouraged him to go elsewhere where he would get more pt. Maybe Tyler decided on his own.
I think the biggest challenge for a coach at a program like NCSU isn’t getting top flight talent. We’ve seen our worst coaches get top players. In addition to coaching, retention is a big challenge. These days, kids are going to leave, that’s a given. In my mind, you don’t minimize that by giving kids playing time or promising time. I think you really have to look at the character of the kid and be upfront with him. It’s tough sitting on the pine if you’ve never done it. I think the defections, so far, are more a result of Sid’s leftovers, or last minute recruits brought in by Gott to achieve some balance and depth. Now that he’s achieved that, I expect there to be fewer defections. The Lewis and Purvis transfers don’t bother me at all, nor do the others. Going forward, it will bother me more. And if I don’t see improvement in defense, the combo of defections and lack of improvement is really a bad omen.
So rather than add to the opinion-based arguments…
Oh, come on. Jump in like the rest of us! Facts, schmacts, who needs ’em. Step outside your comfort zone!
LOL, thanks for the level-set, Va. I react emotionally to nonfactual posts by posting one of my own. Nice. You don’t miss much, do ya?
The FAR SIDE was popular during my days at State and it was interesting how a single frame would make some people LOL and others go “meh”. Thanks AugustaWolf for the Mary Kate and Ashley line. Btown, read SFN for a few years and racists won’t come to mind. Posters love these players. The outside world takes a small sampling of SFN and decides the State fan base is full of —holes and I’m glad they do. Nothing to see here, move along. I’ll take a small group of actual grads over an overladen bandwagon full of tools any day of the week.
As far as next year, TL is not the missing link that breaks the chain and dooms another season. Ten quality players within the rotation is something I can’t readily recall over the past forty years. I’m betting on Kill Bill Cat per BJD.
Transfers happen. It’s a part of the game now. All I can do is wish the ones well that leave, and welcome the ones that come in. Unless you can: A. Offer “incentives” like the Holes seem to be able to do to persuade people to stay or B. Are a perennial nation powerhouse, you are going to lose players. It sucks, but it is just the way it is. It only becomes a problem if you stop being able to bring in new people to replace the ones you lose, which heretofore we have been able to do. When the offseason is all said and done, and we take stock of the team we have, I think we are going to be pleasantly surprised.
Lewis was unhappy sharing with two other guards, so with Lacey becoming eligible, it was a very likely scenario, so not surprised at all. I just hope that Cat has learned from Tyler in doing the little things a point guard must do well, like passing people open, knowing when to just probe vs. driving in on the mini break, and just generally organizing the plan of attack in any given offensive possession. Getting the ball to our bigs in a position to score or rebound is a huge part of this. The rest of the package is there, a tall-ish, quick guard that can rise up for the jumper and aggravate opposing point guards, drawing charges. Working alongside a “vet” like Lacey should help the process. Regarding next year as a whole, I don’t remember us having this much talent in the back and front court at the same time, and we’ve gone through a few candidate point guards (and two coaching changes) to get here.
Off topic, my apologies. But a few keep talking about our transfers like it is some kind of disease spawned by Gottfried.
Virginia and Tony Bennett (who I hope people will accept as having a successful season), had a hellacious time with transfers when he took over.
“Virginia basketball coach Tony Bennett is only 42 years old, but he cited a generational shift Monday when asked why college basketball players are transferring at a higher rate.
“It’s a different time, it really is,” Bennett said of players who desire more playing time early in their careers. “I think everybody goes through that, it’s just guys are acting on it more now than they did in the past.”
Most of Gotts transfers were not his recruits. I don’t think it’s fair to compare programs that have had coaches in place for a while with coaches coming into a program. Gott had a major rebuilding job to do on a number of fronts, and this is just fallout from that.
Some more from Bennett:
“Q: Joe and Akil (Mitchell) are the last two remaining members of your first recruiting class. Is it kind of rewarding to watch them be a part of such a successful season so far, considering all the ups and downs (and transfers) there have been over the last few years?A: Of course, yeah. That was my first recruiting class. I got the job and I remember the vision and what we talked about was trying together. There were six of them when they came in, and those are the only two left. We really talked about trying to be part of turning Virginia basketball around and bringing a level of quality that would be noticeable. We used this a lot: We’re going to have learn to lose together first, before we win.
We’re going to have to go through ups and downs. You go through adversity when you’re at the top. But you’re trying to build a program and the fact that those guys stayed so faithful, have been through the hard stuff and kept that vision in their mind … now last year and this year, they’re having some success. There’s nothing more gratifying for me than to see the players who have stuck with it get to see that and be part of turning something around. I’m very thankful they’re experiencing it.”
*I find it terribly offensive that we should be labeled based on some sportscaster calling us a pack of wolves. Instead we should be the Cotton Tails because a rabbit never hurt anyone and we should wear pink which would look good when we play that powder puff blue school. Oh, I hope you don’t think pink represents the Caucasian race and excludes the rest of the world.
As to transfers, they are becoming much more common. And as someone referenced he knew of no similar school with so many transfers, be sure to compare us with a team who has a 3rd year coach. Change in coaching regimes cause transfers. Lewis was a Lowe recruit. I love him and we will miss him, but we will be fine without him. Gott once said that sometimes the recruit you take hurts you more than the recruit you missed. This reference was to bringing in someone who takes up one of your 13 scholarships but does not contribute. I’m not saying Lewis was not worth the scholarship but this point explains the value of bringing in a transfer, a player of good caliber that will provide immediate help but not keep a slot 4 years when you may be able to get a much higher caliber recruit, and it explains the value of someone transferring out. If they are not going to be a great contributer, example Raymond and DeThaey, let them go and bring in those 4 and 5 stars. In this day with volatile personnel, transfers are a great way to manage class size until you get a much more stable (Coach in program 1/2 doz years or more) program. And even then, if you are getting the great recruits, you will lose them to the draft and transfers may be needed.
*Total BS I am a Wolfpacker thru and thru
Re: Transfers and Talent…
Transfers:
RedCanine posted an interesting statistic… over the weekend… 10% of D1 Men’s Basketball players are transferring each season now… As others have suggested, this appears to have increased over the recent past but exactly how much is uncertain. Although, Red extrapolated this statistic to conclude 40% of D1 Men’s Basketball players transfer over a four year period… I am hesitant to do that for several reasons…
1. Some guys transfer more than once…
2. Some guys don’t play four years…
3. The language is fuzzy and could be easily construed to read “40% of D1 Men’s Basketball transfer during their four year eligibility period.
4. There is no consideration given to the impact of coaching changes…In any case, we may be “past due” in rethinking how we look at transfer rates…
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That said, Transfer rates or raw numbers should be broken down and analyzed before making serious conclusions… perhaps the same way a business looks at employee turnover….
For our purposes… let’s separate transfers from kids opting in to the NBA draft… and look only at transfers to other schools.
So let’s look at that “transfer rate” by eligibility year… against this framework…
Group 1. First year transfers…
Group 2. Fourth year transfers…
Group 3. Everybody else…Given continuity in Coaches…. and some hypothetical ‘exit interview’ stuff… perhaps the following “conclusions” can be reached…
1. Transfers in groups 1 & 3 are expected and should rarely come as surprises (to coaches)… In fact, if you don’t have some transfers in these groups… you’re probably NOT recruiting hard enough…
2. If transfers in Group 3 are greater in number than Group 1 & 2 combined, then there is a problem somewhere that requires closer examination…
3. If transfers in Groups 2 & 3 are rare… then you’re doing a lot better than most all of your competitors…
All this changes dramatically…when there are Coaching changes… especially a Head Coach who brings in a new staff…
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Top Talent:
I would be hesitant to claim that we are recruiting “Top-level Talent”… regardless of the number of stars the kids have…
I would be safe, I think, in claiming that we are recruiting the top levels of the second tier of talent… as each of our most recent “top recruits” appears to have at least one area —
athleticism,
conditioning,
BB-IQ,
grades/test scores,
work ethic,
leadership— that “has significant room for improvement”… the notable exception to this perhaps being … CUZ…
The only point to be made here is that it is reasonable to think there would be a direct correlation between true talent level and transfer rates in programs that are attempting to improve their overall competitiveness. That is to say… given a team’s competitive level (the average of the players talent levels)… more players with below average talent levels will transfer than those with higher talent levels.
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At the end of the day… it may also be useful to remember that anything we say or think here at SFN… The Coaches already knew… and have, for the most part, done everything they can do to effectively manage the same…. to this point in time.
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Proving that even an idiot can sometimes be useful, Goodman has a transfer list showing that over 500 kids transferred schools in 2013.
He claims to have done this for six years, but I don’t care enough to look for any of his older lists.
This seems to dispute the claim that transfers are only 10% per year:
NCAA president Mark Emmert made them a frontburner issue in May when he expressed concern over the fact that 40 percent of men’s basketball players are not at their original school by the end of their sophomore year
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/luke_winn/07/18/up-transfers-NCAA-basketball/
^In fairness to Red… his “down and dirty” numbers were 450 out of 4,500 D1 players… the year was not specified…
4,500 / 13 => 346 teams/schools more or less…
Quoting from the link directly above….
The overall Division I transfer rate for men’s basketball players, according to the most recent data available from the NCAA, remained in the range of 10.0 to 10.7 percent from 2003-04 to 2009-10, without a clear upward trendline.
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!So what yer sayin’ is, when someone states, “…other schools don’t have this issue…not by a longshot,” this individual should not be taken seriously.
Mr. Dog…
Basically… that’s right…In more detail…
Ten percent out of 12 or 13 players on the roster… roughly equals 4 transfers every 3 years… unless there’s a way to transfer less than a whole player… (No bubbleguts jokes… please)…Then… we need to know whether or not a Coaching change in in play or not… everybody agrees, I think, these teams have higher transfer rates during the transition period and need to be viewed separately…
Now if we are just talking about schools with coaching continuity…
Then… let’s draw a line in the sand … and say…1. If a school is averaging 1 transfer or less every two years… they clearly don’t have the same problems a lot of other teams have… (think Dook, maybe, for one… )…
2. If a school is averaging 2 or more each year…. they got “the problem” bad… and need to head to the ICU… (think UCLA just a couple seasons ago…)…
3. And everybody else is more or less ‘normal’… whatever ‘normal’ is… these days…
That said… the number of transfers in any one year could vary significantly and should be evaluated with some skepticism without clear evidence to the underlying causes… and probably ought not be used as a baseline to extrapolate a trend or pattern…
Then as you suggest… any other “conclusions”… would most likely NOT warrant serious consideration… Repeated offenses could definitely erode that person’s credibility.
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!Mr. Dog…<br>
Basically… that’s right…In more detail…<br>
Ten percent out of 12 or 13 players on the roster… roughly equals 4 transfers every 3 years… unless there’s a way to transfer less than a whole player… (No bubbleguts jokes… please)…Then… we need to know whether or not a Coaching change in in play or not… everybody agrees, I think, these teams have higher transfer rates during the transition period and need to be viewed separately…<br>
<br>
Now if we are just talking about schools with coaching continuity…<br>
Then… let’s draw a line in the sand … and say…1. If a school is averaging 1 transfer or less every two years… they clearly don’t have the same problems a lot of other teams have… (think Dook, maybe, for one… )…
2. If a school is averaging 2 or more each year…. they got “the problem” bad… and need to head to the ICU… (think UCLA just a couple seasons ago…)…
3. And everybody else is more or less ‘normal’… whatever ‘normal’ is… these days…
That said… the number of transfers in any one year could vary significantly and should be evaluated with some skepticism without clear evidence to the underlying causes… and probably ought not be used as a baseline to extrapolate a trend or pattern…
Then as you suggest… any other “conclusions”… would most likely NOT warrant serious consideration… Repeated offenses could definitely erode that person’s credibility.
So Bill you exclude Dook – but how many transfers have the Dookies had? Without the numbers in front of me, I think they average one per year. Should we be concerned about the Dook program and K’s leadership too?
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