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I have been a State fan for nearly 40 years. I have never been as disappointed as I was last night, and that covers a lot of disappointment. It’s not any one thing, any one of which could have produced a winning result. It’s everything that would produce more consistent winning results.
Last night was all about coaching. Offensive talent is easy to come by. State can put the numbers up. Defense must be taught. Players out of position, not rotating, not sticking with their man, leaving the only person on the court hurting you wide open for 3’s. St. Louis never gave up, which is something State does regularly. If you are willing to accept less than your expectations, you will always get what you accept not what you expect.
Free throws! Enough said. State cannot even begin to blame the refs for last night. I see 5 more wins this season including last night if you just make 1 or 2 more free throws a game. Given the team’s dismal 65.7% effort for the season how many points were left on the table? An increase of 10% to what State averaged prior to the last 2 coaches would produce about 90 points per season assuming a few of the misses were the front end of a 1/1. That extra 3 points a game wins 5 games straight up. Little things add up to big things.
Intangibles. Moving without the ball. Blocking out and rebounding position. Helping your teammates handle the press. Not dribbling the ball off your own foot. HEART! NCSU has not had that for years in either of the revenue sports. When do we get a coach who understands and coaches fundamentals? It’s not like we have a bunch of 1 and done players that you don’t have time to work with. We mostly lose players because they don’t see a path to success at State. Winners win and losers go home to think about what could have been.
I am thoroughly disgusted.
I wonder if Gottfried got his heart stuck in his throat, when these mistakes you see emerged. I for one had a hard timing watching once the free throw bricks started. Herb had moments like that, frozen on the sidelines, hoping the players can right the ship. Something definitely changed and it pervaded the entire team. I never see WBS travel like that in the backcourt. They just got overwhelmed by the moment, and…regressed for those moments.
With all due respect, some of the opinions being posted in this thread are ridiculous.
“Last night was all about coaching.”
BS. In the last 5 minutes of regulation, we had 16 possessions. On those possessions, we were 1/4 from the floor, 9/20 from the free throw line (with one miss on the front end of a 1-and-1, so more like 9/21), and had 2 turnovers. Gott had the right lineup in for the press, they just didn’t handle it well and couldn’t make free throws. That is not the fault of the coaching staff.
“St. Louis never gave up, which is something State does regularly.”
Again, this is complete and total BS. Not only that, it is one of the worst insults that can be said about a team. State didn’t give up in this game and does not do so “regularly.”
“I have been a State fan for nearly 40 years. I have never been as disappointed as I was last night…”
You have a short memory if this was your biggest disappointment in the past 40 years of State athletics. Just last season, our first game NCAA tournament loss was much more disappointing, given the talent and expectations on that team.
These quotes are all examples from a recent post, but many others have been equally off base. This team wasn’t even in the top 300 in terms of experience this year, yet exceeded expectations in the regular season and the postseason. Gott isn’t Valvano, but he did a good job with this team. Anyone who disagrees with that has an unrealistic perspective on what should have been expected of this team.
If this is a low point and the most disappointing event in your State history. You must have forgotten the last 30 years.
Sorry for the long post….woman’s prerogative. To me this is what I saw.
Last night’s game illustrated why it is so important to do well in the regular season. That’s why I get so PO’d about the ref situation. When we have games literally stolen from us, it puts our team in an awful position. If you don’t fight for our team about that injustice, I don’t want to hear crap from you in the post season.
If you start the ACCT playing on Weds, there’s only a slim chance that you will make it to Friday much less Sunday. Why? Stamina. A game is not just physical but even more so, psychological. These are kids. These players are not robots that perform at optimal level every game. That’s why teams have “let downs” after playing really great. It happens to the best of teams. A coach has to know his team. Gott did his job. His team peaked for the NCAAT on Tues. That was our BEST game of the season.
A loooooooooooooong, loooooooooooooong time ago when I played basketball (and I’m sure other folks that have played sports can attest), I attended a HS basketball prep camp near Andersonville, GA. It was one of those elite scouting, meat-market camps. I TRAINED just for this camp. (A local HS coach got me the invite) When I saw the schedule, I thought that I was going to have all this spare time. Two games a day. Bleachers lined with coaches. In between games, time was distributed with group talks from coaches about the sport an “light” interviews to gauge interest. There weren’t so many coaches in the beginning. Towards the end of the camp, the bleachers became fuller.
After about the third day, I was sore as could be. My feet felt like concrete. My mind was telling me where I needed to be (training from 5am practices when your mind really isn’t there but you are physically going through the motions- ok there is a slight robot factor) but my body just couldn’t get to all the spots on the floor where I needed to be. Tyler was taking shortcuts. Raulston too. I wasn’t thinking about team. I was thinking about positional space because of exhaustion. I was hoping my teammate would be at certain spaces to compensate for my not being where I needed to be. We were all tired and hadn’t played together so that was tough.
I really just wanted to tackle the amazing point guard from Philly really. Hated her- cocky, talented little XXXXXX. My strategy was to find the weakest 1-3 player on the other team so that my skills could be highlighted. In the end, it was just an attempt to not embarrass myself. I was looking for the path of least resistance. That’s what I saw out of State last night.
When you’re tired, you find yourself thinking about every minute details and forgetting the big picture. Taking the extra step to meet the ball. Lining up with your man on defense. Standing on the line and thinking of every shooting mechanic and then thinking, man my legs feel wobbly- that’s ok- concentrate on the front of the rim. But you fell out of rhythm, shot disjointed and miss free throw. Another example is guessing where the ball is going to be thrown on defense vs playing denial, thus taking yourself out of team defense position on man coverage. No help defense. I also saw the wrong people standing underneath the basket.
Also when your legs aren’t moving the way they are supposed to, your shot comes up short. In your mind, you know that you are spent so you overcompensate. Did you see how high Raulston got on that last shot? He was overcompensating. He gave it all he had and very nearly came through. That was good form.
I also saw Tyler dribbling to much and his teammates not cutting the way they were on Tues…they were hoping Tyler would just create the passing lanes for them (and this was early on). They were tired. At the end of the game, Tyler ran away from the ball. He didn’t want the ball. That’s not Tyler. Exhausted.
For folks that thought Beejay should have been in the game at the end…maybe, but the kid couldn’t make it up and down the court at the 10 min mark. Unless we planted him at one end of the court, the outcome wasn’t going to be super great. He was spent. Gott realized this. Usually this is not a problem for the big, fuzzy guy but 5 games in 7 days and everything that came with it….he did good.
THIS TEAM HAS HEART. That’s what got them the lead. The stamina is where they lost it. The problem was when it went bad. It went really bad. It hurts. I guarantee it hurt them more than us. It’s like a train wreck. That happens to “connected” teams. Young teams feed off of each other. TJ was a leader out there. He did the best he could motivating these guys. He had buy-in. I am SO going to miss him. He is FANTASTIC. The best player I have seen in years at State. Phenomenal.
That’s what we saw last night from TJ and Tyler. Vandy’s long skinny heart wanted that win more than anybody on the court badly. As a result, he was out of position for the plays which we needed him to make (post area). He was trying to help his little buddies on the wing and high post protecting against the 3 point shot- he was more rested than they were. He really is a “person pleaser.” That’s enduring- I will miss him too. His little buddies weren’t helping him. Exhaustion.
Again, I don’t think this is a result of conditioning but schedule. Regular season and NCAAT positioning matters. REFS MATTER. I wasn’t expecting them to make the dance. They’ve exceeded my hopes. They are not rebuilding a team but rebuilding a program. It takes time and we have already seen immediate results. Amazing.
After Low and Sendeck, Gott looks like Phil Jackson. He’s had to completely change the culture of that program and has done an awesome job so far. Change like that doesn’t happen overnight. After being last in the conference year after year (and RECENTLY), that would be my most embarrassing moment in NC State history. Losing to BC with a team full of talent under Low. How does that happen?
I like this team and I like our coach. Could some things have been done differently? Maybe. I have been a fan for forty plus years and I have seen some real lows and some good highs. Was not a HS or SL fan. Glad they are gone and probably stayed too long. For the ones on here calling for a new coach I feel sorry for you. You know who you are and at least you are not shy about it. You are the reason we get the bad rap as the lunatic fringe. Damn right I said it. Blast me if want I don’t care. Three straight trips to the NCAA is a good start for me. Especially when this year was sort of a long shot. For those who think we have underperformed two out three years, wrong we exceeded two out of three years.
Thank you Dr. Wufette, well spoken/written.
For those saying we need a new coach, Shaka Smart also lost tonight. Fire him, he was a 5 seed and lost to a 12. Sorry, I cannot let it go, all those complaining about Gott. Gott gott us to 3 tourneys in a row and the future is bright. Is it perfect? No – but the sun is shining, unlike several Les, HWSNBN, Sid years.
Coach K lost today as well. That’s with 2 lottery picks and a strong supporting cast. He used to be a good coach, but he obviously sucks now. Fire him!! Fire the AD!! Fire the whole damn bunch!!
Oh, and did you see how K just stood there on the sidelines and choked? You could see it in his eyes. He was clearly intimidated and didn’t know what to do.Yep, some real rocket surgeons around here.
i feel a sharks/jets showdown coming on…factions are breaking out.
More like whales/guppies, or lions/hamsters.
I just want to say I appreciate all you guys and ladies. All those that post, write, rant, rave, yell, glorify, etc., that’s what makes this so special. Sometimes it’s like being at an AA meeting or being at a bible study group. To hear others insight is knowledge and it also helps change my perceptions or to justify my thoughts. Even though I’ve never met a single one of you, I still consider you all friends. GO PACK!
P.S. And cheers to all of our livers being black.
I did not say I was calling for a coaching change, if that is what anyone inferred from my post. Please trust me that after all these years I am appreciative of what Gott and staff have done. The teams he has put on the floor are a lot more exciting than what we have seen out of the last 3 coaches. He does so many more things right than LR/HS/SL. His recruiting is as good as you could possibly expect.
However, I stand by what I said about fundamentals and coaching. Doing the little things that make a big difference. I don’t think players are robots who go out and are expected to put up perfect numbers. I know that the coaches can only instruct them and hope for the best. But, coaching makes a difference when you are tired. Not to get off track but, IMO Duke lost to Mercer because K does not coach the same brand of bball he did a few years ago. Mercer is a well coached team that used experience to defeat them.
Don’t you coach breaking the press? At the 8:23 mark the game was in hand. Over the next 3 minutes there were 2 turnovers and a missed 3 pointer. Sandwich 2 layups around a bunch of missed free throws and zero shot attempts from the floor over the next couple of minutes. Over the last few minutes State was out-rebounded 5 to 14. Little things add up over the course of a game and a season. The talent level of these teams is not that different. It normally comes down to match-ups and execution. State was “outscored” by 2.8 points per minute over the last 5:03 of regulation. SL was allowed to score 29 over the last 5 minutes of regulation. That is the same amount they scored in the first 25 minutes. Take a moment to let that sink in. That is a huge fact you cannot ignore.
You can use ESPN (cough) to look at the last 10 years season stats. While I do not believe that State was a better coached team overall at any time during the previous 7 years than the last 3, look at free throw shooting percentage. State has averaged just over 700 FTA’s per season over that time. It is amazing how consistent the number is. What is also glaring is that the percentage made has dropped precipitously over the last several years. These little things make a difference. NCCU made 41 out of 45 FT’s to beat State earlier this year. They took advantage of what was given to them.
“Again, this is complete and total BS. Not only that, it is one of the worst insults that can be said about a team. State didn’t give up in this game and does not do so “regularly.”
First thank you for the personal attack on my opinion. Maybe I was a little harsh about the heart comment but, I believe it’s fair to say that State has lost more games where they had a double digit lead than the reverse over recent history. I am taking a long term view even though that spans several coaches. Take the collapse against Duke a couple of years ago. It was precipitated by a really bad call and followed by a bunch of really bad no calls. But, at some point it got into the players heads that they could fail and they lost an 18 point lead and lost by around 8-10 points if my memory is correct. Or how about the Florida International game during Sendek’s time. There are more but, you get the point.
“You have a short memory if this was your biggest disappointment in the past 40 years of State athletics”.
Again, my disappointment was not over the fact that this was a “L” versus any other disappointment during that span. That would be a short term view. IMO, this “L” was way more preventable than most and that is why I vented. I appreciate it when the people who represent this school go out and give it their all wins/losses notwithstanding. Valvano lost his share but, they were always entertaining. Sometimes somebody else is just better. Sometimes there are blown calls at the end of a game on the sideline where a mugging by someone wearing blue takes place. My disappointment was over the complete collapse of mental focus that caused this. Maybe it’s too much to expect the killer instinct to be instilled in a young team but, when someone spots you 16 over a span of 32 minutes and then takes it back during 8 shouldn’t you look for the root cause? Am I not allowed to ask the question? I don’t believe that St. Louis was better but, they never lost their focus or gave up on themselves even with what would seem an insurmountable lead.
“i feel a sharks/jets showdown coming on…factions are breaking out.”
I’m not looking to pick a fight. Just venting. But, to digress a little, this is just like a business. The tiniest of details matter. Take care of those and the big things (W’s in this case) will follow.
Does anyone disagree with me that wins and losses are both normally caused by either coaching or execution? If you agree with that statement, which one was the culprit here? Then ask yourself this, is execution the end result of coaching or is it just luck?
Last night’s game illustrated why it is so important to do well in the regular season. That’s why I get so PO’d about the ref situation. When we have games literally stolen from us, it puts our team in an awful position. If you don’t fight for our team about that injustice, I don’t want to hear crap from you in the post season.
I am sorry if you misunderstood me about the refs but, you did. I will be the first one to call out the refs. There is no way you would possibly win a race against me on that point. Ask anyone who knows me. I know a former ref and we have had some spirited discussions about officiating in this conference. If even half of his stories are true, it would make the ACC look really bad. My point was that on Thursday night we (meaning the fans) did not have them to blame. Unless someone saw a bunch of no calls I missed. State had plenty of trips to the line. If the team deserved more then I apologize.
If you just read a tiny bit between the lines in my post, I was making the exact point that you did about post-season placement. I only came at it from a different direction and maybe it was more clear in my second post. If you make your free throws and do other little things like defend, you win more games. That gives you better seeding and you don’t have to play in a play-in game (twice). Are you old enough to recall the term Les Robinson Invitational?
I was worried about exhaustion setting in because of the schedule. But, isn’t that the job of the coach to see that coming? To ask the players, to see the signs, to substitute when you have a 16 point lead are are playing your 2nd game in 3 days?
The team missed free throws all year long, not just at the end of Thursday’s game. Look at the percentages. The only truly successful teams Sendek had shot lights out from 15 feet. You have to coach the importance of that.
In all of the discussions/lamentations I didn’t hear one person ask for Gott’s head on a stick. Not one. That being said 84PackFan hit the nail on the head. Sorry DrWuffette1day, sometimes it’s all about coaching, and this particular loss it was. One other thing that hit me in what 84 said was just how big a collapse this was. I didn’t have the numbers but my feelings told me it was a dumpster fire and the coaching staff did nothing (my perception) to fix it. Remember, perception overrides truth every day of the week. Everything you said may well be truth DrWuffette1day but the perception of some of us is the staff lost this game. I saw the same thing happen when we played UNX. Did we get robbed by the refs? Yep, but the perception was we couldn’t handle the pressure. I’d be willing to bet 100 dollars to a doughnut the St. Louis coaches saw that on film and said “if we are behind this is our most favorable path to victory”. The problem is they were right. The coaching staff did NOT fix that letdown. Say what you want but St. Louis won with pressure, simply because we had no answer for it. And the reason we had no answer was because the coaches did not recognize this as a glaring weakness. The biggest rule of war is expose and exploit the weaknesses of your enemy and that’s exactly what they did, AND THE LEADERS (COACHES) ALLOWED THEM TO DO IT. Gott REALLY needs to learn from this. PERIOD. Breaking pressure is FUNDAMENTAL!
Smarter than the average bear
Thursday night was not one of Gott’s finer coaching moments. Most are able to see that. If you aren’t, I’d love to know where to find a pair of those rose colored glasses.
I wonder if Gottfried got his heart stuck in his throat, when these mistakes you see emerged. I for one had a hard timing watching once the free throw bricks started. Herb had moments like that, frozen on the sidelines, hoping the players can right the ship. Something definitely changed and it pervaded the entire team. I never see WBS travel like that in the backcourt. They just got overwhelmed by the moment, and…regressed for those moments.
Jeremy, I missed your post at first. I apologize to everyone for blowing up the message board with long posts but, I had to defend my basket. I am going to post one more thing I had written but decided to skip previously…
I have one more thing I have to say on fundamentals. I will preface this by acknowledging that there have been major changes in the game over the last 40 years. I know that John Wooden’s teams were stacked with talent from a different era of recruiting and rules.
When UCLA was so successful, Wooden had a reputation for discipline and consistency. The first day a new recruit started practice, he was re-taught how to tie his shoes. Sounds stupid right? It was said that you could take a player from any of his teams that put them on another without any loss of consistency. Little things like that make a difference. You can’t argue with 10 championships in 11 years.
The thing that really set Wooden apart was how rampantly he cheated and how a docile press let him get away with it. It was a dirty era, but Wooden was dirty even by prevailing standards at the time.
Probably BJD, but I seem to recall that State couldn’t play for the ’73 championship for recruiting violations. So, don’t get me wrong here but, we don’t have a lot of high ground to stand on. I bet you could find a lot of old timers that would say Everett Case had an unfair advantage also.
Besides, UNX cheats (and gets by with it) as much as anyone ever has and they have not been that successful.
Over the last few minutes State was out-rebounded 5 to 14. Little things add up over the course of a game and a season.
I assume you are talking about regulation. Looking at the play by play, over the last 5:03 of regulation, State was outrebounded 13-6. But that doesn’t have much to do with rebounding fundamentals. State missed 7 live ball free throws during that stretch, which accounts for the entire difference.
Maybe it’s too much to expect the killer instinct to be instilled in a young team… I don’t believe that St. Louis was better but, they never lost their focus or gave up on themselves even with what would seem an insurmountable lead.
State’s team was something like #330 in KenPom’s experience rating. St. Louis was a team full of seniors with postseason experience. That accounts for the difference.
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