NC State Basketball Scholarship Distribution & Discussion

16-17 Basketball Basketball Recruiting52

Obviously, the events of this past week serve to completely change the outlook for NC State Basketball, at least for the 2016-2017 season. Suddenly, NC State has enough talent among our top seven players to compete for an NCAA Tournament berth if we can avoid key injuries throughout the season. But, depth, experience and cohesion remain as major question marks for the next version of Wolfpack Basketball.

We’ve got a lot more discussion below the following table.

Current 2015-2016 NC State Basketball Program Configuration

Senior Class
(1) BeeJay Anya (5C)
(2) Lennard Freeman (4F / 5C) [Potential Redshirt this year]
(3) Terry Henderson (2G / Wing)

Junior Class
(4) Abdul Malik Abu (4F)

Sophomore Class
(5) Shaun Kirk (F)
(6) Torin Dorn (SG)
(7) Maverick Rowan (3F)

Freshman Class (2016 Commits)
(8) Dennis Smith, Jr
(9) Omer Yurtseven
(10) Darius Hicks
(11) Spencer Newman

2017 Commits
(12)
(13)
(1) Anya’s scholarship
(2) Henderson’s scholarship
(3) Projected Abu’s scholarship
(4) Projected Smith’s scholarship
(5) Projected Yurtseven’s scholarship
(6) Potential Freeman’s scholarship

State’s roster remains unbalanced with scholarship spacing and quality depth amongst upperclassmen — a state of operations that now has to be accepted as annual fact for Mark Gottfried since it happens every single year. The Wolfpack could easily lose 6 of the top 8 players after this season; Mark Gottfried appears to have scrambled together enough talent to compete for an NCAA Tournament berth in 2017.

When you look at the scholarship spacing of the program and you consider what we will probably lose after next season, I can’t imagine there is other option but to try to take Gibson Johnson a forward from Salt Lake Community College. It would be helpful for the 2017-2018 season to go ahead and take some other/more transfers and JUCOs to bolster experience and depth for the future and avoid the potential of having as many as NINE scholarships to deploy in the next recruiting class.

What is probably most frustrating about all of this roster turnover related to next season is that State’s biggest weaknesses for next year would have been perfectly mitigated by Cody and Caleb Martin. If the Martin twins would’ve stayed, this roster and the balance of the scholarship spacing of the program, would’ve been SO SOLID. The quality depth that the Martins’ EXPERIENCE, versatility, basketball IQ, shooting, rebounding and defensive capabilities would have been the perfect tonic for this roster.

Ultimately, the coaching staff’s inability to retain solid upperclassmen contributors continues to set State apart from the elite programs that find a way to have significantly more stability and maintain more experience and balance on their rosters. Just imagine how the last five years could have looked if State could’ve kept:

* DeShawn Painter for his senior season
* CJ Leslie for his senior season instead of leaving for the ‘NBA’, where he has NEVER played
* Lorenzo Brown for his senior season instead of leaving to be a 2nd round pick
* Tyler Lewis as backup support for a single point guard on our roster last year
* Trevor Lacey for his senior season instead of never playing in the NBA
* Kyle Washington for last year
* Cableb Martin
* Cody Martin

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16-17 Basketball Basketball Recruiting

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  • 05/19/2016 at 2:45 PM #103610
    StateFans
    Keymaster

    Obviously, the events of this past week serve to completely change the outlook for NC State Basketball, at least for the 2016-2017 season. Suddenly, N
    [See the full post at: NC State Basketball Scholarship Distribution & Discussion]

    05/19/2016 at 3:04 PM #103614
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    What? If, if, if…Who wrote this?

    05/19/2016 at 3:13 PM #103619
    Texpack
    Participant

    Where is my post?

    Pravda editors must be at work today.

    05/19/2016 at 3:29 PM #103621
    YogiNC
    Participant
    TheCOWDOG wrote:

    What? If, if, if…Who wrote this?

    Chicken little. Sorry, I just could NOT resist. We have gone from no roster to what could be a decent one for at least this next season and yet the sky is still falling.

    Smarter than the average bear

    05/19/2016 at 3:38 PM #103623
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    I would argue that we are trying to apply a traditional model to a VERY non-traditional coach.

    What you are seeing us try to do is morph into “Kentucky Lite” but with incoming transfers filling the gaps associated with…not being Kentucky.

    Is it the path I would personally choose? Probably not. But it’s interesting, and MG at least COULD make it work, in a way he clearly ain’t gonna with a traditional setup.

    The key is…we have to actually DO SOMETHING with this loaded gun, not just come close, or give people a scare. Horseshoes and hand grenades time is over, if we expect to sell players on it again, and keep the fanbase from revolting.

    But hey, 2016-17 will be a fun ride instead of a shitshow, at least.

    05/19/2016 at 3:43 PM #103624
    PackdatAss
    Participant

    Doom and gloom. We should be excited that we could potentially field a top 6 team in the ACC next year (dependent on Yurtsevens eligibility). We actually have a talented roster and a legitimate starting 5 that all rank as top 50 recruits coming out of high school. Not many teams have that. Give credit where credit is due and get off your pedalstool. Gottfried is a good coach and an exceptional recruiter and has assembled a great recruiting staff. Yes, we lack defensive identity. And yes, we lose transfers regularly but who doesn’t? There were almost 1,000 transfers this year. It’s an epidemic. I say good riddance to the Martin twins. They were inconsistent and were hardly ACC caliber starters. Unless you want to be Wake Forest or BC? Any takers?

    The fact is since Valvano, State has struggled to regain our identity as a premiere basketball program. And now with an absolutely loaded ACC, the challenge is even harder. I am patient enough to recognize that we have a good situation with Gottfried as he has proven multiple times that he has the ability to field a competitive ball club and make a run in the dance. I can live with a sweet 16 and elite 8 run every 4 years. If you expect more than that then you’re probably voting for Bernie Sanders. Understand this is a marathon and not a 100 meter dash. It takes time to return to prominence. Enjoy the ride. With the exception of last year, it has been invigorating to watch Gottfried’s teams in action across a season. You cannot deny that he always has them playing their best basketball in March.

    05/19/2016 at 4:01 PM #103618
    Texpack
    Participant

    Ultimately the coaching staff’s ability to consistently attract quality experienced players via transfer has factored heavily in the four tournament runs including two sweet sixteens under MG. Imagine what the last five years would have been like without Alex Johnson, Trevor Lacey, Dez Lee, and Ralston Turner.

    If you add this statement to the article it would be a more accurate representation of what has occurred during Gott’s tenure, but some people have to take their shots, even at the end of a week that MAY have set us up for a really solid 2016-2017 season.

    05/19/2016 at 4:02 PM #103626
    tjfoose1
    Participant

    And dang it, we need more jobs for wheelwrights and horse whip manufacturers!

    And what about those frog wings?

    05/19/2016 at 4:04 PM #103627
    Rick
    Keymaster
    Texpack wrote:

    Where is my post?

    Pravda editors must be at work today.

    Not “Pravda” editors. WordPress sticks posts into pending for what appears to be random reasons.

    05/19/2016 at 4:09 PM #103629
    PackdatAss
    Participant

    I hope we land Gibson Johnson. He would give us a stretch 4 that would be a solid backup for Abu and could free up the paint for Yurtseven given his 3 point range. He would also give us an experienced player to go alongside Freeman in 2017. My only concern is if we land Johnson then Darius Hicks will transfer after his freshmen year. Gottfried will never play 5 post players consistently across 2 spots. Never. odds are we will sign two top 100 posts for the 2017 class. On top of that we will probably land two guards. Understand we are targeting a solid portion of the 2017 class that is ranked in the top 100. Land 3 or 4 guys and 2017 is a young but capable team. Gottfried made the right move in his Pierre and Schroyer hires. I believe those dividends will pay off in 2017.

    Having 2 guys go in the lottery next year will help too :). Abu could even be a first rounder.

    05/19/2016 at 4:11 PM #103631
    freshmanin83
    Participant

    So instead of putting up with this bottom dwelling, dumpster fire, where everything sucks program, we should be clamoring for Gott and Yow to be fired now because that would be the smart and proactive thing to do?

    Just in case this post is misunderstood the above question is made from a summary of some things posted in another thread by various people.

    05/19/2016 at 4:19 PM #103632
    Joe Cool
    Participant

    “I would argue that we are trying to apply a traditional model to a VERY non-traditional coach.”

    Agree and would add that college basketball is no longer the traditional model it was just five or ten years ago and will not be going forward. We look to the 80’s as our glory years and they were but college basketball will not be what it was in the 80’s unfortunately – As you say, we have a loaded gun, if Y7 clears, we need to do something with it……

    05/19/2016 at 4:21 PM #103633
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I see the attack anything that’s not rainbows and unicorns group is out in full force. BTW what did he say in that article that was so offensive?

    Gott turned around a potential disaster into a surprisingly talented group of kids. Let’s hope our record matches our talent level.
    But there are legitimate concerns about the following year. I guess we will get to see what the great scrambler is able to pull out that next year.

    05/19/2016 at 4:42 PM #103634
    tractor57
    Participant

    I do not discount Rick’s concerns. Valid concerns but as mentioned the college game has changed greatly in the last decade. Can Gott scramble enough to deal with that change? That we will see.

    05/19/2016 at 4:48 PM #103636
    Texpack
    Participant
    Rick wrote:

    I see the attack anything that’s not rainbows and unicorns group is out in full force. BTW what did he say in that article that was so offensive?

    Gott turned around a potential disaster into a surprisingly talented group of kids. Let’s hope our record matches our talent level.
    But there are legitimate concerns about the following year. I guess we will get to see what the great scrambler is able to pull out that next year.

    Had the statement placing the blame for transfers out solely on the coaching staff, without any comments regarding the transfers in, been left out of the article I would have been fine with it. The constant drum beat that assigns 100% of the blame for transfers out but never credit for transfers in gets really old. It’s the same drummers that pound about lack of player development with guys like Abu and Anya, while staying silent on Lo Brown, Cat, Richard Howell, and TJ Warren.

    Sometimes people mesh, sometimes they don’t. It’s something you really want to figure out in the recruiting process, but if you’ve ever hired people on a regular basis, you know that figuring out “fit” is an inexact science.

    You are absolutely correct that Gott still has a lot of work to do in order to field more than a UNC-W level team in 2017-18. It would be nice to convert the commitments we have just gotten into a couple more JUCO guys to help correct for the Martins.

    05/19/2016 at 4:58 PM #103637
    StateFans
    Keymaster

    So weird how bringing a factual, analytical, forward thinking conversation to the forefront is considered ‘Chicken Little’. What actual points in the comments are not applicable?

    I think BJD makes a FANTASTIC point about trying to bring a ‘typical’ approach to an atypical coach and operating model. I don’t disagree with that. I also don’t disagree with the comments that Gottfried deserves credit for his ability to attract talent. Of course, he would NOT have to always be attracting talent if he could figure out a way to RETAIN the talent that he originally attracted.

    With that said — we now have 5 years of on the floor performance (plus his 14 years prior to State) to know exactly what the Gottfried model produces. I think it is just good enough. But, I also see no reason to think that we will ever remotely be really good for anything that looks like a consistent amount of time. And, the point of some of these comments is to point out WHY we aren’t consistently ‘really good’. It’s not mean or ‘negative’. It just is what it is. But, like I say, I think it is generally ‘good enough’.

    05/19/2016 at 5:02 PM #103638
    StateFans
    Keymaster

    We’ve made the point many times that Gottfried has generally won the ‘transfer in’ game. (Not sure that is true if you include those that left early and were not successful enough to merit leaving early – CJ Leslie, Trevor Lacey, Lorenzo Brown, maybe Cat Barber.)

    Nonetheless, I think you might be missing the importance of cohesion and chemistry and stability in this equation. Generally speaking, I’d rather have the same talent in one player stay for 4 years than to have the same talent spread across 2 or 3 players over a 4 year period. That’s just me.

    05/19/2016 at 5:44 PM #103641
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    Put up or shut up time for Gott. No excuses this year.

    05/19/2016 at 5:55 PM #103642
    JeremyH
    Participant

    We had some decent talent this past year, but depth and lack of three point shooting really hurt us. We need to keep adding depth, so we can just overwhelm teams the way that it was done to us.

    05/19/2016 at 6:06 PM #103644
    Rick
    Keymaster
    Texpack wrote:

    Had the statement placing the blame for transfers out solely on the coaching staff, without any comments regarding the transfers in, been left out of the article I would have been fine with it. The constant drum beat that assigns 100% of the blame for transfers out but never credit for transfers in gets really old

    I read this on another thread and feel it’s appropriate here.
    Tip for the day: When it’s always someone else, then maybe, just maybe, it’s actually you.

    05/19/2016 at 6:16 PM #103646
    StateRed44
    Participant

    If you are worried now about the year after next, get a grip. We are still recruiting for next year. Almost anything could happen between now and then. I don’t mind the “Kentucky-lite” approach at all. There is probably greater potential risk and greater potential reward. Without any banners hung since V years, I like the risk on play. Good news is that he can be removed when there is too much downside, so enjoy the ride and live a little.

    05/19/2016 at 6:36 PM #103653
    Rick
    Keymaster
    StateRed44 wrote:

    If you are worried now about the year after next, get a grip.

    You and Gott seem to have a similar philosophy. Hard to build a program that way.

    05/19/2016 at 6:54 PM #103654
    freshmanin83
    Participant

    I see the chicken little over anything that’s not clear skies group is out in full force. : )

    05/19/2016 at 7:25 PM #103665
    MISTA WOLF
    Participant

    Should we enjoy the moment and not worry about the future? Should we worry about the longetivity and the setup 3 years down the road? I understand both arguments because I’ve fit in to one of those categories over the last several years. Hell, I could die tomorrow so I’ll be happy with whats going on now 🙂

    05/19/2016 at 8:42 PM #103686
    hpack
    Participant

    The new NCABB model is for players to leave after 1 really good season. This is encouraged by the NBA drafting philosophy where players are drafted after as soon as GM’s (feel they) can accurately evaluate their potential. TJ, CAT, and Lacy all left after their really good season.

    Cal showed everyone how to maximize the number of players having really good seasons…simply pull in 4-5 OAD’ers every year and turn the roster over. OAD’ers who have a “disappointing” rookie year, merely a pretty good season, fill out the balance of their roster as sophs. Duke, Kan, Cheat, Conn, all employ some version of this strategy.

    For the rest of D1, we need to recruit and develop players. Hopefully after 1-2 seasons of growth each recruit will have a pretty good season followed by a really good season (or at least 2 pretty good seasons ala Howell, Turner, Lo Brown).

    Gott’s problem is players transferring just after 1-2 “OK” seasons (Lewis, Martin x 2, Washington, Purvis) or going pro after a just a pretty good season (CJL). We are losing out on the investment on our 2nd level recruits and never really cashing in on their productive years. Of course Gott’s strategy has been to backfill with xfers from other schools to fill this gap. While Gott has done alright replacing the talent, I do think we have lost out on some continuity as the team is reconstitued every fall.

    Only way to break the cycle is to recruit more OAD’ers or find some kids that want to play at NC state.

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