Men’s Basketball Player Turnover Under Mark Gottfried

Mark Gottfried NCS Basketball503

As best as I can tell, this is the turnover under Gott. Just going to leave this here for reference.

11-12

Painter – transfer (family issues)
Harris – transfer
Raymond – transfer

12-13

Leslie – left early, never played in NBA
Brown – left early, NBA
Purvis – transfer
de Thaey – left to go wherever

13-14
Warren – left early, NBA
Lewis – transfer

14-15

Lacey – left early, never played in NBA
Washington – transfer
Wallace – walk on transfer

15-16

Barber – left early, NBA ?
Martin – transfer
Martin – transfer

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I'm an unapologetic NC State fan but also consider myself a rational one. Hit me up on twitter if you want to talk @NCStateFootball

Mark Gottfried NCS Basketball

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  • 03/28/2016 at 7:54 AM #102016
    ryebread
    Participant

    Think: Yep, and I stand by it. Ironically the “recruiting class” and reliance on transfers is part of why it makes sense to make the move now. Four incoming freshman might put us in a situation like the Hodge class where we’re held captive by the fear of recruits leaving.

    DSJ is the only incoming freshman and he’s already enrolled. He’s not going to sit another year. The other new players to the roster have also sat and waited. They’re not going to waste more time. Abu’s decision seemingly has nothing to do with Gott, and everything to do with what the NBA tells him. Mav’s a very old freshman.

    Also, we’ve got one assistant position open and maybe a second. That means guaranteed change regardless. May as well have the new coach hiring the assistants.

    If you know what needs to be done, then it doesn’t do any good to wait to do it. It’s been clear since year two where this would ultimately go. It is only a matter of time before the fans and power brokers figure it out and how long it takes to play out.

    I’m fine with being labeled the lunatic fringe. It’s time to get far more proactive and strategic.

    03/28/2016 at 8:52 AM #102017
    Rick
    Keymaster

    It won’t happen for a myriad of reasons (most related to Yow) but if it was my choice I would go ahead and cut bait. I am sure we will squeak into the tourney again next year. Maybe even repeat the pinnacle of success (sweet 16). But then the bottom for out. We will have four players returning in 2017.

    03/28/2016 at 9:19 AM #102018
    redisgood
    Participant

    Gott’s new contract calls for an automatic year added each year he makes the NCAA tournament, squeaking in or otherwise. With 68 teams making the tournament, I’m not sure that was the wisest clause to include.

    03/28/2016 at 9:41 AM #102020
    spintk
    Participant

    my humble opinion is that for the program to improve, you’re going to have to fire mark. to that end, hope that abu makes a foolish decision and decides to hire an agent. that would leave you with essentially one post player in anya given freeman’s health issues. mark may have proven himself head and shoulders above lowe, but that’s not saying much and it definitely isn’t enough to stay coaching in this league. another failed experiment for state.

    03/28/2016 at 9:45 AM #102021
    spintk
    Participant

    jesus…i just read the breakdown. i count 10 defections in 5 years [exclusive of decisions based on nba and family matters]. blame the kids wanting to be stars all you want . . .

    03/28/2016 at 10:00 AM #102022
    Gene
    Participant

    Don’t get the Gott and Yow package deal talk?

    Basketball is down. Football is still mediocre.

    Yet several none revenue sports have competed for national titles, after winning the ACC title, such as wrestling and the swim / dive team.

    There’s a rebirth of athletics in other places at NCSU outside of basketball and football, which Yow should get credit for.

    She’s the best AD we’ve had in 30 years (low bar, I know, but she does not allow failing coaches to stay on forever).

    03/28/2016 at 10:02 AM #102023
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    spintk wrote:

    jesus…i just read the breakdown. i count 10 defections in 5 years [exclusive of decisions based on nba and family matters]. blame the kids wanting to be stars all you want . . .

    There was some rumblings this weekend that the transfer train hasnt stopped yet. This is from some of my WPC friends. I almost want it to happen for the loller factor.

    03/28/2016 at 10:20 AM #102025
    Khan
    Participant

    There are really just two scenarios here, and neither offer a good reason to suggest that Gottfried is going to ever build a top 25 program. Either:

    1) Kids transfer and/or leave for the NBA more at NC State than any of the perennially successful programs. If this scenario is the case, then Gott has a problem retaining personnel, which has undermined his ability to build a top 25 program.

    OR:

    2) Kids transfer and/or leave for the NBA at NC State in line with most of the perennially successful programs. If this scenario is the case, then Gott has a problem figuring how to navigate this issue, which has also undermined his ability to build a top 25 program.

    Either way, there is a barrier to becoming a consistently strong program. I continue to see no evidence that this will be a solvable problem for Gottfried. Assuming we care about the performance of the basketball program, this leaves 3 simple buckets in which we can land:

    1) Satisfaction with mediocrity

    2) Fire Gottfried and hire a coach that is more likely to build the program

    3) Give him more time and hope he can figure it out

    I’m fine with option 2. The pattern is clear by now and unlikely to change. And before the routine “But who are we going to get?” “We can’t compete with the blues.” “Who would want to come here. This isn’t a top destination job?” arguments, I’ll go ahead and preemptively call Balderdash.

    03/28/2016 at 10:22 AM #102026
    StateRed44
    Participant

    Media would cry foul over us firing Gott. I don’t care what media thinks but perception is a tricky thing. Combine that with DY’s last search and I’d rather be stuck in a 1 year or 2 year problem than with a potential 5 year problem on our hands.

    03/28/2016 at 10:29 AM #102027
    Khan
    Participant

    Media would cry foul over us firing Gott. I don’t care what media thinks but perception is a tricky thing. Combine that with DY’s last search and I’d rather be stuck in a 1 year or 2 year problem than with a potential 5 year problem on our hands.

    I’ve heard this argument too. My response is, Who cares? They beat us up every chance they get anyway and rip on the fan base at the drop of a hat. And we just shrink around worrying about what they say about this or that. The story would go away when we win. Let’s start winning for a change and the rest of it will fall in line.

    03/28/2016 at 11:21 AM #102028
    eas
    Participant

    All it takes to shut the media up is for the next coach to have more success than the last. It’s not like we are dropping coaches quickly. Gott has been here since 4/2011 so again that’s not a short period. Normal for most other programs to make a decision. We always wait too long and pay too little.

    I agree our BB and FB programs are not keeping up with our other non revenue sports. Something has to change big time. I agree that DD does get another year Mulligan based on his time here. I don’t feel that way about Gott. I may like the guy but we have to be more consistent. Not to mention a MUCH better/sound team on Defense and Offense. Not sure how that happens with our current make up and style of play. If just one other player transfers this spring the dumpster fire will certainly will burn out of control.

    03/28/2016 at 11:28 AM #102029
    choppack1
    Participant

    Khan – the media’s reaction and perception isn’t important but the coaching community’s perception is very important.

    We already have an AD who has a reputation as a ball buster… Now, you fire a coach who has been to the 4 consecutive times and misses the tournament once, well, let’s just say that this perceived lack of patience basically guarantees us a much more shallow pool of quality candidates.

    IMHO, this job is much more attractive of there is more than one bad season before firing the head coach. Ideally, Gott would take another job right now.

    03/28/2016 at 11:32 AM #102030
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    Wish he’d take the Stanford job…cause he ain’t getting UCLA.

    03/28/2016 at 11:38 AM #102031
    Khan
    Participant

    Chop, good point. The entire issue makes for a good debate, but the reality is, he’s not going to be fired this year or next year, most likely. I wouldn’t bet on him quitting either. But IMO, it’s also pretty safe to say that we know what we’ve got.

    03/28/2016 at 11:48 AM #102032
    choppack1
    Participant

    Bjd ; gott to unlv?? Great fit!

    03/28/2016 at 1:04 PM #102033
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    Stanford hired Haase from UAB.

    03/28/2016 at 1:24 PM #102034
    Rick
    Keymaster
    Khan wrote:

    Chop, good point. The entire issue makes for a good debate, but the reality is, he’s not going to be fired this year or next year, most likely. I wouldn’t bet on him quitting either. But IMO, it’s also pretty safe to say that we know what we’ve got.

    We are paying him very well. He isn’t going to make this coin anywhere else. No chance he takes another job. He will have to be vetoed or living and screaming.

    03/28/2016 at 1:37 PM #102035
    Gene
    Participant

    I’m fine with option 2. The pattern is clear by now and unlikely to change. And before the routine “But who are we going to get?” “We can’t compete with the blues.” “Who would want to come here. This isn’t a top destination job?” arguments, I’ll go ahead and preemptively call Balderdash.

    We’ve only missed the NCAA tournament 17 of the last 26 years, i.e. since 1990 and missed any post season play at all, NIT or otherwise, 13 of those 26 seasons.

    We’re a powerhouse. We’re just about to turn the corner and win an ACC title and National Title in a year or two, if only we had the right coach.

    Hope springs eternal in every fan bases mind, prior to the start of a new season. But let’s have a reality check. We haven’t been a contender in over a generation, in the ACC.

    Also, there’s a bunch of loser stink around the program and athletics department, from luminaries like Lee Fowler and Todd Turner, which we need to shake off, before we will be taken seriously.

    So far Gottfried’s done a good job in shaking it off. Two Sweet 16’s in four years is well above average. Only 8 teams annually do better than making it to the Sweet 16.

    To fire him, will just put the stink back on us, because no objective outside observer, will look at our results over the past quarter century and conclude our floor is a minimum of a Sweet 16 and Top Four finish in the ACC, with winning an ACC title every 3-4 years.

    Our floor is much, much lower, and so far Gottfried has gotten us well above our floor, except for this year.

    The question is, can he push as past what has seemed to be our ceiling over this period of time.

    Time will tell.

    Edit: TL; DR: Our floor is bottom of the ACC, we’ve proven this over the years. Doing better than our floor is necessary to get the loser stink off us. Gott has done that in the first four years. He gets a do over for this year, because of this. The question is, what is our ceiling under Gottfried? Time will tell.

    03/28/2016 at 1:42 PM #102036
    Rick
    Keymaster
    Gene wrote:

    The question is, what is our ceiling under Gottfried

    I disagree on or for but we definitely see the ceiling. Got doesn’t play defense enough to win a title.

    03/28/2016 at 1:46 PM #102037
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster
    Gene wrote:

    The question is, what is our ceiling under Gottfried? Time will tell.

    Here’s another question….Why should we expect Gott’s ceiling to be higher than anything he’s shown in his nearly 20 years as a head coach? That question gets even tougher if we factor in the high-rate of roster turnover in his years at State.

    03/28/2016 at 2:05 PM #102039
    Gene
    Participant

    Well, if I understand what I’ve read on NCSU basketball blogs correctly, over the last 12-13 years or so, because we are NC State we naturally give any coach a bonus on the talent they can recruit, therefore their ceiling will be automatically be higher, which is why our expectations as fans will be higher.

    Therefore Gottfried’s ceiling is higher than at Alabama.

    Being serious for a moment, I think we’ve seen Gott’s ceiling and that ceiling, Sweet 16, with puncher’s chance of making the Round of 8, is higher than most other coach’s ceilings.

    He’s not a Hall of Fame head coach, which is actually what we need to be a dominant program, but those are few and far between for most programs.

    03/28/2016 at 2:15 PM #102040
    Khan
    Participant

    We’re a powerhouse. We’re just about to turn the corner and win an ACC title and National Title in a year or two, if only we had the right coach.

    Hope springs eternal in every fan bases mind, prior to the start of a new season. But let’s have a reality check. We haven’t been a contender in over a generation, in the ACC.

    The bolded is the cornerstone of the entire discussion. Conversation about a quality AD, the right chancellor, a good coach, good recruiting, state of the art facilities, etc., etc., etc. are all offshoots emanating from this central point. And they always tie back into that point.

    So many of us have been lulled into complacency, “this is just how it is now”, by this subliminal white noise that has gone on for years that says our day has passed. There’s too much competition out there. We’re in between two perennial powerhouses. We’re not a destination. Our tradition has been lost to the sands of time. We’ve just had some bad luck. The media has it out for us, etc.

    None of those present a logical defense of this:

    We haven’t been a contender in over a generation, in the ACC.

    That statement is true because of the inability of leadership to understand how to move the program forward or who have been ineffective at executing that initiative. If any or all of the above excuses were true, then nobody that is not currently contending would ever contend for anything.

    If we’re going to change the direction of the program, then we need to expect to be great again. It has been done here before, and it can be done here again. Period.

    Let’s give Gottfried two more years. Like Rick said, he won’t leave on his own. My prediction is that we’ll make it into the NCAA tournament next year and fall short of it the following year. And we will continue to maintain our streak of no championships. I HOPE I’m wrong, but the definition of insanity says that I won’t be.

    03/28/2016 at 2:39 PM #102041
    packbackr04
    Participant

    When measuring Gotts success I dont care much about pointing to S16’s as a good barometer. I care about DY’s stated goals when she hired Mark. She specifically said we wanted to be a perennial top 25 program, year in and year out. Period. Which, best i can tell, Gott has fallen well short of. We spent the preseason and then a week or two in the top 25 for Lo Brown & Calvins sophomore year, immediately lost a few head scratchers early and never recovered (still havent). IMO, if you are a perennial top25, you are inevitably going to make some S16’s because you are a good team, not cause you get hot and make a few decent runs.

    DY has more than enough reason to fire Gott if she chose to do so, and she needs do nothing more than re-read her press conference from the day she hired Gott as the reasons for his dismissal. She obviously wont be doing that for reasons that have been discussed on here ad nauseum, but to imply she doesnt have “cause” to let Gott go is incorrect.

    03/28/2016 at 2:42 PM #102042
    Gene
    Participant

    Khan, I’m not advocating for not wanting to win or not caring.

    I am pointing out that some fans think it’s 1983 or something and we just won our second National Title in under 10 years and our 3rd ACC title in 10 years.

    We aren’t that program anymore.

    We are an also ran.

    I think Gottfried’s done a lot to rub the loser stink off the program, in the first four years by (a) making it to the NCAA tournament four years in a row, which is not nothing for our program recently, (b) made the Sweet 16 in two of those years and (c) produced an ACC POY and NBA First round pick, in TJ Warren.

    I don’t think Gottfried’s gonna build a contender, because of the roster turnover.

    But I’ll “settle” for the results he’s had in the first four years, if that becomes the new normal here.

    That will go a long way to taking the stink off the program and making us an attractive destination.

    In the long-term, Gottfried can be shown the door out with a nice ransom paid severance package, and a new coach, who we feel can win titles, hired.

    03/28/2016 at 3:01 PM #102045
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    Gene wrote:

    I think Gottfried’s done a lot to rub the loser stink off the program, in the first four years by (a) making it to the NCAA tournament four years in a row, which is not nothing for our program recently, (b) made the Sweet 16 in two of those years and (c) produced an ACC POY and NBA First round pick, in TJ Warren.

    I don’t think Gottfried’s gonna build a contender, because of the roster turnover.

    But I’ll “settle” for the results he’s had in the first four years, if that becomes the new normal here.

    The problems with that is I dont think he can ever get back to that. I sure as hell dont see a 4rth place finish the next two years and its looking more like middle of the pack (at best) next year. A lot and I mean a lot of things have to break our way to have a slightly above average year.

    -DSJ has to be healthy and hit the ground running with no learning curve. (Frankly I dont see it, too tough to do)
    – Torin has to be able to step in and produce in an ACC environment. (Sure I can see him being a touch above a role player)
    -Freeman needs to get healthy (Not sure this will ever be the case)
    – Abu has to come back (without ABU we are a dead man walking before the season starts
    – TH has to bounce back from not playing in eternity and hopefully his ankle is healed (they seem to be funny once you get them operated on)

    Those are just the most obvious. Could all of those things go right for State, sure, but when has that type of stuff ever worked out for us?

    Then there is the gorilla in the room 17-18 season which looks like a dumpster fire in the horizon.

    Again I am certainly more jaded then your average fan but the above is pretty much what I see in regards to next year but if Abu decides to go then there are no words.

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