Audio: What Defines Success for NC State?

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What metric should define success for NC State basketball (and sports in general)? NCAA Tourney runs or ACC Championships?

The guys at The Red and White Podcast take a look deep inside the numbers. Is Mark Gottfried the equivalent to TOB? Give it a listen, it might not be as far fetched as it sounds.

TOB vs Mark Gottried, Closer than you expect

TOB vs Mark Gottried, Closer than you expect

About JackWolf

I'm an unapologetic NC State fan but also consider myself a rational one. Hit me up on twitter if you want to talk @NCStateFootball

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Home › Forums › Audio: What Defines Success for NC State?

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  • 02/09/2016 at 10:32 AM #99138
    JackWolf
    Keymaster

    What metric should define success for NC State basketball (and sports in general)? NCAA Tourney runs or ACC Championships? The guys at The Red and Whi
    [See the full post at: Audio: What Defines Success for NC State?]

    02/09/2016 at 1:39 PM #99140
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    The basic question goes back to the heart of the Great Herb Debate. Some people are happy with not being a laughing stock. Some people want alot more.

    The legitimate question should be…how does Debbie define success/failure.

    02/09/2016 at 3:02 PM #99143
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    VaWolf82 wrote:

    The basic question goes back to the heart of the Great Herb Debate. Some people are happy with not being a laughing stock. Some people want alot more.

    The legitimate question should be…how does Debbie define success/failure.

    She has said it numerous times and I have heard her say it in person. She wants a top 25 program and all that comes with it. In theory she is right. If you are a top 25 bball program you are probably contending for your conference title and getting a high NCAA seed. If you are atop fball program then are more than likely going to good/great bowls. So after 5 years in bball we are a loooonnnnngggg ways off to that goal

    02/09/2016 at 4:28 PM #99146
    FergusWolf
    Participant

    If we were consistently (> 80% of weeks in the polls) in the top 25 in basketball (men’s and women’s), football, and baseball, as well as > 50% of the other sports, I would define that as success.

    02/09/2016 at 8:31 PM #99158
    13OT
    Participant

    A Top 25 program? Hell, if the ACC keeps expanding, we won’t even be a Top 25 team in our own conference the way we’re going.

    02/10/2016 at 9:47 AM #99162
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster
    wolfpack92owen wrote:

    She has said it numerous times and I have heard her say it in person. She wants a top 25 program and all that comes with it.

    Good point, but that brings up several more questions.
    – How long will she allow a coach to build their program and reach this goal?
    – How often are they expected to be in the Top-25?
    – If a coach reaches this goal and then falls back, how quickly will she act?

    Side Note: As several other people have stated…I shudder at the thoughts of DY running another basketball coaching search.

    02/10/2016 at 10:40 AM #99163
    tractor57
    Participant

    The last BB coach search was not ideal (maybe not even good) but a damn sight better than the previous one. Would DY do better with a new search today? Maybe. I also have concerns on that issue.

    For better or worse it seems to me that overall athletics is in a better place. Not good enough for sure but at least no more Uncle Jed crap.

    Can DY lead the effort to the next step up? Not sure she can so it is useful to consider options – exactly as I hope she will review all the programs that report to her. To date I’m not ready to change ADs but it should be an annual review just as coaches should.

    02/10/2016 at 11:55 AM #99165
    Rick
    Keymaster

    She and DD are contracted until 2019 and got until 2020.
    From my understanding her spending on non revenue sports limits our ability to pay any buyouts so I think it is safe to say we will have these three here for at least two more years. At this point all we can do is hope the two coaches figure out how to win a title. IMO Gott has shown what he is going to do. For some its great for some they want a chance to win a title.

    I feel Yow has been way too free with unearned extensions and spent too much on nonrevenue sports.

    02/10/2016 at 12:47 PM #99168
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Hmmm. You got a breakdown on that non-rev stuff?

    As apposed to say…oh, I don’t know…an indoor practice facility, and a new Luxor “jock” dorm, upgrades to Murphy?

    02/10/2016 at 1:27 PM #99169
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    Rick wrote:

    She and DD are contracted until 2019 and got until 2020.
    From my understanding her spending on non revenue sports limits our ability to pay any buyouts so I think it is safe to say we will have these three here for at least two more years. At this point all we can do is hope the two coaches figure out how to win a title. IMO Gott has shown what he is going to do. For some its great for some they want a chance to win a title.

    I feel Yow has been way too free with unearned extensions and spent too much on nonrevenue sports.

    I hear what you are saying but these contracts get bought out every year. I also hear what you are saying about not having the funds to even buy them out if we wanted but these things tend to have a way to work themselves out IMO. I think if the bottom falls out, and I think it very well may in 2016-17 in both sports, then whoever that makes the call will not have much of a choice. Has a school ever had to replace the AD, and both revenue coaches in the same year?

    02/10/2016 at 2:33 PM #99172
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster
    TheCOWDOG wrote:

    Hmmm. You got a breakdown on that non-rev stuff?

    As apposed to say…oh, I don’t know…an indoor practice facility, and a new Luxor “jock” dorm, upgrades to Murphy?

    It’s very hard to peel back the layers on athletic spending. Dave Glenn interviewed DY shortly after she was hired and she said she didn’t have a handle on the finances because a lot of money moves through the Wolfpack Club before it gets to the athletic dept.

    However, there is some info available because schools have to file reports with the Federal Govt. This info is reported on a website called “Equity in Athletics”. Any time you see dollar amounts mentioned in an article, odds are that they used this website to get the info.

    Having gone through the numbers several years ago, there are gaps big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through and not all schools report the information in the same way…but it’s pretty much all you or I can get to.

    For the year ending June 2015, State reported Total Revenue minus Total Expenses as +$7M.

    http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d31393931393326796561723d323031342673656172636843726974657269613d3332336437323631366336353639363736383236373236343734336433323266333133303266333233303331333632303332336133333331336133343336323035303464267264743d322f31302f3230313620323a33313a343620504d

    02/10/2016 at 2:35 PM #99173
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    We HAD to spend on non-revenue, if we wanted to get away from being complete and abject failures.

    Looks to me like we are getting return on investment, which is what I ask for.

    As to men’s BB search…just no way. She is just too close to retirement, even if you discount the “pity party” letter from last time. Which I do NOT.

    02/10/2016 at 2:44 PM #99174
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    If you look at the last two football and basketball searches, it’s very strange to me that both football searches went much, much better than either basketball search.

    I don’t understand it, but it would be easy to speculate (as I do) that State’s football program is better thought of than the basketball program. There are other theories, but I’m going to stick with the simplest one baring additional info leaking out.

    02/10/2016 at 5:09 PM #99175
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    What I was trying to cajole was evidence of expenditure on non-rev sports that would, in any shape or form, confine FB or BB from making any changes deemed necessary.

    Which, of course, is a ludicrous notion.

    02/10/2016 at 5:35 PM #99176
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    We also kind of fished in different waters for the hoops search. Though I was certainly pleased with the Doeren hire, then and now.

    02/10/2016 at 6:08 PM #99177
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    ^ Me, too.

    02/10/2016 at 6:35 PM #99180
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    I just don’t get where the “nevar let debbie run coaching search again1!” stuff is coming from.

    The previous search came after five years of absolutely horrid basketball, which was preceded by five years of pretty good basketball, which was preceded by more than a decade of horrid basketball.

    Why would any established coach leave a program for NC State when our results have been so bad for so long, and our expectations are so high?

    Then when there are maybe one or two sure-fire, can’t miss candidates, all it takes is flipping a coin and offering the wrong one the job first to get you shut out, which is what appears to have happened from everything I’ve heard from the last search.

    I totally get working for a base hit instead of swinging for the fences when you’ve got two strikes. Admittedly the email was questionable, but god only knows what kind of crap she was getting behind the scenes to prompt it.

    I’d be fine with Yow running another search, and I feel pretty confident that Arch is the first name on the short list in the top desk drawer. The timing might not ever be right for that to work, but there will be someone else eventually.

    02/10/2016 at 8:57 PM #99189
    john of sparta
    Participant

    agree with all that above:
    1. DY is holding on for however long until her retirement.
    2. football is money. DD done good enough. net.
    3. gott is what we got. deal with it.

    02/10/2016 at 10:00 PM #99190
    ryebread
    Participant

    I think the podcast guys have a decent finger on the pulse of the fanbase. Gott’s results have been mediocre. Basketball should be held to a higher standard than football at NC State. There are trends that transcend the players on the roster and those trends stop this staff from taking the next step (top 25).

    I’d guess my biggest issue with that podcast was saying that HWSNBN had that “success” his “first four years.” They’ve seemingly forgotten the 5 horrible years prior to that. The fact that Gott did it his actual first four years is why I think people are satisfied and willing to give a free pass for this year.

    The last two basketball coaches were poorly run but in different ways. Fowler’s was too public and he was too incompetent. Sid kind of bailed him out, but NC State also bailed Sid out. Prior to that search many of us said that Fowler had to go before HWSNBN. Turns out we were right.

    I think Yow thought she had Smart locked up, he backed out at the last second, but she’d already burnt the bridges with the other candidates (all the candidates “pulling out of consideration” publicly right before the email went out). It was all in the email — almost panic and starting back at ground zero. The Gott thing fell in her lap late and he seemingly wasn’t in play or that email wouldn’t have been sent.

    It’s the right time to move on Gott, but NC State won’t do it though. If they had the stones to do so, then the “patience” Christmas card would have been great foreshadowing. Instead, I’m guessing nothing will happen and it was as bad as it looks on the surface.

    02/11/2016 at 7:02 AM #99192
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    ryebread wrote:

    It’s the right time to move on Gott, but NC State won’t do it though. If they had the stones to do so, then the “patience” Christmas card would have been great foreshadowing. Instead, I’m guessing nothing will happen and it was as bad as it looks on the surface.

    I dont care if you support all things NCSU and Yow, the Christmas card this year is nothing short of mind boggling. Its another bizarre move in a long line of them. WTF does having patience do with anything XMAS and to have the audacity to tell the alums that give money to stop being restless. Just another blunder.

    02/11/2016 at 11:56 AM #99198
    ncsu1987
    Participant

    Just curious, has there been speculation about DY retiring when her contract expires, or has she said something allusive?

    02/11/2016 at 12:28 PM #99199
    wolfpack92owen
    Participant
    ncsu1987 wrote:

    Just curious, has there been speculation about DY retiring when her contract expires, or has she said something allusive?

    On Yow’s list of long-range plans is retirement. By 2019, she would have 25 years in the ACC as an AD and her career would span more than 40 years as college coach or administrator.

    “I don’t have any intentions of going past (2019),” Yow said. “I just need to the do the best I can for N.C. State and hopefully set it up for the next person.”

    http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/article18772455.html

    Mercifully I think she is done in 2019 at the very latest.

    02/11/2016 at 8:19 PM #99203
    choppack1
    Participant

    Wow. Like the TOB of AD’s…” Its NC state or bust for me, after 2 years collecting a paycheck as AHC at UVA.”

    Regarding Deb Yow’s coaching search, the end result was fine. The problem was you have to completely ignore pretty much a nervous breakdown in a pc. She’s an interesting cat…solid job on non-revenue sports. TBD in what matters most.

    IMHO – she goes almost strictly by personality, not necessarily by the “past performance is indicative of future results” mantra. The good news is that her gut seems to be pretty solid.

    02/11/2016 at 10:31 PM #99205
    ryebread
    Participant

    I have problems with Yow in the non-revenue sports. We’re seeing those Sears Cup improvements in large part due to the non-revenue sports. Really to do that though, that’s where the most strides can be made, and is probably how I’d go about it if in her shoes.

    Football has been mixed but she took a bet that given our place in the pecking order was fine. I understand wanting to let that one run some. I didn’t understand the quick renewal/extensions for the coordinators, but maybe DD pushed her on that one.

    It’s men’s basketball and the Reynolds project that I don’t understand. The former we’ve discussed ad naseum. The latter is because we’re spending on a project that will result in a facility that would never allow men’s basketball to return to campus if needed while hearing there’s no space on Centennial either. We’re building a trophy case for 30+ year old trophies with no sign on the horizon of any meaningful new ones. It’s a head scratcher.

    02/12/2016 at 9:34 AM #99223
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    When you sell more lifetime rights than Reynolds could ever hold, you’ve eliminated any chance that men’s basketball would ever return there.

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