ACC Bubble Update

In case you’re wondering, my Minion pic has nothing to do with anyone here at SFN. The fact that a 15 min drive home after lunch took almost an hour should explain it. Oh and I forgot to mention…there was less than ½ inch of snow on the ground at that time. So for everyone stuck in the snow, keep safe and keep warm. And remember, the idiots have us out-numbered.

 

THE BUBBLE IS WEAK THIS YEAR

In any event, this week’s update is going to focus heavily on the NCAAT bubble. In last week’s entry, I called the Bubble “weak” without giving any explanation or reasoning, so let’s start with that. Remember that what we usually call “RPI” is actually just a ranking. The actual Rating Percentage Index (RPI) is calculated based on your team’s adjusted winning percentage (home losses and road wins count more), your opponent’s winning percentage (with the games against you removed from their record), and your opponents’ opponents’ winning percentage. So here is a graph that correlates Monday morning’s RPI calculations from CBS with the resulting ranking.

 

There are a number of conclusions that can be drawn from this graph, but let’s focus on the bubble end of the graph. Starting with #34, there is very little difference from one team to the next. Thus when you lose, you will drop and when you win, you’ll rise pretty quickly. This is what I meant by weak.

It also means that there won’t be much difference between the last four IN the NCAAT and the first four OUT…which has been a noticeable trend over the last several years. This fact also ties into an entry I did last year on whether or not parity exists in college basketball. While I argued that parity does not (and will not) exist at the top of the college basketball world, this graph certainly lends credence to parity at the next step down.

To further illustrate why a win or a loss results in such large moves, let’s look at State’s current portion of the rankings and the delta between one team and the next:

To be clear, the “Delta RPI” shows how close each team is to the one ranked one spot higher. So it should be obvious that the difference between a win and a loss will usually mean multiple positions in the ranking. This small Delta also means that no bubble team is truly IN or OUT even this late into the season.

Hopefully this discussion will also clear up a question that I get nearly every year….How much will State’s “RPI” change if such and such happens? Even if you assume an outcome for a number of State’s games, you cannot calculate how much the ranking would change unless you also assume the results of a dozen or more other teams. Just remember, winning is always good and losing is always bad…and let’s leave the math to someone that is getting paid to do it.

As we move onto our weekly summaries, I’ll highlight a few more examples of a weak bubble.

 

ACC UPDATE

Here are the ACC teams sorted on RPI Rankings (from CBS after games played on Sunday):

 

Miami lost mid-week and their game at BC got postponed yesterday, while State and Pitt both won over the weekend. So both winning teams have moved above Miami (at least for the time being).

Syracuse continues their downward spiral (as predicted).

Clemson’s RPI is lower than any team ever to receive an at-large bid, but let’s look at their position on the Dance Card:

 

So we see that Clemson’s resume (even with a horrid RPI) is good enough to sneak several spots above the calculated burst point. I think that this also shows how weak the Bubble is this year.

For State’s OOC wins, BSU is still hanging around and Tenn looks to be fading. Go Broncos!!!

Time for the RPI trend graphs:

More examples of a Weak Bubble:

Mid-week, Syracuse jumped 8 spots with a road win against BC. (BC !!!!)

Pitt moved up three spots with a LOSS at Louisville.

Miami moved up two spots without even playing.

I think that I’ve presented enough data that I can quit beating the “Weak Bubble” drum for now. The bottom line is: win and you are virtually guaranteed to move up. So let’s take a little closer look at the ACC Bubble Teams:

 

PITT

Through a fortunate bit of scheduling, Pitt had four of the last five games at home. By playing well, they won all four home games, including key victories against UNC and ND. This good streak of BB gives this Pitt team more Top-50 wins that last year’s team got all year. However, the Dance Card still shows them one spot below the burst line. So they need to keep winning and here are their last regular season games:

Feb 16    @No.2 Virginia

Feb 21    @Syracuse

Feb 24    Boston College

Mar 1    @Wake Forest

Mar 4    Miami (Fla.)

Mar 7    @Florida St.

Even with 4 of the last 6 on the road, Pitt should have an NCAAT bid wrapped up before the ACCT starts. Anything less would have to be termed a huge disappointment.

 

MIAMI

Including Monday afternoon’s win over BC gives Miami a 2-4 record over the last six games and a significantly weakened position versus the Bubble. While they are still above the calculated burst line, losses to GT, FSU, and WF should have Canes fans concerned. The do have the big road win at Duke along with two victories over fellow Bubble teams (NCSU and Illinois), so they are not in bad shape….but need to pick up the pace.

I have my ACC Strength of Schedule spreadsheet up and running and it appears that Miami will end up with one of the easiest conference schedules this year. So any team that wins in Durham, yet fails to make the NCAAT with an easy conference schedule would have to be considered “under-performing”.

Here’s Miami’s remaining regular season schedule:

Feb 18    Va. Tech

Feb 21    @No.12 Louisville

Feb 25    Florida St.

Feb 28    No.15 N. Carolina

Mar 4    @Pittsburgh

Mar 7    @Va. Tech

 

This stretch of games looks tougher than the last six, so Miami is going to have to pick up the pace if they are going to lock down a bid before the ACCT.

Note that Miami’s win on Monday afternoon is not included in the RPI rankings/graph above, but is included in the ACC standings at the bottom of the entry.

 

CLEMSON

Clemson dug themselves a huge hole early with a weak OOC schedule (currently ranked #192) and playing horribly with losses to South Carolina (#104), Rutgers (#138), Gardner-Webb (#166), and Winthrop (#219). They do have a few good points to the season with wins against #18 Arkansas and wins against bubble teams NC State, Pitt, and LSU.

I wouldn’t want to head into Selection Sunday with an RPI ranking below what has EVER been selected before. So the Tiggers need to pick up the pace and here is their remaining schedule:

Feb 16    @Georgia Tech

Feb 21    @No.4 Duke

Feb 28    Georgia Tech

Mar 3    N.C. State

Mar 7    @No.10 Notre Dame

 

NC STATE

State’s road win over Louisville gives them enough “big” wins to get an at-large bid. Now they just need to get enough total victories to secure an at-large bid. So how many wins will that take?

Saying that a 4-1 record will secure a bid is as insightful as saying that water is wet. However, projecting a sure bid with results worse than that runs the risk of being overly optimistic. The bottom line is that the minimum acceptable record will depend on what everyone around State on the bubble does.

Gott hit it right when he said that State could beat anyone remaining on the schedule and could easily lose to any of them. The remainder of the season should prove interesting….and I mean that in context of the old Chinese curse.

 

ACCT BUBBLE

I didn’t even know that Miami and BC were playing this afternoon until I pulled up their schedule at CBS Sports. So I’ve updated the standings for the result of that game, but I’m going to publish this entry before the Monday night games are played. So here’s what we have for now:

 

 

Thanks to Syracuse pulling out of the ACCT, the “States” are hanging onto a Wed start with a two-game lead over WF. But it’s also interesting to note that Clemson only has a one game lead over both of them.

Last year, everyone that started on the second day of the ACCT had a 0.500 or better conference record. FSU might hold onto their Wed Start, but I wouldn’t bet on them reaching 0.500 this year.

 

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

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Viewing 21 posts - 76 through 96 (of 96 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #74692
    hpack
    Participant

    I don’t have a problem with SG. Good coach that inexplicably refused to play the selection game.

    #74693
    tractor57
    Participant

    Having been warned OCC was an issue and not dealing with to me makes him a fool.

    #74699
    Tau837
    Participant

    As I posted previously, I think these scenarios get us in without winning a game in the ACC tournament:

    1. Finish regular season 4-1. Doesn’t really matter to whom we lose, though it wouldn’t seem great if it was either home game (VT = bad loss; Syracuse = last game). Regardless, that would be 19-12 (10-8) regular season against a top 5-10 SOS, with at least two marquee wins and no bad losses.

    2. Finish regular season 3-2 with two of the wins over UNC (another marquee win on the road) and VT (to avoid a bad loss). 18-13 (9-9) against a top 5-10 SOS, with 3 marquee wins, including 2 on the road, and no bad losses. This one is a bit dicier, but I’d be surprised if it wasn’t enough.

    Not holding my breath for either scenario.

    No less than 3 more wins is required unless we win the ACC tournament. No team has ever received an at-large bid with 15 or more losses.

    Most likely scenario seems to be finish 3-2 with loss to UNC, wins over VT and Syracuse at home, and split of the 2 other road games. In that scenario, we probably need to win 1 game in the ACC tournament to feel secure. I don’t think 2 wins would be required, but that would clinch it.

    #74700
    Heelh8r
    Participant

    Louisville taking a L to Syracuse. Every time we get the big W, that team loses again to take some of the shine off of it.

    #74701
    JeremyH
    Participant

    Duke taking it to UNC but UNC hangin in there, down 7 halftime.

    UNC will be a tough game for us. Need to contain Paige and keep them off the offensive boards (they seem bigger than us). Also their bigs (Tokoto, Meeks) seem to have decent jumpers. Will require a solid game plan to stay close.

    #74702
    JeremyH
    Participant

    Not sure why Louisville is #12. Only Marque wins are UNC at home and a #14 Ohio State. Although they did win @Miami by 8 (we could not).

    #74703
    JeremyH
    Participant

    Carolina sneaking back in, down 3 with 16:00 left, Living off the offensive boards.

    #74705
    Fastback68
    Participant

    Have fun this weekend FSU, Pitt, Clemson and Miami. State just win and gain a game on these teams in the standings.

    #74709
    JimValvano
    Participant

    I’m not sure why the Cheaters are #15. The only Marque wins they have are at home against Louisville and at a neutral site against Ohio State.

    #74711
    JimValvano
    Participant

    The Tarholes are 1-5 against RPI Top 25 teams. They are 1-6 against RPI Top 26 teams (Notre Dame is 26th in RPI). Their biggest win is over Louisveille (RPI 19) with their next best wins being against Ohio State (35), NC State (43), UCLA (47), and Davidson (47).

    The Tarholes only road wins this season over RPI Top 100 teams on the road were against State (43) and Clemson (86).

    They are losers of 4 of their last 5 games with their lone win during that period coming at home against Boston College.

    #74712
    Heelh8r
    Participant

    That makes the Cheaters sound like a terrible team. I wish it were so. Anyone who watched that game last night, it looked like a final four match up, and it will take our best effort of the esason yet to beat them. I’d wager that Ol’ Roy is taking plenty of heat for losing that game. It was on him. I do not believe he will be there much longer. He cannot be having any fun.

    #74713
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    I’m not sure why the Cheaters are #15.

    #15 in what? If you’re talking about the polls, there is no reason to even waste time wondering.

    They’re 12th in RPI rankings with the 3rd rated SOS. That high SOS counts for a lot; just like it does for State.

    #74716
    JimValvano
    Participant

    #15 in the Polls, but #12 in RPI. Weird thing is…State is #43 in RPI with a SOS that is similar, PLUS we’re 2-5 against RPI Top 25 teams. Strange that there is such a big gap.

    #74717
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    #15 in the Polls, but #12 in RPI. Weird thing is…State is #43 in RPI with a SOS that is similar, PLUS we’re 2-5 against RPI Top 25 teams. Strange that there is such a big gap.

    Not weird if you notice that UNC is 4-1 against 51-100 and 6-0 against 101-200. State is 3-3 against 51-100 and 5-1 against 101-200. I wouldn’t call that gap strange at all.

    Remember RPI ranking is just where does your RPI percentage fall in relation to everyone else. In this example you have #12 vs #48 (per the CBS page I brought up) thus a difference in ranking of 36 spots.

    UNC is 0.6289
    State is 0.5770
    That’s a delta of 0.0519.

    If you apply that same delta to UNC you have a difference in ranking you get 0.6808 which would be good for #3 thus a difference in ranking of 9 spots. You apply the same difference below State and you get 0.5251 or #124 ranking thus a difference of 76 spots. The same delta changes the spot differential due to the number of teams closer together.

    In a nut shell, you have 9 teams 0.0519 percentage points below #3, you have 36 teams 0.0519 percentage points below #12, and you have 76 teams 0.0519 percentage points below #48. Same difference but more teams thus the larger change in ranking.

    #74742
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    Espn Bubble Watch, updated today (2/20)

    Last weekend, the NCAA held its annual media mock selection exercise. …

    For example: This week, one committee member told Grantland’s Mark Titus: “I care more about who you can beat than who can beat you.” Do big wins matter more than bad losses? Detroit Free Press writer Joe Rexrode told his readers that the mock committee looked at “every possible number and intangible measure of quality,” including “individual players who make a team more viable — such as Green Bay point guard Keifer Sykes.” That sounds like a new idea, but it could easily explain NC State’s surprise T.J. Warren-led bid last season. The Chicago Tribune’s Teddy Greenstein wrote that the mock committee debated the meaning of a bad loss — whether, say, Iowa’s Jan. 20 blowout defeat at Wisconsin fit that category. (Our own Mike Tirico, who called the game, thought so.)

    There is a risk to parsing too much here; there’s (obviously) a huge difference between the mock committee and the committee itself.

    Still, taken together, even mock discussions offer a useful reminder: The composition of the NCAA tournament is more art than science. For every “official” guideline the committee must follow, there might be a dozen personal quirks brought to bear when the bubble arguments get tight. One member doesn’t care about bad losses. Another member thinks a star player should push a team over the top. Another places more value on recent performance than official guidelines suggest. Another knows a coach tried to schedule well but got stuck with opponents having down years. Another ends a heated S-Curve argument by simply asking “Who would you rather play?” Another places way too much value on her own “eye test.” Who knows?

    That’s why Kansas State — if it were, like, 15-12 and not 13-14, with an even remotely reasonable RPI — would be such a fun argument in the committee room. The Wildcats have great wins and terrible losses and a star guard (Marcus Foster) and a bunch of weird stretches in their season that could be interpreted very differently by people with different personal priorities. At the end of the day, that’s all the committee is: a bunch of people with opinions. We can analyze résumés and look at historical trends and try to introduce as much science as possible. Opinions, and the people who have them, are rarely so simple as that.

    Pretty fascinating.

    #74746
    backthebackagain
    Participant

    Espn Bubble Watch, updated today (2/20)

    Last weekend, the NCAA held its annual media mock selection exercise. …

    For example: This week, one committee member told Grantland’s Mark Titus: “I care more about who you can beat than who can beat you.” Do big wins matter more than bad losses? Detroit Free Press writer Joe Rexrode told his readers that the mock committee looked at “every possible number and intangible measure of quality,” including “individual players who make a team more viable — such as Green Bay point guard Keifer Sykes.” That sounds like a new idea, but it could easily explain NC State’s surprise T.J. Warren-led bid last season. The Chicago Tribune’s Teddy Greenstein wrote that the mock committee debated the meaning of a bad loss — whether, say, Iowa’s Jan. 20 blowout defeat at Wisconsin fit that category. (Our own Mike Tirico, who called the game, thought so.)

    There is a risk to parsing too much here; there’s (obviously) a huge difference between the mock committee and the committee itself.

    Still, taken together, even mock discussions offer a useful reminder: The composition of the NCAA tournament is more art than science. For every “official” guideline the committee must follow, there might be a dozen personal quirks brought to bear when the bubble arguments get tight. One member doesn’t care about bad losses. Another member thinks a star player should push a team over the top. Another places more value on recent performance than official guidelines suggest. Another knows a coach tried to schedule well but got stuck with opponents having down years. Another ends a heated S-Curve argument by simply asking “Who would you rather play?” Another places way too much value on her own “eye test.” Who knows?

    That’s why Kansas State — if it were, like, 15-12 and not 13-14, with an even remotely reasonable RPI — would be such a fun argument in the committee room. The Wildcats have great wins and terrible losses and a star guard (Marcus Foster) and a bunch of weird stretches in their season that could be interpreted very differently by people with different personal priorities. At the end of the day, that’s all the committee is: a bunch of people with opinions. We can analyze résumés and look at historical trends and try to introduce as much science as possible. Opinions, and the people who have them, are rarely so simple as that.

    Pretty fascinating.

    seems too subjective in my opinion. Almost like its better to have a friend on the committee or something. There dont seem to be any set rules and objectives.

    I have a funny feeling State is going to get screwed this year based on our recent luck with the selection process. I hope I am wrong

    #74747
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    seems too subjective in my opinion. Almost like its better to have a friend on the committee or something. There dont seem to be any set rules and objectives.

    I have a funny feeling State is going to get screwed this year based on our recent luck with the selection process. I hope I am wrong

    While having friends is never a bad thing, the Selection Committee is surprisingly consistent from year to year. The authors of the Dance Card discuss this because without consistency they could never have developed an algorithm to predict what the Selection Committee will do. The accuracy of the Dance Card algorithm proves to me that the Selection Committee is pretty consistent.

    However, I do not want State to be in the last-four-in/first-four-out discussion. Since the final decision is made by people, there might be some that feel that State got a gift last year and someone else should get one this year. Remember…just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean that they aren’t out to get you.

    #74753
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    While having friends is never a bad thing, the Selection Committee is surprisingly consistent from year to year. The authors of the Dance Card discuss this because without consistency they could never have developed an algorithm to predict what the Selection Committee will do. The accuracy of the Dance Card algorithm proves to me that the Selection Committee is pretty consistent.

    ^I agree. I feel each iteration of the committee is very objective in their subjective selections 🙂

    #74757
    backthebackagain
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>VaWolf82 wrote:</div>
    While having friends is never a bad thing, the Selection Committee is surprisingly consistent from year to year. The authors of the Dance Card discuss this because without consistency they could never have developed an algorithm to predict what the Selection Committee will do. The accuracy of the Dance Card algorithm proves to me that the Selection Committee is pretty consistent.

    ^I agree. I feel each iteration of the committee is very objective in their subjective selections :)

    My gut says we still get screwed somehow this year. We have been very fortunate lately.

    #74760
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    My gut says we still get screwed somehow this year. We have been very fortunate lately.

    Personally, I don’t think we’ll get screwed if we take care of business.

    If we continue to live in that last four in/last four out territory, we won’t be what I would considered ‘screwed’ if we don’t get in.

    #74761
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    ^
    Thank you Paki.
    You just saved me a good deal of needed energy.

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