Lowlights – State in a spiral

14-15 Basketball92

State is in a spiral. The ultimate question that needs to be answered will be, “Is State in a DEATH spiral?”. All is not lost yet. But, it is slipping away fast. The Pack has fallen to the wrong side of all projected NCAA Tournament bubbles and currently sits at #56 in the RPI having played the 4th toughest schedule in the country. State has five wins over teams currently ranked in the Top 100; and hasn’t lost to a single team ranked worse than #85 (Purdue). With a record of 13-9 overall, however, State MUST win some games to have an overall record attractive enough to merit an NCAA Tournament bid.

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Home › Forums › Lowlights – State in a spiral

Viewing 18 posts - 76 through 93 (of 93 total)
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  • 01/30/2015 at 4:19 PM #72226
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Pretty well established that it was turgeon who curtsied to the boys in blue. I’m also fairly certain that dy, who I like and respect, was saving face with the Gary Williams comment. I have no doubt he wasn’t a good reference, but I’m also certain that wasn’t the straw that broke the camel’s back. Marshall wasn’t the first choice, and he knew it.

    01/30/2015 at 4:20 PM #72227
    backthebackagain
    Participant

    If, and I stress if, say Gott loses a combination of Abu, Freeman, Twins, Anya, or Cat is he on the hot seat next season just on general principle?

    I can see (and probably expect) Freeman to go somewhere else and it wouldnt surprise me if Cat left as well.

    I would put the twins leaving around 20%, Abu 20% and Anya 30+%. Those are unlikely to happen.

    01/30/2015 at 4:31 PM #72228
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Just so I’m clear, yow went after Shaka, who had in fact beaten Marshall in the first round of the NCAA that year, in a round 1 game that never should’ve been. Both teams were probably under seeded. Think it was a 5 vs 12 match. Smart was the new coaching darling, but Marshall’s resume was far better. We went after the fresh face. Didn’t work out as retold above. Marshall didn’t like being second fiddle. The $ and anything gw may have said had little impact.

    01/30/2015 at 4:48 PM #72229
    ryebread
    Participant

    I don’t think Marshall’s ego wanted to be anything other than the #1 pick. I think he’d be that now.

    01/30/2015 at 5:06 PM #72232
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Think the Marshall ship has likely sailed, but if a long term offer was made, and a genuine apology tendered, who knows. He wanted this job twice.

    There are other Marshall’s out there. I’m not convinced on Archie, and think we’ve probably got our guy for a few more years unless ticket sales and attendance really take a dive or there’s an off the court incident that brings unwanted attention.

    You have to understand, Marshall has turned down multiple acc and sec gigs that I know of, and that was before the final 4 run. He’s a smart guy and requires a different approach. I don’t think he’ll be at Wichita state forever, but he can pretty well pick and choose terms and timing at this point.

    01/30/2015 at 5:30 PM #72235
    choppack1
    Participant

    White shoes – idk. If there are other Marshall’s out there I don’t know of them. He killed it in his first gig and is killing it now.

    That doesn’t mean that he won’t struggle in the rarified air of a major conference going up against legendary coaches several times a year, but it means his track record is incredible.

    As for the first search – you’re correct. Yow went all-in on shaka and a guy like Marshall doesn’t appreciate that. While I can’t blame her for pursuing smart – the cynic in me thinks she liked his confidence and swagger more than Marshall’s – so he was the first choice.

    But still – time has shown that both of these coaches are damn good.

    One would hope that we didn’t completely burn this bridge with yow at the helm but that’s certainly possible and is a similar miss to PJ vs. Tob.

    01/31/2015 at 8:03 AM #72271
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    If there are other Marshall’s out there I don’t know of them.

    I’d like to know who these guys are, too.

    I am fully aware that timing is always an issue in hiring, and sometimes the stars just don’t align for you. But it would be perfectly NC State-like and just our luck to sit back and watch a top coaching prospect, who happens to be an alum and not that long ago, absolutely kill it somewhere else for a career.

    01/31/2015 at 8:14 AM #72272
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    It can’t be a death spiral because next season is essentially a “do over” in terms of personnel, unless something really rotten is going on, that nobody behind the scenes is aware of (and they have had the chance to root around and find out the last week or two).

    THAT SAID, there’s now a metric f-ckton of pressure on next season. It has to be SPECIAL. Not another bubble journey. Clear Top 20. No late flameouts.

    Now, even that said…I have no idea what the repurcussions of MISSING that appropriate performance standard would be. Would DY really fire the guy she stuck her neck out to hire, as long as there was some tangible reason/excuse? Dunno. Would the money be available, given that we foolishly stayed in the low-rent ACC, and will likely need to pony up for a Doeren extension/raise at some point in the near future? Also dunno.

    01/31/2015 at 9:56 AM #72278
    redcanine
    Participant

    The best possible situation, which I am hoping for, is that Gottfried gets his mess together. I want HIM to deliver! I don’t want him to get canned. I want to know that he’s full of piss and vinegar, and that he’s proud of his battle scars. If he coaches like he’s coaching for his job, it can go one of two ways: unite his team -or- throw in the towel.

    Kevin Ollie had a one year trial run, and boy did he impress. He had plenty of motivation. That man comes off as having a real fire in his belly. Shaka & Marshall too, and presumably countless others.

    I wanna see Gott’s spirit rekindled. I sure hope he’s not expecting us to pat him on the back and tell him it’s okay. His motivation needs to come from within. So how badly does he want to win?

    01/31/2015 at 10:02 AM #72279
    MattN
    Participant

    How in the bloody HELL did we beat Duke?

    01/31/2015 at 10:21 AM #72280
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    How in the bloody HELL did we beat Duke?

    The same way we nearly beat UVA, ND and UNC. It’s not that we can’t play with the top teams. It’s that we are grossly inconsistent.

    01/31/2015 at 10:55 AM #72285
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    Duke isn’t that good. They are a very high variance team. As are we, just with a much lower floor (much like Miami).

    01/31/2015 at 11:52 AM #72294
    Adventuroo
    Participant

    Never thought about what you guys just said….YES, Duke has been inconsistent. YES, UNC has been inconsistent. YES, ND has been inconsistent. YES, Miama has been inconsistent (ask GT about how THEY snuck up on them).

    Tony Bennett’s UVA is probably the most consistent. One of the writers said that we showed we could play with the best….save UVA….on any given day. However, we, seem to play more inconsistently than the aforementioned.

    I’m getting nostalgic….listening Tony interview Corch (Sr.) about the GT game where V took 6 players and beat GT. I remember that. He made some valid points. Team is trying….and THEY don’t have a clue as to what happened. His son said that he and the NON-players took it just as hard.

    I KNOW that GOTT can coach….that has been proven. O is his suit….but we got Lutz for D. I am beginning to think that he is missing the ONE thing that gave us the 83 title….MOVITAVTION. Valvano (NOTE – SFN….add Valvano to the list of Correctly SPELLED words) could motivate anybody to do anything. If he had turned his “spell binding” talents to the pursuit of women…..he would have broken Wilt Chamberlin’s record….while in college.

    We need a MOTIVATED team. That is really, IMHO, Gott’s challenge now.

    Lutz is talking about how good we can be….how great our fans are….how happy that our fans STILL have the faith….he obviously does NOT understand our DNA..

    SO, Gott needs to get the team UP…That is the ONE thing that I thought that Shaka would bring….motivation and enthusiasm. Lowe had the enthusiasm…but there were personnel issues. HWWNBSOHA….BLAH….(Ophra in Burka); Les….forget it….nice guys can NOT be enough of a Prof. Harold Hill to get things done.

    GOTT needs to use his apparent “off court” persona and transfer it to the team. ORW loses it from time to time. Mikey is just Mikey….you do NOT challenge or cross GOD….ask Rasheed.

    SO, is that something that GOTT can learn….probably. He adapted WELL to ESPN and handles himself nicely. Just needs to get the guys “Prepared” and that is NOT X & O’s or drills….but convincing them that they CAN do this and he EXPECTS them to do so.

    Right now GOTT is talking about how he has challenged Trevor to be a better PG. That pretty much nails Cat’s future role. I now think that Cat’s Junior year will be on the bench waiting for his second chance…

    And all the above is PERSONAL opinion….no insider stuff….just rambling waiting for the game to start….

    BTW….Gott just said that Miami was NOT prepared, as in did not play like the team where were against GT and that GT took advantage of them having a really bad…just as bad as our Clemson outing…..GAME.

    GO PACK…

    01/31/2015 at 12:59 PM #72349
    Tau837
    Participant

    I expect we will make the tournament. And I don’t see us firing Gott if he makes 4 straight tournaments, especially given he has shown that he can bring in quality talent. Ask Georgia Tech fans if they would rather have a head coach who can land talent but isn’t a great coach (Hewitt) or a head coach who is a great coach but can’t land talent (Gregory). I suspect they all prefer the former.

    Gott is the best coach we have had since Valvano. Valvano coached his last game at State in 1990… nearly 25 years ago. State has hired 4 head coaches since then: Robinson, Sendek, Lowe, Gott. In at least the last 3 of those searches, the fan base thought we would land a top coach. But no top coaches have been interested enough to take the job in decades… Valvano wasn’t a top coach when he was hired. A top coach isn’t walking through that door.

    We have tried the up and coming young coach. That was Sendek, and we all know how badly that worked out.

    I am as frustrated as anyone that our team isn’t doing better this season. But IMO our fans need to be careful what they wish for.

    01/31/2015 at 4:10 PM #72565
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    ^Sendek had some big warning signs when he was hired. That was when everyone wanted a Pitino protégé come hell or high water. His small body of work as a head coach at Miami (OH) wasn’t really enough to gauge his talent, but his resume should’ve clearly said to those evaluating that he was very different than Pitino in several key respects. Sendek preferred man defense to zone. He didn’t press much. And his offense was fairly stagnant. He had Szerbiak and some other guy who could play at Miami, and they bailed him out a great deal.

    My point that there are other Marshall’s out there should’ve been clearer. I’m not suggesting that there are tons of coaches on that level. I am suggesting that there are up-and-comers that can be identified using the same criteria that should’ve been used to identify a guy like Marshall in the early 2000s.

    1. Did you build a program and consistently win? Or did you inherit a program that was already successfully? I want the former.

    2. Are you tops among your conference or peers? A must.

    3. Have you shown the ability to teach players and for them to show improvement? Easily gauged metric.

    4. Have you shown the ability to compete against larger schools, with more resources, and more talent? Again, easy to measure.

    Notice no where on my list is recruiting. It’s the most overrated of the coaching qualities, and it was the big reason many people had questions about Marshall while at Winthrop, along with his “reputation” or personality, which was a pile of bunk. If you can coach, you can coach anybody.

    It’s tougher to identify the assistant coaches who’ll have big impacts if they haven’t had smaller head coaching gigs, which is why I don’t go there. I also don’t go the alum route because I think there’s the potential for cloudy judgment. And I acknowledge that my criteria eliminates a lot of folks who are darn good coaches.

    01/31/2015 at 4:34 PM #72576
    Pack1998
    Participant

    Agree Coach Gottfried is the best we’ve had since Volcano.

    3 years and 3 NCAAs – keep in mind the team he inherited was last in the ACC.

    Gottfried coaching job last year was miracle work, he could have lost that team many times and didn’t.

    I expect this team to re-group and have a solid remaining season.

    P.S. For anyone arguing that he inherited talent, just look at the NBA rosters, that will tell you where the talent is. You can also check the other pro leagues.

    02/05/2015 at 10:55 PM #73456
    packalum44
    Participant

    Thanks goodness more folks are coming around. Though the big donors call the shots, populist opinion DOES have sway in AD office’s around the country.

    Mark is crashing and burning right before our eyes just like he did at Alabama. Erie really, but the skepticism most of us had immediately following this WTF hire, which was briefly pacified by 3 bubble dance invitations, is coming to fruition. I admit I was optimistic but I’ve seen enough there is no need to look back and dwell on our moot opinions and bog ourselves down in the emotions of the past.

    Labels of “good” and “bad” are too vague to be of any use debating. It would make more sense to say, for example, that Mark isn’t one of the top 25 coaches out there. He’s likely not top 50…maybe just outside. But at that point there’s really little difference.

    Bottom line: his teams underachieve based on the given talent levels. His recruiting, when adjusted for retention, is certainly nowhere near good enough to overcome his coaching deficiencies. Since the kids can now view G’s track record, the top 10 classes are a thing of the past.

    Being an AD is like being a CEO. You don’t have to be an expert at what the company does. Plenty of CEOs switch industries and succeed. What you have to be an expert at is judging and managing people.

    Kaboommmmm. No its even worse. Mediocrity abounds. More like a pathetic whimper that the adults hear but don’t pay any attention. We are a very poor institution with little walking around money….in the bottom quin-tile of BCS schools and maybe worse. Unlikely G is canned until next year or God help us the year after. This program continues to be mired in a complete and holistic cloak of irrelevance. But keep smiling ye’ faithful the sun rises tomorrow and HOPE soothes the sorrow of the wretched.

    02/05/2015 at 11:35 PM #73458
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    ^sounds like an idiot to me…

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