State Wins ACC Opener as ACC officials call 51 fouls

14-15 Basketball64

State shook off the road loss at Purdue and — after six early turnovers tonight — used a solid effort to defeat Wake Forest at home by a score of 78-65. For those of you keeping count in Las Vegas, the Wolfpack entered the game as a 9.5 point favorite.

State improves to 7-1 (1-0) and will be atop the ACC for at least the next month after the (very) early season league win.

Ralston Turner led State with 21 points; Lacey had 15 and Barber 14. Anya had 5 blocks. State shot 26-47 (55.3%) from the floor, but the struggles at the free throw line continued (22-33, 66.7%)

Box Score (ESPN)

After this win, the Wolfpack will be sitting somewhere around #40 in the RPI. Not a bad spot with some RPI helpers on the schedule in the coming month.

The great news is that because State won we can all point out just how awful the officiating was without complaining about losing. For those keeping score, some guy named Bill Covington was flanked by ACC ‘stalwarts’, JAMIE Luckie and Brian Dorsey. You know, the same Brian Dorsey who was on the floor the day that the ACC refs rammed NC State in the 2012 ACC Tournament that and that reportedly told Coach Gottfriend…click here.

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14-15 Basketball

Home › Forums › State Wins ACC Opener

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 65 total)
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  • 12/09/2014 at 12:54 AM #64860
    freshmanin83
    Participant

    When Lukie strikes its bad for you.

    12/09/2014 at 1:19 AM #64863
    ryebread
    Participant

    Bill: I actually think Lacey as the PG and Barber as the 2G may end up working well. It could be shades of Harrow down at G. Southern. He never really broke out until he got back to just scoring like he did in High School. Barber broke Iverson’s scoring marks, which suggests to me that he’s a scorer first and just isn’t a natural point.

    It may not be the best thing for Lacey, but it may be the best thing for Barber and the team. Something tells me that Lacey cares more about winning than he does about scoring 4 extra PPG.

    I also think that Lacey left Alabama for more reasons than wanting to play 2G. I suspect a lot of it had to do with the complete lack of offense that Grant plays. Or, heaven forbid, he could have just liked Gott? I mean, he did commit to him very early originally.

    I also suspect a year on the bench matured him, and a year of watching TJW probably showed him just how big the talent gap is for a NBA level player. He’s one of the few who seems smart enough and mature enough to see a more realistic end game. He may have thought he was NBA bound when he left Alabama, but may have gained perspective last year.

    12/09/2014 at 2:35 AM #64866
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    rye…

    I don’t disagree at all…
    except to say that in the long run … if Lacy wants to be a Coach, the best position on the court he could play would be at the Point… which is not to forget that plenty of good coaches played other positions…

    Either way, there’s nothing readily apparent holding him back in regards to a long future in Coaching after he is finished playing…

    As much as we here at SFN have fussed about the lack of BB-IQ / Court=Sense on the last several teams, Lacy appears to have more of that than any two guys on any of those teams…

    And the proof of your thinking that he wants to win more than score… I think is revealed best in the few glimpses we have seen of his ‘temper’… He and Hess had a moment together Saturday night after that out of bounds call in the fourth quarter… and if you noticed what he said to Hess after the Technical was totally different than what he said to Coach Gott during the Timeout that followed…

    In the previous game he got in a little scuffle whereupon words were exchanged… after the clock started, he GOTT the ball, drove to the rim, and tried to put both the ball and his ‘mouthy’ defender in the basket at the same time… the ball went in, but the defender’s mouth was a little too big to fit… nevertheless Lacy had made his #STATEment…

    Moments like these, tell us a lot about who Lacy the ballplayer really is… Kid’s got some fire in his belly… but plays with a whole lot of control… both of which are good.

    As beej likes to say… “Anthony carries a switchblade”… but Lacy has the knockout punch.

    All of which leads me to believe that will come on around by the end of the month.

    Anya’s “enthusiasm”, on the other hand, is more problematic… and finding a ‘solution’ is just as important to the success of this Team as smoothing out things in the backcourt.

    Coach knows what to do… we’ll see.

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 7:29 AM #64875
    Rick
    Keymaster

    CowDog: Do we need to do the exact same exercise for Dorsey and Hull to prove there is clearly officiating issues in the ACC?

    Best thing to do is ignore him. Cowdog played football and should stick to pontificating about what he knows. We show him facts he argues his opinion.

    Next comes his “old man threats” because I dared to question his opinion.

    12/09/2014 at 8:52 AM #64876
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    Cuz… I GOTT this….

    ^ricky…. the problem with your observation and suggestion is that Mr.Dog’s Pop… Mr.Dog, Sr…
    is in the New York State High School Hall of Fame as a BASKETBALL COACH…

    which simply put… translates… you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 9:20 AM #64878
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Thanx, Mr. Bill.
    Well, that didn’t take long, Ricky.

    Since you’ve seen it fit to open with the first salvo, let me remind you of something, especially in your role of site sheriff.

    “Old man” threats come to those who personally attack, not to those of differing opinion.

    If you’d like to continue down this path…ie, point out to the nation that
    “Cowdog” is a ref fellator, as you so elequently put it last year, I shall continue to suggest you stick it. Right there in that thimble full of basketball knowledge of yours.

    It’s only December.

    12/09/2014 at 9:22 AM #64879
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    Pups need never forget.. “Old men don’t fight fair… An Old man will hurt you…”
    Most of us ain’t GOTT but one good punch and it’s gonna count…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 9:35 AM #64880
    JasonP
    Participant

    Ever since I saw that fight at the rest home while visiting my grandma, where an old lady used a fork as a shiv on another old lady who was ticking her off, I don’t mess with old folks (I didn’t before this, but this instance solidified my logic). They’re wiley, cagey, and as bill says, they’ll hurt you. When all else fails, they’ll just run over you. I’ve had to dodge a few geezer-driven Cadi’s in my day.

    Great to see a win in the ACC opener. And btw; nice impressive home schedule with Tenn, WV, Cincinatti and La Tech before taking on Pitt. Really enjoy a State program that takes OOC scheduling seriously again.

    12/09/2014 at 9:37 AM #64881
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    ^^ NP Cuz…

    … and I’m doubtful ricky wants to play two on one…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 9:54 AM #64882
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    12/09/2014 at 9:56 AM #64883
    Rick
    Keymaster
    bill.onthebeach wrote:

    Cuz… I GOTT this….

    ^ricky…. the problem with your observation and suggestion is that Mr.Dog’s Pop… Mr.Dog, Sr…
    is in the New York State High School Hall of Fame as a BASKETBALL COACH…

    which simply put… translates… you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about…

    And my father is a civil engineer. That does not mean I know jack abou how to build a road.
    I stand by my comments. I have provided evidence of my point of view and the response is simply “I know better”. I guess next will be some soliloquy about peach baskets and jumping center after every basket. Because both are as relevant as the response I have received to my actual research.

    12/09/2014 at 10:12 AM #64884
    Rick
    Keymaster

    “Old man” threats come to those who personally attack, not to those of differing opinion.

    I call BS. Your response to research was and I quote “If you guys are gonna really watch. Really watch.”
    You are completely dismissive of any opinion other than your own even when given evidence that differs from your opinion. Just as eye witness testimony is notoriously wrong so are observations which is why I looked at the actual data. It is hard to argue with my findings which is obviously why you did not even try.

    12/09/2014 at 10:18 AM #64885
    pakfanistan
    Participant
    Rick wrote:

    And my father is a civil engineer. That does not mean I know jack abou how to build a road.
    I stand by my comments. I have provided evidence of my point of view and the response is simply “I know better”. I guess next will be some soliloquy about peach baskets and jumping center after every basket. Because both are as relevant as the response I have received to my actual research.

    Could you try not being the worst for a little while?

    I don’t understand why you’re dead set on running off one of the more interesting posters on here.

    Rick wrote:

    I call BS. Your response to research was and I quote “If you guys are gonna really watch. Really watch.”
    You are completely dismissive of any opinion other than your own even when given evidence that differs from your opinion. Just as eye witness testimony is notoriously wrong so are observations which is why I looked at the actual data. It is hard to argue with my findings which is obviously why you did not even try.

    His point was there are two other officials on the court, and pulling up stats in retrospect isn’t giving the whole picture.

    Confirmation bias is as real as the failings of eye witness testimony.

    12/09/2014 at 10:36 AM #64890
    ryebread
    Participant

    Personal attacks aside, I’m actually serious in my inquiry. If you look at the link of last season’s thread about this topic, you’ll see a lot of “don’t want to talk about this” or “you don’t know what you’re talking about” type of comments.

    Let’s just look at the targeting of TJW in games that Luckie called. We didn’t know it at the time of that thread, but that was the ACC player of the year.

    When’s the last time the ACC player of the year got such bi-polar treatment? It sure didn’t happen to Hansborough, Zeller, Lawson or Nolan Smith. Here’s a foul comparison:
    – Hansborough: 1. 3 foul outs in 4 years. Hansborough only had 77 fouls called against him the entire season, which was good for 705th in the nation.
    – Zeller: 2. 2 foul outs in 4 years. His 2 foul outs his senior year were good for 552nd in the nation.
    – Lawson: 0. He fouled out 2 times in 3 seasons, both his freshman year.
    – Smith: 0. He fouled out 1 time in 4 years, as a sophomore.

    One could argue that Lawson and Smith were guards and therefore less prone to fouling. That doesn’t explain the Zeller and Hansborough numbers. Hansborough in particular played the most physical inside game that I’ve seen in 20 years in the ACC, and drew more fouls than any player in league history. Yet, he seemingly never fouled out?

    What about the tempo adjusted stats for UNC players? They’re even more staggering. UNC should have more fouls because they get more possession, yet they somehow amazingly foul less?

    Now, let’s re-look at TJW, the ACC player of the year. Warren fouled out 5 times last year, which was the 3rd highest foul out rate in the ACC. He had the 7th most fouls called on him in the entire league at 94. Okay, so it looks like he fouled a lot, but let’s take a closer look.

    TJW fouled out 3 times in the regular season. All three times were games that Luckie called. Luckie called 5 NC State regular season games, and Warren fouled out a staggering 60% of them, while not fouling out in another regular season game all year.

    Warren committed 97 fouls last year, but 22 of them were in 5 regular season games that Luckie called. So, 22% of his fouls came from the 5 games where Luckie was involved. Those 5 games represented only 13% of the total games that we played. Putting it another way, in those five games, his foul rate was 4.4 fouls per game. In all the other games, it was 2.41. That’s a 82% greater foul rate when Mr. Luckie is on the whistle.

    The numbers just don’t add up.

    12/09/2014 at 10:37 AM #64892
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    ricky… just because you’re a CE doesn’t mean you can build a road… it’s means you can ‘design a road’… hopefully…

    You need to be a grading contractor to build roads…

    Now… since we have to spell things out for you… if your Pop was a grading contractor, and you had gone to work with him starting when you were about Five years old and watched him build roads, and then later on, worked on his road building crews for about 10 years and then worked on some other grading contractor’s crews for another ten years .. I bet, as smart as you are, you could build a damn fine road…. with or without a lazer level… on most any type of ground…

    Just give it up and apologize..

    we all already know you know how to dig holes you can’t get out of…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 10:51 AM #64894
    Rick
    Keymaster

    Her eis a look at more data.
    Here is the information for Hull who Cowdog “watched”. I have not looked at it in the depth I did with Luckie last year but there is some good info nonetheless.

    In 2013-14 NCSU averaged 18.6 FPG (fouls per game) called against them

    Hull:
    Last year Hull called 5 NCSU games.
    2013-14 HUll’s average FPG were 37.5.
    2013-14 NCSU average FPG 20.6.
    NCSU was called for an average of two more calls per game when Hull was one of the refs.

    Luckie:
    Luckie called 7 NCSU games.
    2013-14
    Lucie’s average FPG were 38.
    2013-14 NCSU average FPG 22
    NCSU was called fro an average of 3.4 more calls per game when Luckie was one of the refs.

    Summary, in the games Luckie called against us we were called for more fouls than in the ones Hull called.

    12/09/2014 at 10:57 AM #64895
    Rick
    Keymaster

    Just give it up and apologize..

    And what pray tell should I be apologizing for? I have attempted to substantiate my argue with more than “because I know”. Is that what I am to apologize for? Please provide some detail as to what wrong I have committed. Other to raise the ire of you and cowdog.

    12/09/2014 at 10:59 AM #64896
    pakfanistan
    Participant
    ryebread wrote:

    Personal attacks aside, I’m actually serious in my inquiry. If you look at the link of last season’s thread about this topic, you’ll see a lot of “don’t want to talk about this” or “you don’t know what you’re talking about” type of comments.

    Let’s just look at the targeting of TJW in games that Luckie called. We didn’t know it at the time of that thread, but that was the ACC player of the year.

    …

    The numbers just don’t add up.

    I get it, but using the numbers the way you are assumes that all other variables (of which there are quite a few) are the same.

    The data we have just isn’t granular enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.

    12/09/2014 at 11:02 AM #64897
    ryebread
    Participant

    Cowdog: I respect you and your posts. Please don’t lump me in with anyone who might have some sort of ax to grind.

    You asked me to look into Hull and Dorsey.

    Here’s Hull:
    – NC State was 1-4 in games that Hull officiated. The lone win was against App State. We were 0-4 in league games with him.
    – Hull officiated 4 rather questionable NC State games — the WF loss, the Syracuse loss up in the Dome and Pitt loss where we had a huge lead early yet somehow fouled more than Pitt as they pushed us around to get back into the game and ultimately win. He also coached our 15 point home loss to Miami where Warren fouled out.
    – TJW with Hull? He fouled out 2 of the 4 games, or 50% of the time.

    Here’s Dorsey:
    – Dorsey called 5 games last year. They included that home jobbing against UNC (up big and lost), the ACC tournament loss to Duke, and that odd ball game against WF. He called our game down at Coral Gables that we won and at home against Long Beach State.
    – There’s a little less that jumps out at me regarding Dorsey, but I’ve not looked into it as much.

    It definitely makes you go “hmm.” I’ve picked Luckie because of the obvious linkage, but it appears that Hull and Dorsey could also be quite bad.

    12/09/2014 at 11:10 AM #64898
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant
    Rick wrote:

    Best thing to do is ignore him. Cowdog played football and should stick to pontificating about what he knows.

    ricky… Since you asked… might I suggest, Sir, that this would be a good place to start… with your apology to Mr. Cowdog.

    Otherwise… just keep on digging “your hole”… instead of ‘building that road’…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 11:16 AM #64899
    Rick
    Keymaster
    bill.onthebeach wrote:
    Rick wrote:

    Best thing to do is ignore him. Cowdog played football and should stick to pontificating about what he knows.

    ricky… Since you asked… might I suggest, Sir, that this would be a good place to start… with your apology to Mr. Cowdog.

    Otherwise… just keep on digging that hole… instead of ‘building that road’…

    I did not fire the first salvo on this thread but nonetheless I will be the bigger man. I apologize for saying cowdog should stick to something he knows and you should never ignore cowdog.

    12/09/2014 at 11:20 AM #64900
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    ^Thank you Rick.

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    12/09/2014 at 11:20 AM #64901
    Rick
    Keymaster
    pakfanistan wrote:
    ryebread wrote:

    Personal attacks aside, I’m actually serious in my inquiry. If you look at the link of last season’s thread about this topic, you’ll see a lot of “don’t want to talk about this” or “you don’t know what you’re talking about” type of comments.

    Let’s just look at the targeting of TJW in games that Luckie called. We didn’t know it at the time of that thread, but that was the ACC player of the year.

    …

    The numbers just don’t add up.

    I get it, but using the numbers the way you are assumes that all other variables (of which there are quite a few) are the same.

    The data we have just isn’t granular enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.

    I think we both unerstand that the numbers are not perfect but they are enough out of whack that it should raise some eyebrows and not be dismissed completely. If anyone know of a site that tracks calls by ref I will do the research to figure it out further.

    12/09/2014 at 11:22 AM #64902
    Rick
    Keymaster
    bill.onthebeach wrote:

    ^Thank you Rick.

    Does this mean we are friends again 😉

    12/09/2014 at 11:27 AM #64903
    Rick
    Keymaster

    A little more information
    In 2013-14 Luckie average 37.6 FPG in the ACC (below his average).
    In 2013-14 HUll averaged 36 FPG in the ACC (below his average).

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