And The Bubble Bursts…(major 3/18 update)

One of the entries that I’ve enjoyed most over the years is dissecting the talking heads and their inane “analyses” of teams that were wronged by the Selection Committee.    But even Dickie V couldn’t find a mid-major to champion this year.    Everyone was so upset over Louisville and Kentucky’s seeds that they apparently had no energy left for anything else.    So since I don’t have anyone to make fun of, let’s get down to the analysis.

Assuming that CBS got the first four out correct, here are summaries of their resumes along with the last four teams in and The Dance Card’s lone miss.

Table 1

As you would expect, everyone has some warts and we are going to have to pick through the garbage to find a few diamonds.    Let’s start with a few teams that are easy for me to eliminate.

Team “I”

  • Terrible RPI
  • Losing conference record
  • Poor performance in conference tournament

I guess that their Top-25 and Top-50 wins got them on the list, but those three negatives are virtually impossible to overcome.    (Georgetown, welcome to the NIT.)

 Team “C”

This team is like the question on a college exam that isn’t in the book, but was specifically covered in class.   This is an easy problem to solve as long as you didn’t skip class that day.

OOC SOS ~300 + Poor conference tourney = NIT.

It’s not that their Top-25 wins are exactly ignored (though their AP ranking is ignored).   This is strictly a punitive measure that we’ve seen levied against VT, Penn St, and Arizona St in recent years and now… SMU.

 Team “G”

Good OOC SOS and dramatically weaker overall SOS means that this team came from one of the low major conferences.   The 7-3 record over the last 10 games looks good, but this is simply a red herring.   1-1 against Top 25 and 0-1 against 26-50 means that they played virtually no one during the year and they also tanked in their own conference tournament.     This is the prototypical mid or low major resume that lands in the NIT…and usually ends up on Vitale’s whine list.    But I only saw one idiot (on CBS) that thought that Green Bay deserved consideration.

 Quick Review

Eliminating three teams means that four of the six teams left were selected.   Here’s an updated table:

Table 2

So where do we go from here?    Strangely enough, the two teams with the highest RPI ranking also have the most bad losses (ie against RPI 100+).   So do bad losses really matter?

 BAD LOSSES

The only bracketologist posted at SFN yesterday predicting a bid for State said something along the lines that they had fewer embarrassing losses than some of the other candidates.     He was obviously (and surprisingly) right about State, but was he correct about bad losses?    Specifically, does the presence or absence of bad losses mean anything significant?

I’ve always felt that the “bad loss” argument was over-blown though I’ve never taken the time to build an argument to support my feelings.   But it occurred to me last night that I was ignoring a huge piece of statistical evidence against the bad-loss theory because The Dance Card doesn’t include anything in their calculations for bad losses.   While not an absolute proof, the accuracy of the Dance Card’s predictions shows that bad losses don’t play a noticeable role in the selection process.

Further evidence against the bad loss theory is that teams A and B were both given at-large bids via the First Four.   At worst, the bad losses moved Tenn and Xavier (A&B respectively) to the Tue/Wed games, but they are still in.

So that leaves us with four teams to evaluate.  Two got in and two were left out:

Table 3

So what stands out?    Let’s pick out the best things that could be said about each team in this four-team group.

Team “D”

  • Tied for most Top-25 wins
  • Best RPI (probably insignificant)
  • Least bad losses (if you still believe in that)

Team “E”

Best performance in conference tournament (their only Top-25 win)

 Team “F”

  • Tied for most Top-25 wins
  • Most Top 50 wins

 Team “G”

Second most Top-50 wins

 

I put a lot more value into RPI than a lot around here.   So when I combine the worst RPI with a poor showing in the conference tournament, I would tend to drop Team “H” from the list.

But before I voted Team “H” off, I would want a closer look at all of the top wins since all four teams have six wins against the Top-100.   I would be concerned that the categories (Top 25, Top 50, etc) might create a perceived advantage to one team over another.   For example, if one team beat RPI #48 and another beat RPI #52, the parsing would make it look like the first team had a better win, when in fact the two wins are nearly equivalent.

I would like to get an honest, non-PC explanation on these four teams…but I’m not going to hold my breath.   In any case, I think that any honest evaluation would conclude that the Selection Committee had an extremely tough job coming up with the last four in.    So here is the last table repeated with the names of the last four teams that we are evaluating:

Table 4

With Ron Wellman as chairman of the Selection Committee, it would be easy to claim that politics played a role in getting State into the NCAAT.   However, with such slight differences between FSU and State, I don’t know of any reason for Wellman to favor one “State” over the other.    As I mentioned earlier, let’s look at the Top 100 wins for these last four schools that we’ve been discussing.

Last Four Details

The only thing that I see that favors State is that they did better in the conference tournament than any of the other three teams.     That seems to contradict statements made by earlier Selection Committees that all wins were treated equal and even Wellman kept talking on CBS last night about looking at each team’s entire resume.    So,  I don’t know exactly what tipped the scales in State’s favor.   But I’m certainly happy with the outcome.

3/18 ADDITIONS

My thanks to all of the useful comments and especially to the links as the various postmortems on the Selection Process are completed.   These links and quotes are extremely useful to me and I frequently review past entries to see if there is anything that I should do differently as I prepare similar entries for the current season.    While I almost never make major edits/additions once I get an entry up, there are several points to this year’s NCAAT selections that are important enough to document in the body of the main entry and not leave buried in the comments.

BYU and Bad Losses

One of the teams often portrayed as not deserving a bid is BYU.   The Selection Committee obviously disagreed and gave the Cougars a 10 seed.    So while some bozos in the media obviously disagree, BYU was clearly not a tough decision for the Selection Committee.    Here are a few tables to summarize BYU’s resume:

BYU BreakdownBYU Bad Losses

Looking at their W/L record broken down into various categories, anyone familiar with Herb’s NC State bubble teams would not be surprised that BYU got in and the seeding is quite familiar as well.   BYU’s wins against Gonzaga (20), Texas (36), and Stanford (41) clearly meet the minimum standard that Herb so thoroughly explored in Raleigh.

If the Selection Committee is going to penalize a team for a weak schedule, then they obviously should reward a team for playing a tough schedule.   While I frequently throw snide comments at Herb’s OOC scheduling, it is actually difficult to compare a mid-major resume to a team from one of the power conferences.   BYU’s schedule (especially the OOC schedule) is clearly tougher than Herb has EVER played.    But the conference schedule is weaker and it’s hard to tell exactly how all of those pieces fit together in the Selection Committee’s analysis.

But the key points are that BYU:

  • Clearly got enough top wins to earn a selection
  • Played a really tough OOC schedule and deserves some credit for that

BYU’s second table goes well with the earlier discussion of bad losses.    The Cougars provide another data point illustrating that while bad-losses often lead to meltdowns among the fan base, they are not significant to the Selection Committee.

IOWA and Stumbling Down the Stretch

In the past, stumbling down the stretch is one of the qualitative measures that I used to identify bubble teams that were in trouble.   However, the committee has recently stressed that they consider the whole body of work and don’t pay special attention to performance at the end of the season….which is a clear change from the past (especially with Herb’s NCSU teams).    Iowa was one of the last-four IN and illustrates that the simple fact of stumbling down the stretch no longer leads to the NIT.

Iowas StumbleThe fact of whether or not a team stumbled down the stretch is not a key point.   The point to pay close attention to is where did the stumble end.

 

NCSU vs SMU

Brett Friedlander had some good quotes from Ron Wellman (WF AD and Selection Committee Chairman) about the NC State selection that explain the Committee’s thought process:

“We tried to identify differentiators, things that are either very positive or negative about certain teams,” Wellman said “The positive factor for N.C. State was that they had three wins against top 50 teams away from home.

“Not only did they beat those top 50 teams (Tennessee, Pittsburgh and Syracuse), but they did it on the road. Road wins against top 50 teams are really, really impressive to the committee. That probably was the one factor that was most prominent.”

Another factor was nonconference strength of the schedule…According to Wellman, scheduling was the deciding factor between State as the last team in at 21-13 and SMU as the [first] team out at 23-9.

 

Louisville with a #4 Seed and UVA with a #1 seed

Once upon a time, I spent too much time creating a graph correlating RPI ranking with NCAAT seed to see how strong a correlation there was.      I was surprised at the strong correlation and decided that I would update the graph every year.     But some time later I was reading Jerry Palm’s old blog (collegerpi.com) and he said that 75% of the seeding decisions were within one seed of what you would calculate based solely on RPI.     (There is nothing quite as depressing as discovering something that turns out to be old news).   So while I didn’t bother with updating the graph, I have always used RPI as my starting (and frequently ending) point when it comes to seeding.

The one piece of “new” data that I discovered when doing the graph was that a top finish (first or second) in a power conference’s regular season standings would lead to a better seed than RPI would predict.   Teams often get a slight bump as well for winning the conference tournament, but not always as much as winning the regular season (based on relatively few data points).

So let’s look at UVA and Lousville.

UVA_LousivilleThe Selection Committee selects and seeds based only on this year’s resume.   The fact that Louisville won the NCAAT last year never entered into this year’s decision-making process.    I don’t know why it is so hard for people to figure out that the NCAA Selection Committee devised and have revised the RPI calculation to aid in selection and seeding of the NCAAT.   They don’t care about Sagarin, Pomerory, AP Polls, or least of all ESPN’s BPI.   They care about what teams have proven versus the their criteria.

It wouldn’t shock me if Louisville won a head-to-head matchup against UVA.    But looking at this year’s resume, I would be shocked if Louisville had been awarded the two-seed that so many of the talking heads think that they deserve.    Bottom line….Louisville got a small bump over what RPI would predict and their relatively weak schedule hurt them in both RPI and seeding.     Other teams (including UVA) proved that they deserved their seeding by playing and beating other good teams.   Louisville was 5-5 against the RPI Top-50 and that doesn’t impress me.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

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Home Forums And The Bubble Bursts…(Major 3/18 Update)

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 99 total)
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  • #47287
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    It’s been confirmed (through unofficial channels, but confirmed) that it was SMU who got bumped for us, specifically.

    If SMU had gotten in, the selection committee would owe Seth Greenberg an apology. I honestly believe that any team with an OOC schedule that weak will have to do something special to get in.

    It happens too often for it to be anything other than a punitive decision. As I mentioned, it’s happened to VT, Penn St, and Arizona State just in the last few years.

    In 2009, Penn State had six Top-50 wins and two of those were Top-25 wins. OOC SOS ranked #304 and 1-1 in the conference tourney landed them in the NIT. Discussed here:

    Selection Sunday Bubble Thoughts

    #47290
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I don’t buy the TJ Warren argument at all. That makes absolutely no sense and has absolutely no supporting evidence (ie equivalent past examples).

    You and your numbers are too robotic. Have you no heart? Have you no soul?
    😉

    #47292
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    Swiiiinnngggg and a miss:

    Judging from the reaction of NC State players to hearing their name called during the selection show, they were as surprised as anyone to make the field, and they should have been. Little about their profile suggested they were worthy of beating out an SMU team ranked in the Top 25 as recently as Monday or a Green Bay team that dominated its league and beat Virginia in non-league play but stumbled in the Horizon semifinals.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/three-things-the-selection-committee-got-right-and-three-it-got-wrong-021348203.html

    Super-shallow analysis on bogus criteria. Absolutely no one cares about the AP Top 25 and dominating the Horizon hardly qualifies for serious consideration.

    #47294
    JeremyH
    Participant

    Cut that Yahoo! editor some slack, he blogs for Yahoo!, ergo he has two other jobs and did this article really quick. And of course they were surprised, it was a “photo finish”.

    #47298
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    Cut that Yahoo! editor some slack

    You should know that I don’t suffer fools gladly. Everyone here has a real job and less time to write than he does.

    I don’t argue with his take on NC State. It’s the ridiculous teams that he wants to replace them with that earns my contempt.

    #47301
    PackFamily
    Participant

    The analysis is interesting and enjoyable, but i am just thrilled to finally have our team on the right side of the discussion. So much of our energy as State fans is focused about why things didn’t go our way (not a criticism; just saying we’ve had some bad breaks and tough losses).

    #47303
    JeremyH
    Participant

    Lunardi is predicting a loss to Xavier. I think he wants us out…

    #47304
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    That would let him justify his selections over the Committee’s.

    #47305
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Come tourney time, I turn to similar handicapping tools that I use in horseracing.

    Trainers (Gottfried) and Jockeys ( Warren ), figure prominently in the big race types.

    Linardi doesn’t ‘cap ponies to my knowledge.

    #47306
    PackerInRussia
    Participant

    ^Is that your way of saying you also wish the Mustangs had made it in?

    #47307
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Mustangs don’t belong on the track, Roosky.

    #47308
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    If SMU had gotten in, the selection committee would owe Seth Greenberg an apology.

    ^Indeed.

    Go to any website and there are comments ripping the committee for picking State ahead of SMU. If you want to pick out State’s flaws and make a case against them that’s fine, but almost no one makes a coherent case for SMU other than “but theys wuz ranked!!!111′.

    It is pretty easy to see why SMU was excluded even if you only follow trends and not so much numbers. “Bad schedule + bad (or any) early loss in conference tourney + any other bad losses = exclusion”.

    People need things to b*tch about though, so there’s that 🙂

    #47309
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    nope…

    perhaps…what Mr. Dog is suggesting is the some where in the Committee’s analysis is a

    “EPI” rankings…

    that’s the “Eyeballs Power Index”…
    a composite number that ranks each team by historical data regarding the following factors…

    1. Name Recognition of School.
    2. Name Recognition of Coach.
    3. Name Recognition of Key Players.
    4. The Relative Size of the Fanbase.
    5. The EPI of the school’s top three rivals.
    6. The EPI of the school’s conference.
    7. The WOW factor surrounding this season’s team.

    The EPI ranks schools by
    1. the SIZE of the potential TV audience, social media traffic, pre-game and post game media hits
    and…
    2. the “built-in” CONTENT available to connect, promote and generate “traffic”, “activity” and “audiences”…

    Bottom line here is … The Committee instructions were clear… when everything else is too close to call…
    pick the Team with best “EPI”.

    ———–

    A whole lot of people might be watching our game Tuesday… just to see who’s right and who’s wrong…
    but the bottom line is that either is gold to everybody on the money end of things…
    and that’s what the higher EPI guarantees…

    ———–

    The Legacy of Coach Valvano is that there will always be an NCSTATE “basketball” story to tell/sell…

    Compare our EPI to SMU, GB, FSU bball… and who ever else didn’t get in… that answer is pretty clear.

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    #47311
    YogiNC
    Participant

    People need things to b*tch about though, so there’s that

    +100

    Smarter than the average bear

    #47312
    PackerInRussia
    Participant

    I think we all need to take a moment and be thankful for Herb Sendek. If it weren’t for the tireless efforts of Herb and guys like him, the tourney field might never have been expanded and we’d be having a very different conversation. Thanks, buddy.

    #47313
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    I do think there was some version of “eye test” since the resumes were so similar. Anyone who saw FSU’s two late-season chances (home vs. Cuse, UVA in ACCT) had to notice how flat they fell. As a contrast, State won at Pitt, beat Cuse at the ACCT, and showed respectably against Duke.

    #47315
    MP
    Participant

    Awesome post!

    The team that appears to slightly deserve a spot over State is Cal. And if that is the case, it could have simply come down to the PAC already having 6 teams in and the ACC only 5 teams prior to including either State or FSU. Go Wellman!

    #47316
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Yep, both Bill and Beej.

    Those other horses that are headed to allowance races, mighta’ looked a bit to washy for the old railbirds.

    #47317
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    … it might be worth mentioning.. the Mustangs Story line… was solid…

    Old Hall of Fame Coach… one last hurrah….
    resurrects program from oblivion…
    Can he do it again…

    But that’s just One factor in the “EPI”…

    How many TA&M, or Texas fans gonna watch One SMU basketball game…
    ( compared to how many Dookies and TarHoles will watch most ALL of our games )…

    and run their mouths about it for two days before and one whole day afterwards ???

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    #47318
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    The team that appears to slightly deserve a spot over State is Cal.

    ^Perhaps, but Cal really faltered late, losing 4 of their last 5. Losing in their Pac 12 quarters to Colorado appeared to be the coup de grace.

    #47320
    JeremyH
    Participant
    #47321
    wilmwolf80
    Participant

    The fact that SMU was ranked prior to the last week of the season means nil. They shut the bed their last three games. Don’t do that, and they are in, and we are having a discussion about our seeding in the NIT. Their losses dropped them out of at-large status and back into the group of teams vying for the last spot. At that point, all the relevant stats about who they played, etc. come in to play. If they win a few games in their tourney, then their strength of schedule becomes moot. As opposed to falling into that group, we played our way up to it, and obviously projected a more attractive option to the committee members. Had we been left out, I’d be sitting here writing that we should have won more games when it mattered. That’s just how it goes. This is not some unprecedented event like the pundits would have us believe, the committee has made it clear over the years that if you want in, play a decent schedule.

    #47322
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    How’s about State played a top 21 schedule and that’s the real deal.

    I brought horses into it
    ’cause Lunardi has the X/State game picked wrong.
    That’s all…

    He is doubling down out of a loss. Bad play.

    #47323
    JeremyH
    Participant

    looks like we just had a presser today too:
    http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/video/13487652/

    #47325
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Nice pull Jeremy.
    If one listens, Warren is indeed the jockey to go with.

    More subtle was the question related to Dayton/X.

    Haven’t brought it up in here, but it’s been talked about ‘tween family and closest friends.

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