State Screwed at Syracuse

13-14 Basketball61

State earned that shit tonight, but instead, wildly incompetent ACC officiating takes over and #1 Syracuse was handed the opportunity to win.

The ACC — old and new — has no shame. The irony is it actually hurts itself by screwing over its bubble teams.

About JackWolf

I'm an unapologetic NC State fan but also consider myself a rational one. Hit me up on twitter if you want to talk @NCStateFootball

13-14 Basketball

Home › Forums › State Screwed at Syracuse

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  • 02/16/2014 at 8:19 AM #41194
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    ^I saw enough to know we turned it over too much coming down the stretch, took some quick and bad shots, and didn’t get it into the hands of our best scoring option. And the zebras didn’t impact that at all, smartass. As for the continuation call, I’m with cowdog. Thought it was the right call when it was made. Thought it was the right call after seeing the replay. Plenty of questionable calls in the game on both sides. That wasn’t one.

    02/16/2014 at 8:40 AM #41198
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I saw enough to know we turned it over too much coming down the stretch, took some quick and bad shots, and didn’t get it into the hands of our best scoring option. And the zebras didn’t impact that at all, smartass. As for the continuation call, I’m with cowdog. Thought it was the right call when it was made. Thought it was the right call after seeing the replay. Plenty of questionable calls in the game on both sides. That wasn’t one.

    When one team has to make shots and the other only has to make FTs there is no wonder we had more turnovers. Again, you seem to think we have to play a perfect game in order to get a fair shake from the refs. Battered wife syndrome I guess.

    You may think the last call was good but both Jules and Corch disagree with you. But hey what do they know.

    And how many “questionable calls went against SU? I mean they were only called for 5 fouls for the entire second half. How many of those could have possibly been bad?

    They shot 19 FTs to our 4 in the second half. Oh yeah no bias there.

    02/16/2014 at 8:49 AM #41200
    hpack
    Participant

    When I looked at the schedule at the beginning of the year, I knew that NCSU would not be ALLOWED to win games @U*C and at Duke. The issue was moot as we did not deserve to win either of those games.

    I wondered whether we would be allowed to win at SU…Now I know. Phantom call after phantom call in the 2h with SU on the ropes. The trip with no contact. No on-ball contact so refs start creating off ball fouls? The and-1 TJW play at the end of the game.

    Yes, we should have been able to possess the ball for 15 seconds but…

    Challenge to all deniers: Find 1 game where questionable call results in PACK win rather than PACK loss against top team.

    02/16/2014 at 8:57 AM #41201
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    Gott also thinks it was a bad call:

    “That was a made basket to put us up three with T.J. going on the line to go up four,” Gottfried said. “For them to wipe that away, I’ve already watched the tape and I don’t like that call. That changed things.”

    But this quote from Turner really sticks out for some reason:

    “I started to think we were about to get out of here with a win,” said Turner, whose free throws with 62 seconds left gave N.C. State a 55-53 lead.

    Check that thinking at the door, young man. Refs weren’t about to let us get this one.

    02/16/2014 at 9:11 AM #41203
    redisgood
    Participant

    Even Mike Decourcy said he went back and watched the replay, and agrees the refs blew it on the TJ foul. I guarantee that was hard for him to admit.

    02/16/2014 at 9:12 AM #41204
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Rick, where in any post did I say there weren’t bad calls, or that Syracuse didn’t benefit from questionable calls? At the end of the day, I just don’t blame officials for game outcomes, whether it’s collectively or one pivotal play. If you want to analyze every call or non-call for each game or season and argue that NCSU disproportionately gets hosed, have at it.

    THat’s what fans do. Blame officials. I get it. Players, at least the good ones, might bitch but they ultimately look inwardly and ask what they could’ve done to play better. Great coaches might moan and grown, but they, too, ask what they could’ve done to better prepare and coach their team. Lots of opinions about the continuation play with Warren. That’s cool. Having watched the entire replay now, Syracuse got the benefit of a few ticky tack fouls. We got a few. Maybe they benefitted disproportionately. I can see that argument. But it still doesn’t change the fact that we committed unforced errors, turned it over down the stretch, and didn’t get into Warren’s hands enough. I believe Warren was something like 7 or 12 or 8 or 12 in the second half. IN the last 5 minutes, I think he got two shots, one of which was the desperation heave. The other was off an ill advised pass from Lewis that caromed off the backboard.

    And yes, you do have to play a nearly perfect game to beat the #1 team in the country on their home floor, regardless of good, average, or bad zebras in the building.

    02/16/2014 at 9:31 AM #41208
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Really well coached teams tend to get the benefit of calls. Best analogy I can think of is Greg Maddux. If you’re around the strike zone a lot, the plate gets bigger. Same concept with basketball. The Dukes, UNC’s, Syracuse’s might appear to get the benefit of more calls. Maybe they do. Just ain’t no conspiracy. The plate is a bit bigger for them, that’s all folks.

    02/16/2014 at 9:40 AM #41211
    redwolf87
    Participant

    “Challenge to all deniers: Find 1 game where questionable call results in PACK win rather than PACK loss against top team.
    .”

    The last thing I can remotely remember (or at least one that sticks out) was many years ago when Wake was pretty good and CJ Harrison hit a three to either tie or beat them, and replays showed his foot was on the line. Keith Olbermann mercilessly berated us on ESPN all night, even when they had moved on to other games (“and he hits a three–well, five points if you’re at NC State”). And that was a long time ago. Don’t remember anything going our way against unx or Duke in the last 25 years.

    02/16/2014 at 9:45 AM #41212
    Tuffy2
    Participant

    After looking back on the final play, I do see that Cat was not fouled. I will end all debate on the so-called bad calls by the officials by stating that if we just hit 2 free throws in the first half the upset would be in the books. I believe we went 3 for 10. To win a game like this a team must put all the pieces together and free throw shooting is one of those pieces.

    02/16/2014 at 9:48 AM #41214
    JohnGalt78
    Participant

    Orange is the new Blue.

    02/16/2014 at 11:11 AM #41217
    RedReid
    Participant

    We knew that this would be a tough game to win coming into it. We just don’t need to let it beat us twice. I honestly believe we are the clear cut 6th(meaning I think ACC gets 6 teams in the NCAA)best team in the ACC and plenty of games left to prove it. Let’s hope our boys play good down the stretch and we can let the NCAA chips land as they may. I’m very proud of what our coaching staff and players have accomplished this season. Remember we were picked 10th in the preseason. I believe the best is yet to come with this team. We proved we can play with anyone last night. Beat Clemson! Go PACK!!

    02/16/2014 at 11:21 AM #41219
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    I believe we are 6th in the league as well, but we have to go out and prove it at Clemson Tuesday night. Yet another swing game.

    And there is nothing that says the Tournament Selection Committee must give the ACC 6 bids. Most agree there will be at least five from the ACC that are already in. But the 6th and any others will be judged against other bubble teams. So we gotta go out and win. And win some more. No hiccups against the middle and lower tier of the league, and a win over Pitt or UNC is a must. We’ve got nothing so far as Tennessee and FSU continue to flounder.

    02/16/2014 at 12:59 PM #41245
    Owen Good
    Participant

    Love coming in here and reading the Vichy Pack going out of its way to nobly exonerate the officiating. Like anyone else in the league is going to give us credit for that.

    Basketball is an inherently subjectively officiated sport, on the level of international soccer. The game is undeniably influenced by the calls the officials choose to make, when they choose to make them. Teams respond to the discrete situations they create. It is absolute garbage to talk about the preceding free throws N.C. State did not make when it was in a position to legitimately win despite them. It is completely dishonest to expect the Wolfpack to shoulder the entire blame for the turnover leading to Fair’s basket when they never should have been in a situation requiring that kind of an inbounds play.

    This is a league unwilling to address an obvious lack of faith in or respect for its officiating; the status quo preserves an environment where the valuable television inventory—ranked teams, with very forceful, headstrong coaches and athletics departments willing to harangue the league offices on their behalf—are favored by a subjective process. It is not sour grapes for an NC State fan, after seeing his team’s tremendous accomplishment destroyed, to call that by its proper name: Unfair.

    02/16/2014 at 1:34 PM #41257
    Rick
    Keymaster

    White sis,
    Explain the nineteen to four free throw disparity in the second half since youth .com to think officiating had nothing to do with it.

    This was just another of the acc screw jobs we have been getting for years. You can nIt pick every mistake the players make but the reality is they did what they had to to win but the refs would not let them and all of the exonerations from the self loathing ref lovers will not erase that.

    Unfortunately though the incompetent refs did steak it.

    Acc sucks

    02/16/2014 at 1:59 PM #41263
    Pack78
    Participant

    This is a league unwilling to address an obvious lack of faith in or respect for its officiating; the status quo preserves an environment where the valuable television inventory—ranked teams, with very forceful, headstrong coaches and athletics departments willing to harangue the league offices on their behalf—are favored by a subjective process. It is not sour grapes for an NC State fan, after seeing his team’s tremendous accomplishment destroyed, to call that by its proper name: Unfair.

    I remember when Fred Barakat was the ACC supervisor of officials decades ago…he was regularly feted on the ACC BB broadcasts back then for the ‘wonderful job’ he did. We all felt like we were getting screwed then, and its magnitudes worse now…

    02/16/2014 at 2:11 PM #41266
    Owen Good
    Participant

    What makes it worse is the current supervisor is the father of our career leader in home runs. I suppose we’re just getting coach’s-kid style tough love from Greensboro.

    02/16/2014 at 2:14 PM #41269
    eas
    Participant

    Let me start by saying the refs were horrid and the I agree we got screwed more so than not. If you watched the game is was just amazing to see the number of fouls we were called for vs SU’s lack of fouls. I’m still pissed about the bias that is clearly in play to keep SU in the #1 ranking so the ACC can keep their “power” play in place. It is just so obvious….

    All that a side I have to say one FACT that could have been the game changer long before the screw jobs. Even with the ref bias and lack of fouls we did NOT hit our Free throws. Every freaking game we absolutely suck at FT’s! It’s like we have 5 “Shaq’s” shooting free throws every game. How in the world can we not improve this statistic? Do our guys practice free throws and if they do how long do they shoot? Even with the Swofford misfits calling the game we could have won on FT’s alone. As is the case with many other games!!!!! Why can’t we shoot? Why please tell me why????

    I am proud of our team and they played well even with the mistakes. No complaining other FT’s from me towards the players. Great job Wolfpack.

    Two questions I can’t get out of my head for Gott. Why did you continue to leave CAT in for soooo long when he was killing us? Yes I know WBS had his ankles broke on that one drive by SU but overall WBS did just fine in zone. Mistake after mistake in a crucial game and Cat stays in far too long. Second, and maybe it’s just me, why did BSW run the baseline play at the end? Don’t we have a taller guy that can do that and still keep a taller ball handler in play? Our end of the game plays or lack there of are killing us along with FT’s. Under 2 minutes in every game we do not have organization or plays to lean on. Over and over we see our players try to beat the press, trap or play clock with the dribble. I thought beating those odds with the pass was basketball fundamentals 101?

    Still we got the screw job but we have choked a lot during crucial moments of games.

    02/16/2014 at 2:22 PM #41272
    vtpackfan
    Participant

    Advantage vs. Disadvantage. Ask yourself what was going to happen-then what happened-and finally did someone gain an advantage by breaking the rules. That is the name of it. Only the newbie refs and bad ones have their name mentioned with “but it was in the book”. The good ones pass the eye test of advantage/disadvantage and their work in the moment stands up to moment.

    Stuart better be a newbie. Not the first time he has sucked awful. In fact one poster here that is trolling on (as usual) mentioned him by name earlier this year as looking “lost on the baseline”.

    Anybody wonder why Stuart was so far behind the play when there is a ref always assigned to anticipate the home run pass. Even a good two man crew can handle that. Stuart: just plain lost on any line.

    02/16/2014 at 2:23 PM #41273
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Rick, I know it’s pointless but I’ll make it as plain as I can for ya since you just don’t get it. Officiating is bad across the landscape of college basketball, possibly worse than the level of play but I’m not sure. You watch enough, you know this. You control what you can. Of course officiating impacts games. As does every other facet of play. But I reject the assertion by you or anyone else that there is a grand conspiracy to screw poor little NC State, in this game or systematically. Syracuse played a lousy game by their standards, we played good enough to win but far from perfect, and we lost. Some calls that might have gone in our favor didn’t. For my observations about why some teams supposedly get more calls than others, see my comments above. And by all means, whine on.

    02/16/2014 at 2:31 PM #41276
    Owen Good
    Participant
    eas wrote:

    ”All that a side I have to say one FACT that could have been the game changer long before the screw jobs. Even with the ref bias and lack of fouls we did NOT hit our Free throws.”

    This is completely irrelevant. N.C. State was in a position to win this game despite every missed shot—-free throw or otherwise—-before Mike Stuart destroyed the game by choosing the strictest and most subjective call on the foul of TJ Warren at the time he did. That forced N.C. State to put the ball back in play, forced the potential for a turnover with a single basket capable of taking the lead, denied the Wolfpack a three or potentially four point advantage going into Syracuse’s final possession with the clock turned off.

    The sins, shortcomings or failures of the team up to the point Cooney fouled Warren are utterly and 100 percent meaningless. State was in a position to win, passively, despite all of that. This game was determined by the play following it and the play following it was dictated by the circumstances set in motion by Mike Stuart’s absolutely horrible ruling.

    We can woulda-shoulda the whole god damn season preceding this. Maybe not losing to NC Central would have had some effect on it, like Saturn’s mass has a still measurable effect on Earth’s orbit. I deal in the most direct and proximate cause for the outcome: The officiating and the officiating alone cost North Carolina State University this game, a victory against an undefeated number one ranked team on its home court.

    02/16/2014 at 2:57 PM #41286
    MARinRVA
    Participant

    We were having a hard time deciding whether this team was getting better. It’s hard to compare a streak of wins against the middle and bottom of the conference against some humiliating losses to the top of the conference.

    But today we know the answer to this question. This team

      is

    getting better. And just in time! Clemson, Pitt and Carolina will be difficult to beat. But we can still have the chance to pick up some quality wins, and with a deep run in the tourney we might just get into the field of 64.

    I was really proud of our kids. I thought Gott coached a good game. I don’t know why Boeheim picked this year to sell his soul to the devil, but Ol’ Scratch really has his back! Can’t do anything about that. Onward and upward.

    02/16/2014 at 2:58 PM #41287
    StateFans
    Keymaster

    I have always DESPISED the arguments that ‘if we would’ve done something better’ then we would have won.

    We shouldn’t HAVE to do things better. We did more than enough to win.

    02/16/2014 at 3:13 PM #41290
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    There seems to be the perception that teams win because they receive preferential treatment. Maybe they receive preferential treatment because they win.

    Maybe the old adage is true, winning solves everything.

    I don’t think that pointing to free throw discrepancy is necessarily the be all end all measure of whether a game was called fairly. Fair and even aren’t the same.

    02/16/2014 at 3:29 PM #41295
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    ^Statefans, it’s the same counterfactual logic employed by the zebra bashers. “If they would’ve made this call, not made these calls”.. yada…yada… My argument isn’t that officiating isn’t bad or inconsistent. I think the on-the-floor call on Warren was the correct one, as was the charge that Barber drew under a minute. Seemed like a slightly late whistle on the Warren foul and a bit of indecisiveness on the ref’s part, but the foul was on the floor. We didn’t get to the line because we didn’t really attack the zone and get to the rim in the second half. Check the shot chart. We settled for jumpshots. And we’re not a great defensive team. We always get a lot of ticky tack stuff called. Last night was not unusual in that regard.

    02/16/2014 at 5:12 PM #41324
    Owen Good
    Participant

    Again, nothing you describe justifies the selectively enforced conclusion of the game. Yes, if State attacked the zone more and shot brilliantly from the free-throw line, and could somehow blend those two threads of the space-time continuum with the one in which State led 55-54 and had possession, then we’d be talking about 6 or an 8 point victory. The fact remains N.C. State led 55 to 54. TJ Warren took a lob pass and broke unmolested to the goal. TJ Warren was fouled, deliberately, to be prevented from scoring. TJ Warren scored instead but the basket was waved off because Mike Stuart decided to call that foul on the floor and not in the act of shooting. That forced N.C. State to make numerous extra plays to re-certify the victory it had already earned—inbound the ball, maintain possession, hit two additional free throws for a three point lead in lieu of one for a four-point advantage, and then defend a game-tying try from Syracuse. The fair officiating of the foul on TJ Warren would have nullified every disadvantage handed to the Wolfpack in the final possession.

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