Parting Thoughts on the Syracuse “Win”

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It still hurts. I’m still mad. Am I an NC State Homer? Yes, and unabashedly so. Did the overall better team win on Saturday? Yes. Did the better team on Saturday win? Emphatically, no. NC State came with a recipe to win that game and for all accounts, we should have won that game. Would’ve, should’ve, could’ve. Chalk this up to another in a long history of NC State Shit.

In my commute in this morning, I was listening to Mark & Mike on 620. And the standard line is this: NC State had two costly turnovers to end the game that set Syracuse up for the win. NC State could have won that game despite the bad call. Is that true? Sure. Unnecessary passes that resulted in turnovers did cause the Wolfpack to lose that game. What isn’t in question is that a bad call was made on the TJ Warren and one that was called a foul on the floor. Regardless of the rule that, on a breakaway run, the defensive player cannot simply foul from behind or else that is the very definition of a flagrant foul. We should’ve had shots plus the ball, or at the very least, an and one opportunity to put us up by at least 3, if not 4 if we convert the free throw.

The line from the radio guys plus sports prognosticators around the local sports world is that Syracuse made plays to win the game and NC State squandered its opportunity. Oh the Pack shouldn’t have had those two late turnovers. Oh the Pack should’ve sunk more free throws during the course of the game. If I’m reading that correctly, unless we have 0 turnovers and a 100% rate on free throw conversions, then we have no room to bitch about officiating. I get that sports radio and sports journalism is about attracting listeners and readers. Do I expect folks who are paid for an opinion to be 100% fair and open? No. Just as I don’t expect to get a fair stance from Rachel Maddow on MSNBC or Sean Hannity on Fox News. What drives listeners on radio / TV and clicks on the Internet is divisiveness. It makes for good radio. It makes for good TV. Otherwise, it would be boring. I get that driving a wedge and salting the wounds of Pack fans makes for good broadcasts (and other teams too, I’m not saying “oh woe is me”).

But that line is so dishonest and so disingenuous. Yes, NC State could have won despite the bad call. But NC State did enough to win that game and we, or any other team, should not be expected to win despite horrid officiating. If that were the case then what makes NCAA basketball any different than “professional” wrestling? The margin for error for a Pack team on the road against the #1 team in the nation is 0. Add a critical late bad call and the odds certainly stack up against you.

Without a horrible call, the likelihood that the Pack travels to Syracuse (the day of, mind you) and takes a win from the #1 team in the country is all but settled. Could we have scored 100 points? Sure we could have. Could we have operated with no turnovers over the course of the game? Sure, I suppose it’s possible. Could we have hit every single free throw? I guess. Did we need to? Hell no. And that’s why I remain salty and angry.

I wouldn’t be penning this article had TJ Warren gotten the appropriate call and we went up 4 points and still produced a series of turnovers that led to an eventual loss. The officiating was still suspect (how we were in the double bonus and they weren’t even in a single bonus to end that game is still beyond me) but I wouldn’t be as mad. Had we been blown out by 20 like I suspected deep down, I would have been mad for a bevy of other reasons but not directed towards Clogherty’s Crew.

This doesn’t help the NCAA. It doesn’t help the ACC. The hierarchy in “official dominated” sports is basketball -> football -> baseball. Basketball, both professional and collegiate, is becoming more difficult to watch based on the subjectiveness of officiating. The list of football teams being robbed of a win is vastly shorter (The Russell Wilson walk off interception comes to mind during the replacement referee period in the NFL). The list of baseball teams being robbed of a win can likely be counted on a single hand or two.

And it seems NC State is making a bit of history with this. That’s why “NC State Shit” is such a popular meme. Go back to the 1989 regional semifinals where a pivotal travel was called on Chris Corchiani is now dubbed “the worst call in NCAA History”. Mind you that the “travel” should’ve been a Chris Corchiani and-one which would have fouled out Alonzo Mourning (fast forward to the 6:00 mark).

I get that hearing NC State fans bitch about officiating is tired. But instead of directing jokes towards salty Pack fans, why isn’t there more of a dialog on the fact that the referee made the wrong call which resulted in a Syracuse win. (Note I’m not saying it prevented a Wolfpack win, but it most certainly and unarguably resulted in the Syracuse win although the Orange may have been able to win with the correct call). That’s what I don’t get from the local media. The line is always “well NC State should’ve have made that second free throw at the 18:42 mark of the first half”.

The wrong call was made. NC State fans will bitch about it and continue to bitch about it. And guess what? We have the full right to do so.

What was the correct call on TJ Warren's breakaway attempt at Syracuse?

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Home › Forums › Parting Thoughts on the Syracuse “Win”

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  • 02/17/2014 at 8:21 PM #41452
    MrPlywood
    Participant

    One more then I’m done… looks to me like the ref is also out of position. He assumed a lot on his call. This pic is before he’s blown his whistle…

    out of position

    OK I lied, here’s another shot of the smiling ref… I might make that dude my avatar.

    smiling ref

    02/17/2014 at 8:25 PM #41454
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    Again, I do not see a shove. I’ve seen the play about 30 times now, and see the photos. The Cuse player caught up to Warren and tried to make a play on the ball. That what I, and many others, saw. And remember these calls are made in real time. Without a clear “shove” or “push”, you just aren’t going to see that call. They are all judgment calls made in the heat of action. Nobody is perfect but the fact that even Pack fans debate the play shows it wasn’t so black and white as some proclaim.

    02/17/2014 at 8:36 PM #41456
    archdalepack
    Participant

    Reverse the teams or replace UNX for State. Does the player get continuation? That is the frustration for State fans.

    02/17/2014 at 9:08 PM #41466
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Ii still buy Stuart’s call.

    Now ..if ya wanna talk ticky tack or smiles… meh, neither changed the outcome.

    Hey…whose game did my boy Sean H work Saturday?

    What a bitch. Right. again.

    02/17/2014 at 9:25 PM #41468
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    To be fair to Hull, I had the same WTF look on my face when WBS gave up the middle of the court to pass into the trap with Lee.

    02/17/2014 at 9:33 PM #41470
    ncsu1987
    Participant

    So here’s my beef with the call, and subsequent analysis. If your end-all, be-all is the rule book, then yes, technically Stuart made the right call, as far as I know. My problem is, it’s almost NEVER called this way. Why pick that time, that situation to inexplicably rediscover your rule book?

    Does anybody on this board doubt that any Orange player gets that call, situations reversed? Does anybody have the slightest doubt that any player in a blue uniform gets this call home or away? If you disagree with this, consider this question: can you imagine any other situation where an all-ACC player, leading the league in scoring, doesn’t get this call?

    Ok, so maybe you still think I’m crazy. Still think I’m in fringe territory. If so, pick up your precious rule book and answer me this: where the **** was your rule book when the WF guard took his three steps earlier this year? You can’t have it both ways.

    EDIT: Oh, and I agree with btown from page 2 – we should stop saying the guys should have made this play or that play. When you’re unranked and hungry, playing #1 at home, the margin is near zero. KW and TJ MADE the play you’re asking for.

    02/17/2014 at 9:56 PM #41471
    wufpup76
    Keymaster

    “My problem is, it’s almost NEVER called this way. Why pick that time, that situation to inexplicably rediscover your rule book?”

    ^Justin Gainey with the ball, up two at Duke with under a minute to play. No pressure on the ball. Gainey is stationary and dribbling while setting the play. ‘Whistle!!!’ Call: carrying the ball.

    No other such call made during the game, and more than likely no warning. The question is more than valid – why pick that time, that situation to inexplicably rediscover the rule book?

    Yeah, I know … I live with tin-foil hats and black helicopters.

    Tbh, I didn’t think much of the call when watching. I thought it could’ve went either way – on the floor OR and-1. I thought technically the call was correct. Others making arguments for the and-1 call have valid points though. My tin-foil hat suggests that Warren would’ve been called for an intentional foul plus the basket would’ve counted were the roles reversed. After all, we’ve never had any back-breaking calls go against us before (sarcasm, for those who for whatever reason may not be aware).

    02/17/2014 at 11:09 PM #41472
    Wolfpack70
    Participant

    There are some really good discussion in these posts. There is also some history I have really tried hard to forget. As we all know, in a game like this, there are always plays that could have been better executed that would have led to another basket for the Pack or one basket less for Syracuse. All coaches and players should focus on the aspects of the game that can be controlled by the play of the players. Don’t make the bad pass, block out, play good defensive away from the ball. The single easiest thing to do is shoot a decent percentage from the line. I should have looked but the pack shot 50%? If they make just 2 more they are at 64%- very achievable. It is called a free throw and it is attempted from the charity stripe. No one is guarding the shot and a players is in full control. It should not be hard for accomplished players to shoot it effectively. I believe 3 or 4 more points going into the last minute yields a win.

    02/18/2014 at 7:15 AM #41474
    wolfonthehill
    Participant

    Know what the shame of it is? This crew called a great first half. The wife (a unc-ch fan) and I both commented on it – they let them play, we got to play interior defense, and we played them even.

    The problem is that, even after that half, I told her that the 2nd half would be called differently – which is exactly the unforgivable mistake that officials can’t make… but do far too often. It went from a classic Big East-style match… contact allowed at both ends… to a game where one team was not allowed to play defense (double bonus for ‘Cuse halfway into the 2nd half), while the other team finished the game with 5 total 2nd-half fouls. That disparity allowed Syracuse to get back in the game after getting down 5 points… without making baskets. The incessant parade to the free throw line, coupled with Syracuse’s ability to apply unbelievable pressure during the last minute with no risk of sending us to the line, is what decided the game.

    Yes, I’m infuriated by the one call – but I’m more pissed off because I KNEW at halftime that we would not be allowed to play defense in the 2nd half – and we weren’t. In the end, the wife agreed – she acknowledges that State is on the wrong end of baffling losses with a frequency that defies any explanation – losses that she has yet to see unc-ch witness a single time in her 21 years of pulling for them. She acknowledges that the calls directly affect the outcome of games – and she even points it out when, strangely, a game seems to be called equitably when we’re involved.

    The travesty for the league is that Saturday’s game reduced the number of NCAA entrants from the ACC by one. Without a near-miracle run, that game eliminated us from the discussion, RPI be damned. We have zero true quality wins, and a team without them just ain’t getting in. (Winning at Pitt, and at home against unc-ch would now be the hurdle we have to clear.)

    So another spring where I’m resigned to not caring. Not out of lack of support for the team, but a necessary emotional detachment out of self-preservation… because regardless of what this team does, they have had and will have success taken from them. And I just can’t watch it anymore…

    02/18/2014 at 8:18 AM #41477
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I generally stick to discussing how the game was played, or might have been played, versus called because it’s what you can control as players and coaches

    How do YOU control anything? I feel your opinion on this is intellectually dishonest. You amdit there were questionable calls but say it has no outcome on the game. You can have the last word because I am done discussing this with you.

    02/18/2014 at 8:19 AM #41478
    Rick
    Keymaster

    So, we need to make ourselves the “better” team.

    Chicken and egg scenario.

    02/18/2014 at 8:59 AM #41485
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    Rick, we were never having a discussion. You’re incapable. I learned that a long time ago. But since you insist on inaccurately characterizing what I’ve repeatedly said in plain English, and there is room for debate on this topic, I’ll say it again for about the 100th time: EVERY FACET OF GAME PLAY (INCLUDING OFFICIATING) IMPACTS GAME OUTCOMES. But 1 play is just that, 1 play. From now on, I pledge to never engage in officiating debate with Prick or anyone else. We can have a officiating topic for those with whistles up their arses, and another for folks who actually enjoy discussing game play and strategy.

    02/18/2014 at 9:09 AM #41491
    tobaccordshow
    Keymaster

    Let’s simmer down fellas.

    But I do take the side of p(Rick)? here. One call doesn’t determine a game. One call with 14 seconds left most ASSUREDLY causes an outcome to become more likely. As I said when I wrote the article, had that been the call in the first half, it probably would have been forgotten. However, it was so pivotal in its nature that it is dishonest to shrug it off as “oh it was one call”.

    02/18/2014 at 9:12 AM #41492
    Wulfpack
    Participant

    I see it as both being true. The officials did cost us that game. We won it, and it was taken away.

    However, Cat made a GREAT defensively play and we were afforded another chance to win it. Not only did we turn it over, we turned it over in the worst possible way – leading to an easy Cuse fast break lay-in.

    There is plenty of blame to go around. The officials stunk, as did we executing the late game situation. Nobody wants to talk about that. I hope Gott does because it is becoming a trend with his teams in close games – just bad late game execution.

    02/18/2014 at 9:14 AM #41493
    Wolfercoyote
    Participant

    I don’t buy into the turnovers being OUR down fall. Cuse also make two turnovers (one being a charge call) at the end – they were just bailed out.
    Count the basket by TJ and get the proper goal tending call on Lewis’ shot and we win by a margin!!!

    02/18/2014 at 11:23 AM #41503
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I am still irate about it. I am to the point of not even caring about NCSU athletics. Why bother we are not going to be allowed to win.

    I will make one more point though.
    1) Anyone who has a job knows exactly what his or her boss wants. The ACC wants marque matchups like the Duke/Syracuse game to promote the league. You cannot tell me that does not factor into all this.
    2) The head of the ACC refs has publicly made statements about watching tendencies and that Duke and UNC are known to not commit fouls. This is a fact and is on record. I am sure they have studied tendencies of Syracuse and come to the same conclusion.
    2) Would you publicly embarrass your boss by proving him wrong?

    We have a leauge that has proven it favors the top teams to the detriment of the others.

    02/18/2014 at 11:39 AM #41505
    Rick
    Keymaster
    tobaccordshow wrote:

    Let’s simmer down fellas.

    But I do take the side of p(Rick)? here. One call doesn’t determine a game. One call with 14 seconds left most ASSUREDLY causes an outcome to become more likely. As I said when I wrote the article, had that been the call in the first half, it probably would have been forgotten. However, it was so pivotal in its nature that it is dishonest to shrug it off as “oh it was one call”.

    I am pretty sure he is refering to me.

    IMO it goes far past that one call as the entire hal was questionably called but the response from the ref excusers seems to be “eh, it happens” when the whole point is that it should ot happen. It woud be one thing to believe there were not bad calls but to agree there are bad calls but to say it should not matter that we should have won anyway is mind boggling to me. We should expect a fairly called game. Not one without mistakes but one that is fair and that game was not called fairly.

    02/18/2014 at 1:09 PM #41507
    VaWolf82
    Keymaster

    I couldn’t remember the details on the “studying tendencies” and this was the only article that I could find. Does anyone remember anything else?

    “Historically, even looking back to when Dean Smith coached, UNC has just been a team that doesn’t foul that much,’’ said John Clougherty, the ACC’s head of officials.

    Years ago, we had a coach — and I won’t tell you which coach it was — say to a group of refs at an officials’ clinic that he believed that Carolina got a favorable whistle on all 50-50 plays,’’ Clougherty said. “In his mind, he justified getting the short end of the calls by saying Carolina was getting favorable treatment. But in the officials’ position, his players were slower to get to the spot, slower to get everywhere. … UNC had the better athletes, so it was easier for them to stay in front of their man, easier not to foul.”

    Clougherty also said that his officials study teams’ and players’ tendencies, so they know what to look for when it comes to fouls. And that they don’t favor anybody.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/north-carolina-basketball/post/_/id/4912/lack-of-fouls-key-for-unc

    02/18/2014 at 2:12 PM #41509
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I remember the SFN article as I wrote it.

    Head of ACC Officials Confirms UNC is a “team that doesn’t foul much”

    02/18/2014 at 5:21 PM #41525
    budfox88
    Participant

    OK, the refs suck, the league sucks, and the deck is generally stacked against the Pack. I do believe refs can control the outcome of games (and freq do in acc), whether directly (like the cuse game) or indirectly (like most confr rival losses, early foul trouble for our key players). It’s been this way for two decades. Problem is, nothing you can do about it except back yourself in a corner and force yourself to “quit watching ncsu sports”…or just accept that we will continue to get screwed by the acc power ncsu-haters (swoffass, refs et al, media blue-lovers), until the head of the snake is severed. Even then, the money backs the power teams in the power confrcs, which we are not, so once again, stacked against us. I just watch and try not to let the bs ref calls get the best of me, and focus on what we need to do to improve (30% FTs, choking in last 2 mins, missing rebounds, forcing shots, and generally looking lost and flat-footed in the clutch. We have talent, and with experience, we could be great. Gott has to build confidence, and encourage the leader(s) to emerge, work on the things that are hurting morale. Practice those effing FTs!!!!! Every effing loss we’ve had except the va blowout could have been won on FTs. I wish someone smarter than me could come up with a reasonable way to sever the head of the snake but it looks like that won’t happen any time soon. And what the hell can you do about the refs? Nothing. So, I just watch and hope that we can put a complete game together…enough beat both teams on the floor every conf game. Sanity. I hope I live long enough to see the Pack rise again, but won’t happen until K retires, Swampassfford is gone, UNC athletics is pounded in the ass by NCAA, and Cuse wins a couple of national championships.

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