Hole-mageddon Post-Game Semi-Rational Discussion

Yes, that sucked. We went into Chapel Hill, played poorly to start…then clawed our way back to a small lead with all the momentum in the world. Then we crapped the bed down the stretch on the way to a blowout loss. A B+ effort by the Pack wins that game easily…and we didn’t even come close. One high profile individual didn’t even bring his D- game, or in all probability, multiple lobes of his brain.

But this team is still on track to go 11-7 and land no worse than a 6 seed. We CAN still be a very dangerous team in the post-season. This was ONE horrible game, at an inopportune time. After all, losing to a blue (especially light blue) hurts way worse than a clunker in Winston-Salem. We can’t let it beat us in Tallahassee and Atlanta, too.

Let’s also talk about coaching. Yes, I did (and still do) criticize his re-inserting Calvin, when the Purvis/Buckets/Zo/Woo/Talibeard five were clicking on all cylinders. But I do understand that it’s a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario. We absolutely NEED Calvin in Calvinistic form, or you can spend time outdoors with your family this March. He’s essential. You can’t lose him. You need him to feel he still has the coach’s and his teammates’ trust.

And let’s remember how to be nuanced. Mark Gottfried is not primarily an in-game strategist. He certainly has his moments (he was a maestro at Clemson, when so many players were out of synch), but his strengths are primarily as a recruiter, motivator, and mentor. ALMOST NOBODY is an expert in all phases. Roy Williams is VERY similar, though with a different temperament. He also gets critized sometimes as “sucking” in-game…when really, it’s just not his BEST skill. He’s a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer. Not saying MG is THAT…but he still has plenty of ceiling, and can succeed as who he is. Saying “he’s no better than Sidney Lowe on game day” and such…that’s just nonsense. We all take things too far in the heat of the moment, but I have seen that enough that I want to nip it in the bud.

Let this also be a general plea for moderation and critical thinking. It’s ok to criticize, and point out things that annoy us. Nobody should criticize other fans for not being 100% butterflies and sunshine. But it’s silly to go overboard in the other direction, and act like our basketball program and even this season are somehow lost cause dumpster fires. They’re not. Kids, I went to NC State from 1991-95. I know a dumpster fire when I see one.

Our coaches and players need to feel the sting of this rivalry loss, but they also need to learn from what happened and be better for the experience. It’s all still right in our hands.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

12-13 Basketball Big Four Rivals Mark Gottfried

171 Responses to Hole-mageddon Post-Game Semi-Rational Discussion

  1. bsly 02/23/2013 at 11:21 PM #

    I personally cant wait to see the day that Leslie no longer plays for the pack. I know that’s harsh but that’s how I feel and I’d be willing to bet many more state fans feel the same way. Why an NBA team would want to waste a pick on him is beyond me.

  2. packattack13 02/23/2013 at 11:37 PM #

    Wow so many people on here have turned on Leslie. He’s a kid. A twenty year old kid. I can tell you I screwed up all the time at that age. He’s still figuring it out. I remember how excited most state fans were when he decided to come back. I also remember how many state fans last year found every way to talk down Howell when he got in foul trouble and made stupid mistakes. We are such a fan base that only thinks what can you do for me right now. If I would have told you from the start of gottfrieds hiring till now that we would have made a sweet sixteen run 4 McDonald all Americans leoe would be shooting around 50% and preseason player of the year, Howell would be a double double machine, woods on pace to break the nc state 3 point record, browns leading the acc in assists back to back top ten recruiting classes and contending for a first round bye in the acc tournament and practically a lock for the ncaa and to have split the season series with both duke and carolina, we all would have been thrilled. But instead we blame cj or Calvin. A kid who is 5 times more consistent then two years ago. We bash a coach who has pulled us out of the acc cellar. If duke beats both Virginia and carolina and Virginia loses one other game we could still win out and be a 3 seed in the acc. Come on guys step off the edge and tell the players some positives. We all know they read this stuff. Tell them you believe in them and they will start believing in themselves. I honestly believe if every player plays to their potential not a team in the country we can’t go twelve rounds with.

  3. ryebread 02/23/2013 at 11:38 PM #

    Maybe I watched a different game than everyone else, but this one wasn’t all that surprising. We went into UNC (which I’d argue is the toughest place for NC State to play), turned it over a bunch in the first half, went 0-15 during a critical stretch and missed about 1/2 our free throws. The only reason we were in that game was due to a massive rebounding advantage.

    We then kind of ran out of gas late. That’s not so surprising given the pace, our lack of depth and the fact that UNC was the smaller and quicker team. Typically we’re the smaller and quicker team.

    I had this one penciled in as a loss before the season even started, during the preseason hype section. No matter what, I just didn’t see us going into UNC (or Cameron) this year and winning. Those were two losses before the year. Heck, I felt like we were playing with house money today.

    The key games left on our schedule are the away ones. We have to hold court at home, but the schedule sets up favorably to do so. We’ve got to win the road ones though.

  4. Astral Rain 02/24/2013 at 12:16 AM #

    My concern with CJ is what happens if he stays? That probably costs us Randle, or we end up benching one of Purvis or Warren.

    Then again, we might not get Randle anyways- and CJ might just get it next year.

    I’m not blaming this on Gott- I am blaming this on CJ being CJ and not producing at all today. This needs to be on him.

    I’m not going to say Lowe’s players are the reason- it’s CJ. What’s wrong with Brown/Howell? They’ve done great this year. There is a depth problem, and Lewis took a while to get it, and there is a huge reliance on freshmen- there are problems.

    I do think we’re on the right direction, and 2-2 vs the Blues isn’t bad. If we do that every year I wouldn’t be angry at it.

    Next year is going to be a test for Gott- if he can make the tourney next year, I’ll be fully convinced (that’s all I expect really) that he has staying power here.

  5. sjmac11 02/24/2013 at 12:18 AM #

    These kids go to school for freaking free so excuse us when we get pissed because they act like they don’t give a damn. You will not watch any other team in this league that has kids who play with such lack of, well giving a shit. So enough with this apathetic enabling of such piss poor attitudes. It drives me bat shit crazy to watch this team! We don’t have off nights, we just have games that our players just don’t care, do not give a shit.

  6. Alpha Wolf 02/24/2013 at 1:12 AM #

    Is it me or does the background really make it difficult to read things?

    What is the background I keep reading about? All I see is white, both in Windows and on Mac and in Firefox, Safari and IE9 on a Win7 box.

    Am I missing something? (I don’t do the site design, just the tech stuff, so this is a serious question.)

  7. ncsu1987 02/24/2013 at 1:23 AM #

    ^thanks for speaking up, Alpha, thought I was losing my mind. Nicely readable font on white bg is all I ever see.

  8. wolfonthehill 02/24/2013 at 7:30 AM #

    DrWuffette – if you’re still around…

    “The rest of the team didn’t help him”?????

    Four other starters.
    Three had double-doubles.
    One hit five 3’s, on >40% shooting.
    Combined for 55% eFG.

    That should win games… and would, with the 5th starter at least not actively HURTING.

    This one’s on Calvin. Period. And he better realize that it’s not just a bad game or bad luck. It’s decisions and it’s effort… and he can control those things. He simply chooses not to, out of selfishness.

    I believe that he’s a cancer that’s ripping this team apart. The post-game comments from Wood are devastating – “I’m not allowed to say” what’s wrong? Holy shit…

  9. Wulfpack 02/24/2013 at 7:49 AM #

    It is becoming a season of lost opportunities. The way I see it is all we have left to play for in the regular season is seeding – both ACC tourney seeding as well as the NCAAs. Likely a 4 or 5 seed in the ACC tourney. A 4 gets us a first round bye. UVA currently sits ahead of us for the four, has the tie breaker with the head to head win, and has GT at home today. So it could effectively be a two game lead after today. UVA still has Duke left and also Maryland, so it will be close. As for the NCAAs, hoping for a 6 if we can finish strong. That would match us up with an 11 . I just hope the team can move past these internal issues and finish strong. If not this season will go down as a lost opportunity, considering the elite talent on the roster.

  10. Rick 02/24/2013 at 8:11 AM #

    Sounds like I should be glad I missed it.

    In CJ’s freshmen year I did not like him. He played selfishly and did not play in the team environment. Last year he bought in and became one of my favorite players but something is off this year. I find myself thinking about the freshman CJ not the sophomore one. I have no idea what it is but he seems to have regressed and is dragging the team down like a boat anchor.

    This has been a mildly disappointing season but I am not ready to toss Gott like chop.

  11. motorhead 02/24/2013 at 8:13 AM #

    It was a year ago today that we lost in OT to Clemson. Hopefully we can have a similar improvement this year. I really thought we had something going against FSU.

  12. graywolf 02/24/2013 at 8:17 AM #

    We have proven to be a very unreliable team on the road. This philosophy does not bode well for the ACC nor NCAA tournament. We really miss Johnson and Painter too.

  13. EdMar 02/24/2013 at 8:21 AM #

    Alpha and ncsu 1987,

    I think the problem here is that like a lot of other Pack fans they “see and analyze” a bit too much.

  14. DrWuffette1day 02/24/2013 at 9:16 AM #

    There’s nothing wrong with seeing and analyzing if it’s based on performance.

    Lifelong- I agree completely. These are kids and they are a huge “x” factor. Many, many adults act worse in recreational league play. However, they need to keep the pettiness in the locker room. These are just basic athletic team norms.

    The point I did not make well is that many on this board are jumping on the obvious. There may be underlying reasons why the obvious is sticking out like a sore thumb. That seemed to be the case based on the yesterday’s Wolfpack passing and ball distribution performance. I’m sorry but I wouldn’t be too keen to run down the court either if I knew my teammates were not going to put me in position to achieve success.

    As much as some didn’t want to see him out there, it appeared he didn’t either and I don’t blame him. Thanks for passing me the ball when I’m guarded by 3 guys hacking my arms. We are lucky he only had 6 turnovers.

    He’s a good kid with unrealistic fan expectations glued to him and NO help from his teammates either intentionally or unintentionally. If that’s the way the team plays, then the best #4 in the world couldn’t help this team.

    If the kid apologized at halftime (wasn’t completely his fault), he is feeling a lot of peer pressure, being mature and addressing the social environment, and trying to be a team player. He’s trying to work within the framework, which isn’t being cooperative.

    These are good kids and I do like this team a lot. I just wish they would man up and act like team players not prima donnas. I question whether they want to win. I think they they just want to achieve their own individual goals/highlight reel and not be totally embarrassed about a loss (keeping the score somewhat close, don’t embarrass the coach, and show potential). This in a nutshell is the Lowe culture.

    I’m just going to chalk it up to a bad day but I hate seeing negative in-game behavior patterns.

  15. Pack1998 02/24/2013 at 9:21 AM #

    Rationally — didn’t this team finish last in the ACC 2 years ago.

    It takes time.

    I like our chances in March, especially in the NCAA.

    I have no problem with Gott’s coaching style – it will be hugely successful over time once he loads up his players.

    Regarding Leslie – he is great, just didn’t play well yesterday — it happens. He has won games for us.

    Last thought — I like Purvis and Warren on the floor at the same time, alot.

  16. rtpack24 02/24/2013 at 9:24 AM #

    I thought Gott coached a good game yesterday with the exception of putting CJ back in the game, he was as bad as I have ever seen him. I agree that Gott can not afford to “lose” him. When he put him back in and CJ goes jogging down the court the second possession after he goes in, I would have yanked him again. It is still only Feb. and a lot can happen between now and March.

  17. Pack1998 02/24/2013 at 9:26 AM #

    BTW – I think UNC will be very, very good next year.

    And the positive thing . . . as opposed to years past . . . we’ll have the horses to run with them, year in and year out.

  18. Wulfpack 02/24/2013 at 9:41 AM #

    We are going to have the horses to run with them next year, without Wood, Lo, Howell and Leslie? I suppose it depends on who UNC loses. They likely won’t lose much, have another solid class coming in, and their key guys have a year to improve. We shall see.

    It is a choice Gott had (and still has) to make. If Leslie does not improve his attitude and play on the floor, does he risk losing the team at the expense of one guy? Some are saying we won’t go anywhere without him. Perhaps. I also know we aren’t going anywhere if his antics keep up. So Gott does indeed have a choice to make. This is his toughest test yet.

  19. triadwolf 02/24/2013 at 9:47 AM #

    “Wow so many people on here have turned on Leslie.”

    I haven’t turned; I’ve been on him all season. His poor decision making is the primary cause for at least three of our loses, including UNC. Even when he’s scored 20, he usually still gave the other team 10. The “kid” is a junior and one of our most experienced players; his decisions Have To be better. When he was in the game yesterday we were playing 4 on 5 at both ends of the floor (at times 4 on 6). If I hadn’t been watching him all season I’d question whether or not it was intentional (re: Eight Men Out).

    Yeah, other guys had some bonehead plays, but when one of your options is essentially eliminated you end up forcing things to counteract that.

    He is talented, but is undersized, not physical, has a barely serviceable jump shot, is all over the place on foul shots, leads our team in TO’s, has consistently demonstrated poor shot selection, and is a poor rebounder. Even with all that he is unstoppable about 10-15% of the time. But, is the upside worth the downside? Our lack of front court depth may be the only thing that has Gott answering yes to that question.

  20. WolfTrack 02/24/2013 at 10:53 AM #

    Gott has historically used a short bench, but I seriously have to wonder how different some of our games would be if we didn’t have a half-dozen transfers the last couple years.

  21. choppack1 02/24/2013 at 11:00 AM #

    Of course you do. The “good” news is that he doesn’t employ a d that uses lots of pressure or expends much energy… so you don’t need a lot of bodies to play that style… just a lack of injuries.

    And for the record, I don’t have a problem with the game plan we saw yesterday… avoid stupid fouls, rebound, and protect the ball.

    We lost because of stupid turnovers yesterday.

  22. TheCOWDOG 02/24/2013 at 11:49 AM #

    Doc Muffette, we gotta talk about the principles of the UCLA high post sometime.

    What I saw in the first half looked pretty much consistant in design from the guards and wings on where Leslie should receive the ball.

    What happened, and is a theme against team D, is where the ball went next from the low block. It stayed into the teeth of the collapse.

    That 4 is asked to do 2 things in the high post O with the rock.

    1. Go now on single coverage.
    2. Kick it back to the passer on the wing, or the flasher to the post.

    When that doesn’t happen as consistently as it does not, it’s frustrating as hell to the Woods and Browns. Hell it’s got to be frustrating to Howell, too. He does have a nice little jumper from the FT line after all.

  23. vtpackfan 02/24/2013 at 12:01 PM #

    Cow-
    I’ve never seen CJ pass the ball to Wood once in the nearly three years they been on the court.

    I’ve never seen CJ rotate on defense when it’s Woods man driving in (and we all know CJ would rather move in for another flashy goaltend over having to box out). Starting to see any trend?That’s the “what I see” part.

    My over analyzing part is this. Wood hates to lose basketball games-more than most, perhaps more than our HC.

    CJ hates to lose “his game”.

    The two actually are quite similar in how much they detest those different things. It’s just too bad they have had to be at State at the same time.

  24. Whiteshoes67 02/24/2013 at 12:03 PM #

    ^ Here! Here! CD…The 4 got plenty of touches. Too often, ball movement stalls there. He made one really nice play on a drive and dish to Howell for an easy 2 in the first half, but you see that type of play so very infrequently. He initiates a lot of contact, often creating more difficult shots than he might. Early in the year, I was impressed with what appeared to be some improvement in his mid-range game. But he seems to have abandoned that altogether.

  25. NCSU84 02/24/2013 at 12:06 PM #

    Well said Packattack13. This ‘what have you done for me lately’ mentality has got to go – it is getting to be annoying. Maybe Lee Fowler was right about the lunatic fringe. Folks on this board should start supporting our team if they are a true fans.

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