NCSU is not alone in our disgust at the Duke/UNC double standard

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Other people are beginning to tire of the obvious “kid glove” treatment Duke and UNC have been receiving by the ACC. It is a subject that has been discussed on our blog many, many times.

In this article in the Augusta Free Press, Chris Graham makes many of the same observations we have made. Here are his observations about the latest debacles:

The suits didn’t expect lowly Virginia Tech to almost upset the apple cart 36 hours later in Durham. but a couple of phantom fouls on Tech senior Dorenzo Hudson prevented a Hokie second-half runaway and let the Dookies fight back to post an overtime win.

Sound familiar? A couple of interesting statistics to note, Duke shot 34 free throws to Tech’s 16 and Duke had only 13 fouls called on them compared to Tech’s 25.

Later Saturday, Virginia – long dormant, but threatening to be thorns in the side under third-year coach Tony Bennett – was doing its best to throw a wrench into the march toward the inevitable, somehow leading at the half against North Carolina despite losing star Mike Scott to two chintzy fouls, and taking another lead in the final six minutes after losing Scott to two more quick second-half fouls, including one that would have earned John Henson either a yellow card in European soccer or a Best Supporting Actor honor at tonight’s Academy Awards

In this game UNC shot 23 free throws to UVA’s 6 (yes that is four times as many free throws) and UNC was called for 11 fouls compared to UVA’s 17.

The writer’s conclusions are what interest me. He says:

For those of us who are fans and alums of ACC schools not named Duke and North Carolina, life goes on as always… But we never really do anything that will actually have an impact – like, I don’t know, boycott en masse the season tickets of our favorite schools, to send a message… As long as we keep acting like the sheep that we are, change in the ACC ain’t never gonna happen

The question I have is can the ACC be fixed? Can the ingrained mistreatment of the “other” schools ever be rectified? So far it has not even been acknowledged so how can it ever be fixed?

Time for some audience participation!  Try to guess which player had the foul called on him in this picture:

If you said Virginia player Mike Scott…you were correct! 

At least Len Elmore called the officials to task. Right after they called the foul on Scott, they went over to the monitor to see if Scott had also thrown an elbow. Elmore said, “You can’t cover up a bad call by pretending to check to see if the guy you called it on threw an elbow.”

 

 

 

About Rick

1992 and 2002 graduate from NCSU. Born and raised an NCSU fan. I remember the good ol' days and they weren't in the last 20 years.

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75 Responses to NCSU is not alone in our disgust at the Duke/UNC double standard

  1. tjfoose1 02/27/2012 at 1:26 PM #

    “What if the fans themselves boycott the tournament?”

    That’s a different story, but I still think unlikely to happen, wholesale anyway. However, one could argue it’s already begun to happen. See significant decrease in demand of Tourney tickets from 90’s to now.

    But even if it were to happen, the Conference would spin its cause as something else.

  2. HPWolf 02/27/2012 at 1:27 PM #

    I’m not so sure anything can be done by protesting the front office. If we can have swofford removed as a conflict of interest measure then maybe. I believe the only true way to take the league back and have justice and fair play is to get the horses on the roster to TAKE IT BACK. We got screwed at Duke but we didn’t help ourselves at all in the last 10 minutes of that game. This recruiting class and our current roster should make things interesting next year.

  3. pnasty21 02/27/2012 at 1:29 PM #

    ” I believe the only true way to take the league back and have justice and fair play is to get the horses on the roster to TAKE IT BACK.”

    Speaking of horses, is Amile coming to State? Do we have scholarship room if he wants a spot?

  4. TruthBKnown Returns 02/27/2012 at 1:30 PM #

    “Typical banter from this fanboy site.”

    People rarely complain when they are the BENEFICIARY of bad calls. UNX fans sure do complain about officiating when they lose, though. But somehow we’re the ones they call out for doing it, and we are the ones with the valid point to make.

    The funny thing is, any time Carolina is involved in a game where the officiating is relatively balanced, they complain that it is unfair. They’re so used to getting the calls in their favor, they have come to think that is the norm, and a fairly called game.

  5. fullmoon1 02/27/2012 at 1:33 PM #

    At least as far as UNC goes the bias has been there as long as I have been keeping up with it , I’ll say since early 80’s. IMHO it increased post 1983. The claims always get dismissed and we get labled as guys with tin foli hats but there is something to it. While understanding the “human element”, this phenom does not explain away all the blantant breaking of rules on a daily basis(see hand checking) by blue teams in the ACC.

  6. TruthBKnown Returns 02/27/2012 at 1:33 PM #

    I agree that a boycott by the fans (of even their OWN teams) is the only way to get the attention of the powers that be. The problem is the demand is so great (as in, for tickets) and the supply is so small, that even if the majority would participate in the boycott, there would still be enough fans to fill the seats. And the ones boycotting would continue to watch on TV. So it can’t realistically work.

    I’ve said for years that the only way to force a real playoff in college football would be for a mass boycott. But that won’t work either, for the same reason. There would be enough sellouts (or people that just don’t care) that would still buy the tickets. A boycott can’t realistically be felt. And that’s sad. We can’t even “vote with our wallets” and make an impact.

  7. 4PackinMB 02/27/2012 at 1:40 PM #

    I disagree wholeheartedly, TruthBKnown….did the fans hire Johnny? If not, then what sense does a boycott make in order to fire him? Who that hired, can also fire….THAT is where the pressure from each school must be applied.

  8. TruthBKnown Returns 02/27/2012 at 1:42 PM #

    It doesn’t take much to help a team that a ref wants to help. The refs can’t put the ball in the basket for them, but they sure can do their part. It comes in the form of laying all kinds of touch fouls on the best players of a team, which results in either a lot of “pine time” for them, or they get so down on themselves for not being allowed to play that they don’t know what they’re allowed to do, so they become ineffective.

    Look at the State-Duke game. Our best players were out a good deal of that game because of touch fouls, while Duke’s star players were allowed leeway. At the end, Duke’s shooters were nailing threes. People might say the refs weren’t the ones hitting their threes. No, they weren’t. But they are the ones that kept State’s best defenders on the bench during those Duke scoring streaks.

    That Duke game took me out of college basketball. Until that debacle, I tried to tell myself I was just being paranoid. But that was the last straw. We didn’t win because we weren’t allowed to win. I’ve hardly watched five minutes of basketball since then. I almost don’t even care any more. I’m anxious for football now. At least play reviews make it more difficult for extreme bias to happen like in basketball. In basketball, there is too much subjectivity. And I think that makes it easier to rig.

  9. TruthBKnown Returns 02/27/2012 at 1:43 PM #

    4Pack, I’m talking about a fan boycott of games. You’re talking about an effort by the member institutions to get Swoffy removed. Two different things.

  10. Rick 02/27/2012 at 1:47 PM #

    Duke has attempted 1010 two point FGs this year. They have attempted 757 FTs

    NCSU has attempted 1244 two point FGs this year. They have attempted 596 FTs.

  11. 4PackinMB 02/27/2012 at 1:54 PM #

    Truth, again, I disagree. The heavy hand of bosses that hired you would have a much greater impact not only now, but going forward as well, than a boycott that in reality could not be orchestrated in order to change anything, there will always be fans to fill seats. But, again, if we truly want change, it starts at the top. With a completely new administration at the conference level AND the involvement of the member schools, equally, as an oversight board, then then will change. It has been time proven and even slapped in our faces (think Swofford in Indy), that nothing will change…..we will have to change it if we want it….if not, status quo.

  12. ToddFullerismyHomeboy 02/27/2012 at 2:14 PM #

    If the tin-foil hat fits, wear it.

    John Swofford made Mike Scott go 3-13 from the floor just like he made the Pack shoot FT like a 5th grade girls’ team on Saturday.

    Same can be said for the Hokies’ abysmal performance at the line. Either team shoots 50%, and the good guys win.

    Sometimes, the time comes to man up about why a team loses and quit looking for scapegoats.

    If anything, the chip was implanted into that clown John henson to make him shoot 7-8 from FT, when he usually shoots them like a Plumlee…there’s the conspiracy.

    The bellyaching has got to stop. The cigarette smoking man is not present.

  13. wilmwolf80 02/27/2012 at 2:41 PM #

    IMO the point that needs to be hammered on is not about the number of fouls; rather when, where, and on whom they are called, or not called as the case may be. After the game with Duke, without even looking at the box score, I knew that the final foul count would be fairly even. But anyone that watched that game objectively cannot tell me that when, where, and on whom those fouls were called didn’t have an impact on that game. No, the refs don’t make people have poor shooting nights, etc, but they can severely handicap a team. I do not believe that the foul discrepancy issue can be properly address solely through statistical analysis.

    The “patented” runs that Duke and UNCCH go on in the second halves of games is not because of some sort of better coaching, talent, or “will”. It is because they are allowed to play VERY physical defense and rattle the other team without worrying about getting into foul trouble. I’m NOT saying that this is result of some deep rooted conspiracy, rather that it has been subtly ingrained in the minds of officials, players, and the media over the last three decades that somehow these teams are capable of playing intense defense in a manner different from everyone else.

    As for the conference itself, until there is someone in charge that is not affiliated with the blue teams, it will not be possible to change the status quo.

  14. TheAliasTroll 02/27/2012 at 2:43 PM #

    “John Swofford made Mike Scott go 3-13 from the floor just like he made the Pack shoot FT like a 5th grade girls’ team on Saturday.”

    Pointing to a single poor statistic for the losing team does not prove that the refs are not making bias calls in a game. The two instances are not related. Do you understand that?

    What if the Pack shoots 49/50 in a game and loses by 1 point. Would you claim that questioning the refs is stupid and point to the fact that had we been 50/50 we would have won?

  15. ToddFullerismyHomeboy 02/27/2012 at 3:10 PM #

    UVa outscored carolina with Mike Scott on the bench. By that logic, there was ‘bias’ against carolina because they refs knew that UVa was playing better without Scott, so they put him out on fouls.

    See how absurd that is when you follow that sort of finger-poining, lack-of-responsibility scapegoating.

    Some folks just don’t want to admit that their team lost because of their own play. Responsibility, not bellyaching.

    In my view, the only two games cost by refs this year that I’ve seen in the ACC were the Pack’s loss to duke and carolina’s loss to duke.

    Other than those two, not.

    I swear, some of you are the kinds of NCSU fans that embarrass me, who boo EVERY call against our guys, even legitimate ones.

    The boy who cried wolf, etc.

    No pun intended.

  16. Rick 02/27/2012 at 3:28 PM #

    “In my view, the only two games cost by refs this year that I’ve seen in the ACC were the Pack’s loss to duke and carolina’s loss to duke.”

    Ah, so only YOU get to decide which games are or are not effected by refs. Hypocrite much?

  17. TheAliasTroll 02/27/2012 at 3:35 PM #

    “By that logic, there was ‘bias’ against carolina because they refs knew that UVa was playing better without Scott, so they put him out on fouls.”

    By what logic are you speaking of? You have completely lost me. Are you trolling The Troll?

  18. ToddFullerismyHomeboy 02/27/2012 at 3:45 PM #

    I’m glad you are getting my sarcasm, Rick.

  19. ToddFullerismyHomeboy 02/27/2012 at 3:48 PM #

    You, Troll, point out that there was bias against UVa in the game this weekend…particularly in the area of fouls against their best player, Scott.

    I point out that UVa was beating carolina with Scott on the bench. Using your logic, the ‘bias’ in that game was actually FOR UVa and AGAINST Carolina, since Scott’s fouls landed him on the bench.

    Do I believe that? Of course not. But, I’m pointing it out to show the holes in your thinking.

    Point is: I’m tired of our fanbase (and this site) devoted primarily to conspiracy theories and PackPride nonsense, instead of talking about the game-play and the teams’ performance. Sometimes, a team loses because its quality of play results in a loss. Almost all of the time, a few flukes (sarcastic or not) excepted.

    Get over it, y’all. It makes us look infantile and whiny.

  20. TheAliasTroll 02/27/2012 at 3:55 PM #

    “You, Troll, point out that there was bias against UVa in the game this weekend…particularly in the area of fouls against their best player, Scott.”

    No, I did not.

  21. TheAliasTroll 02/27/2012 at 4:11 PM #

    If you read my post, the point I was trying to convey was that a player having a poor shooting night is not mutually exclusive with poor or bias officiating, as you belligerently implied.

  22. bball4life 02/27/2012 at 4:15 PM #

    “Duke has attempted 1010 two point FGs this year. They have attempted 757 FTs

    NCSU has attempted 1244 two point FGs this year. They have attempted 596 FTs.”

    I’ll add some to these stats:

    UNC has attempted 1471 2 pt. FGs and 723 FTs.

    Duke has a rate of .75 FTA per 2 pt. FGA
    State has a rate of .48 FTA per 2 pt. FGA
    UNC has a rate of .49 FTA per 2 pt. FGA

    Duke has a free throw rate of 40.4 in ACC games and 46.3 overall
    State has a free throw rate of 34.7 in ACC games and 35.4 overall
    UNC has a free throw rate of 33.6 in ACC games and 38.2 overall

    Looks like the major outlier here is Duke, especially when you consider that both State and UNC have somewhat similar styles of play (inside-out, like to run), while Duke is outside with a splash of inside and more half-court oriented. I expect teams like State and UNC (who both have “real” post players and make an effort to get the ball to these players) to get fouled more often than a team like Duke that shoots almost half its shots from 3 point range.

  23. Thinkpack17 02/27/2012 at 4:19 PM #

    “I swear, some of you are the kinds of NCSU fans that embarrass me, who boo EVERY call against our guys, even legitimate ones.”

    I guess you didn’t see the thread after our 12 point loss to arch rival UNC. People were saying how the refs did a good job.

    The picture says it all, it was a very, very bad call. If you watch the footage you can see he knows he messed up. He blows his whistle and everyone stops and looks at him, he pauses for a while and points to the ground. Dude, just put both hands on your chest say “My bad!” and give UVA the ball out of bounds. Call over another ref if you want to make it look good, but for God sakes don’t just make shit up. It’s like CJW’s 4th foul at Duke. Just making shit up.

    Better to let 100 guilty go free than to punish 1 innocent man. When in doubt shut the F up and just watch.

  24. Rick 02/27/2012 at 4:25 PM #

    “Get over it, y’all. It makes us look infantile and whiny.”

    You are more than welcome to have a different opinion, but to insult other people’s opinions does nothing to bolster your own. In fact, it just makes you look insecure about the confidence in your opinion.

  25. TruthBKnown Returns 02/27/2012 at 4:48 PM #

    4Pack, I think we’re saying the same thing. I’m saying a fan boycott alone can’t work, because it is next to impossible to get enough fans on board to get it to work. And I think that’s what you’re also saying. If member institutions rise up and take down the cronies that are causing what we perceive to be an imbalanced ACC, then that is what would work.

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