Why are NC State Fans Neurotic (a la UNC Scandal)

ACC & Other Fans General UNC Scandal54

I always think it’s interesting that people claim NC State fans are so neurotic when it comes to their rivals, UNC.  People like to claim, and some NC State fans have started to buy into it, that UNC doesn’t get any kind of special treatment.  Of course not, it’s all in our heads!  Luckily, recent events have given us a more solid metric to use to explain exactly why NC State fans are so convinced of the massive Carolina bias within the UNC School System and the state in general.

I wanted to compare a few items regarding the Carolina scandal with how NC State handled things back in 1989 and 1990.  I don’t want to belabor the same-old arguments and conversations, but in light of last Saturday’s events, some thoughts came to mind.

NC STATE, Jan 1989 – Oct 1990

The offenses were a non-issue… athletically speaking.  Regardless, NC State’s administration and BOT decided that this was a disgrace to the reputation of NC State to have players selling shoes and tickets.  The result was NC State shooting itself in the foot with a two-year probation and not allowing their team to participate in the 1990 post-season.  NC State acknowledged that they had done nothing wrong by virtue of the NCAA’s investigation, but that the players had acted unethically which required that they act to ensure their credibility as a respected institution continued.  Whether you viewed the self-inflicted wounds as an unecessary crime against Jimmy Valvano and NC State athletics or not, you at least have to acknowledge that NC State was doing what it felt it could, at the time, to correct the corruption within their ranks.

The university system, at large, formed the Poole Commission found that Valvano had “violated the spirit, not the letter of the law.”  In other words, Valvano didn’t actually do anything wrong, but he acted poorly.  The university system decided that Jimmy Valvano could not provided needed oversight over his program which resulted in Jimmy Valvano being asked to resign.  So in addition to what NC State did to themselves, the UNC School System decided it was necessary to get intimately involved with an issue that the NCAA had already ruled a non-issue and that NC State had already taken action to correct.

What’s even more shocking about this harsh punishment by the university at-large and the university system?  NC State actually invited the NCAA to investigate them in the name of being open and honest regarding allegations against their program.  In January of 1989, Athletic Director Jimmy Valvano and Chancellor Bruce Poulton sent a letter to the NCAA asking for the governing body to investigate the NC State program so they could be cleared.  In other words, at the first sight of anyone accusing NC State of being a corrupt program, Jimmy Valvano wanted everyone to know that they had nothing to hide so they invited investigaters to Raleigh voluntarily.  Despite being forth coming, NC State was still subjected to the multiple penalties handed down by the unversity in general and the UNC School System.

Let’s see how UNC is handling things and then compare the two.

UNC, Feb/Mar 2010 – Present

We have been reading for a year and a half about UNC’s handling of their multiple scandals (we are up to 40 or 50 prongs, right?).  Let’s review how this has unfolded…

  • Rumor breaks of investigation… UNC denies any rumors.
  • Evidence found that Austin (and others) took trips and were buy goods with money that wasn’t theirs… UNC has no comment on the matter.
  • Reports of investigators visiting UNC campus… UNC denies any formal investigation is occuring.
  • Reports of connections between John Blake and NFL agents surfaces… UNC denies any formal investigation is occuring, but later on fires Blake.
  • Reports that 9 players had papers written for them by Butch Davis’ nanny surfaces… UNC finally admits there is an investigation, but holds a press conference with both the Chancellor, AD, and Davis to show the university’s support of the coach.
  • Marvin Austin gets suspended indefinitely… UNC conveniently finds the proof that there are traffic violations and vehicles that Austin owned.  The fact that UNC only decided to release these papers AFTER he was suspended is… how long did they have these records BEFORE he was suspended?
  • FOIA requests required a court to order UNC to comply… UNC releases partial information (with redactions).
  • Money trail between Associate Head Coach and agents released to public… UNC begins the “rogue coach” defense.
  • Media begins to question UNC and ask for interviews (July 2011)… UNC refuses to be interviewed.
  • UNC fires Butch Davis, Baddour agrees to resign, Thorp lives… UNC still claims that Davis didn’t know anything and this is a problem with rogue players (even though such a scenario would mean there is no reason to fire their head coach).

That’s just the brief summary of things that occured and UNC’s response (and I left a TON of details out).  What have we NOT seen from the UNC investigation?

1)  What NEVER occurred was for UNC to step up in the early spring of 2010, when rumors first broke, and publicly state, “These are the accusations against us… PLEASE come investigate us and clean this up!”  (Recall, this is exactly what NC State did back in January of 1989 before an NCAA investigation had begun.)
2) What has NOT occurred is UNC acknowledge that something is going on. They have also never admitted that either they, or the university system, need to conduct their own internal investigation for the purpose of assessing potential further-reaching penalties against individuals within the university who may escape punishment from the NCAA. (Recall, both NC State AND the UNC School System investigated the NC State basketball program IN ADDITION to anything the NCAA did.)

COMPARING AND CONTRASTING PROGRAMS

What you have in NC State is a program that initially heard reports of wrong doing in their athletic program, responded immediately to clear it’s name, had a university adminsitration/BOT that felt strong enough about the unethical details of the case that they needed to punish themselves beyond what the NCAA found, and a UNC School System who was proactive and willing to investigate NC State, resulting in pressuring the program to “ask one of it’s best coaches to resign”.

Let’s contrast that with Carolina.

Carolina, according to the Notice of Allegations, had received reports of academic impropriety and willingly failed to check-up on these reports.  There is also the issue that Marvin Austin was publicly posting, via twitter, his trips and gifts he was receiving and no one said a word from within Carolina’s walls.  There’s difference #1 between NC State and Carolina: taking initiative to be honest with their fans, the public, and the acadmic institution, itself.

Carolina has also closed ranks throughout the investigation.  Looking forward, it makes you wonder if Carolina has any intentions of even considering further punishments above-and-beyond what the NCAA deals out.  The NOA already failed to mention the rumored “Loss of Institutional Control”, and many fans of Carolina and rivals alike are claiming that UNC will get off light.  If us mere mortals realize this, doesn’t the Carolina administration and BOT realize this as well?  I wouldn’t place any bets that Carolina will do any sort of self-investigation beyond what the NCAA gives them.  There’s difference #2: NC State self-evaluated their athletic program to evaluate if any additional sanctions needed to be placed on the basketball team while Carolina is doing anything it can to downplay the importance of any one individual allegation.

The final difference between NC State and UNC I wanted to bring up was how the UNC School System has acted throughout this whole ordeal.  There have been a couple of state officials speaking out, but for the most part we haven’t heard any plans for the UNC School System to support the creation of a state-appointed commission, similar to the Poole Commission, to investigate what Carolina did or didn’t do.  If NC State had to be responsible to the tax payers via public commission, so does Carolina.  There’s difference #3: NC State played by a set of rules that was founded under the auspice of being a responsible institution.  A commission was put in place to determine if anything additional to what the NCAA and NC State, internally, had found.  Does anyone seriously think that Carolina will be held to the same procedural standard?

Carolina is just “different” from NC State, athletically and administratively.  For years, NC State has had to operate under a system built to put them at a disadvantage.  Hell, from NC State’s beginnings they weren’t given any funding to hire faculty, and the relationship hasn’t sweetened much since then.  That’s one thing, but when it comes to things that are unethical (gifts, parties, etc) and even illegal (unpaid parking tickets, switching plates on vehicles, etc), NC State is held to a standard where even if they do everything they can to be an open book to the NCAA and even if that investigation yeilds no violations, we must still self-inflict wounds that cripple our athletic program and allow the UNC School System to conduct further investigations “just to make sure we’ve been punished enough”.  Show of hands: who feels like UNC is being held, and will be held, to the same standard.  Anyone?  Anyone!?

And THAT, my friends, is why NC State fans have every right in the world to be just a tad neurotic.

———-

If you are interested in more history between UNC and NC State that explains why NC State fans have every reason to be pissed off at Carolina, you may want to check out my other article on UNC that explains the history in NC State’s founding and the resistance our beloved State College faced.

About NCStatePride

***ABOUT THE AUTHOR: NCStatePride has been writing for StateFansNation.com since 2010 and is a 2009 graduate of the College of Engineering.

ACC & Other Fans General UNC Scandal

54 Responses to Why are NC State Fans Neurotic (a la UNC Scandal)

  1. NCStatePride 09/08/2011 at 9:55 PM #

    DEAR EVERYONE,

    Thank you so much for the compliments. So many people don’t seem to understand when I say the NC State rivalry with UNC is so much more than “just sports”. I hate Carolina, guys. I mean, I really, really, REALLY hate Carolina. On my way to college after each trip back home to Charlotte, I use to stop in Chapel Hill just to take a dumb in the most appropriate location possible within the state. At some point in time, it stops being a “silly sports rivalry” and it starts becoming personal. If you bleed for NC State, seeing Carolina get any form of justice doesn’t make you petty, it makes you fair.

    Again, many thanks to you all, GO TO HELL CAROLINA, AND GO STATE!!!

  2. bTHEredterror 09/08/2011 at 10:52 PM #

    OT-The Georgia Tech fight song actually goes one better.
    “He’ll say to hell with Geogia like his daddy used to do!”

    The best fight song there is, to me.

    “Like all my jolly good fellows I drink my whiskey clear.”
    b version-Like all my jolly good fellows, I chase whiskey with beer.

    BOT-As far as neurotic, who is giving their ex-caoch a friggin game ball for embarassing the university beyond belief. And this despite the fact he has convinced them that all these transgressions were unbeknownst? Crazier than a $#!+house rat.

  3. turfpack 09/08/2011 at 11:18 PM #

    Carolina sucks and always will!!!
    1981 grad… live thru that BS and will not ever forget or forgive and will take it to the grave!
    I have enjoyed this past year….serves them right
    Yes… they could have half their FB or BB teams murder students on campus and BOG,Suckfford,Twerp say it’s not anything… move along, isolated incedent…nothing to see here.
    As for the N&O …they are getting what they deserve, by their dwindling readership….like the pieces of sh%$ that they are!
    ALSO… I TOOK ONE OF YOUR WOMEN ..UNC ….SHE FOUND OUT WHAT A REAL MAN WAS OVER AT STATE! 25years and happily married. The only thing that UNX ever produce that I give a sh%$ about!!!

  4. runwiththepack 09/08/2011 at 11:22 PM #

    Did we fight on the same side with unc in WW2? Or was unc on the Nazis side?

  5. logarithm 09/09/2011 at 12:25 AM #

    @turfpack

    I’m in the same vein. I graduated in 2009 and my girlfriend had to come over the hill to find a real man too. I’m trying to explain, via this and the other link posted, what my poorly disguised hate is about. It’s not about athletics, though they will cheat as they will and none of it will ever be of consequence. It’s not about academics, though their holier-than-thou reputation will protect them and minimize any public repercussions in the state. (Not to mention how their Old English and humanities research benefits humanity vs. how our textiles and hard sciences research benefits humanity.)

    It’s about how they ARE to the public what they’ve SEEMED to be over the past 20 years, unbeatable saints (thanks a lot, basketball). The REALITY to everyone is what they’ve SEEMED to be. And as soon as there’s any suggestion of any difference from what they seem to be and what they really are, everybody flocks to what they seem to be. And it’s all wrong.

    “Esse quam videri” is “videri quam esse” over the hill. And nobody but the “lunatic fringe” seems to care.

  6. BureauOfMines 09/09/2011 at 12:57 AM #

    This excellent column is preaching to the choir. Most of the people who buy their UNC (and Duke) apparel at big box retail stores will continue to lionize the blue teams. To them, whichever team is winning is their team.

    This scandal has clearly demonstrated the corruption at UNC. It remains to be seen what will come of it.

  7. travelwolf 09/09/2011 at 1:01 AM #

    A big thanks for raising my blood pressure once more about the same !!#@)(U)# thing!!!

    I attended NCSU during that time and couldn’t understand what the big deal was… I also thought that UNC and Duke wanted Coach V gone since he actually had a basketball program that could rival them. The worst part was that the whole fiasco probably spread V’s cancer faster.

    Great article – thanks for doing the comparison in one place. Also, for pointing out that the whole university system administration is baby blue.

  8. WolftownVA81 09/09/2011 at 2:54 AM #

    UNC escapes punishment because “they’re special” (in my best Church Lady voice). Good post – keep up the drum beat. One of these days, all of this will come to light again and people will say “WTF, how can that be”. This would make for a great ESPN story and hopefully some enterprising sportscaster with some time on their hands will pick it up and run with it. As we say often on this site, you just can’t make this stuff up.

  9. Pack78 09/09/2011 at 7:03 AM #

    Recently asked my Seminole brother-in-law (married to my Heel sis)if they planned to come over to CF for the unx game; said he’d rather have hemorroid surgery.He said that he did not really understand our’bitterness’ toward unx-I’ll email him this article to help explain. This week I was watching a rerun of my favorite TV show NCIS and Gibbs quoted Rule #45: ‘If you think somebody is after you, they are.’ We are not crazy!

  10. NCSUBill 09/09/2011 at 7:23 AM #

    I would be willing to donate some of the money needed to take out a full page ad in the N&O, Charlotte Observer and the Winston-Salem paper to have the differences published.

    There is no way the media will print this or write a similar article asking the UNC BOG and the UNC BOT to take responsibility. After all, even NCSU grads pay taxes where some of the money goes to UNC-CH

  11. Texpack 09/09/2011 at 8:37 AM #

    Your comments about how quickly the Golenboch “book” would have been refuted in the internet age are quite valid. The main thing the younger generation has no appreciation for is just how much power the newspapers and TV stations had during the pre-internet age. Whatever they chose to report was quickly established as absolute fact and when a newspaper had an agenda and didn’t report the facts that were in conflict with their agenda, those facts were buried for years until the other side could write a book, which only got to a small fraction of the people who read the newspaper.

    The duplicity is obvious to anyone who examines these two situations. Thanks for laying this out in such an organized way.

  12. Hungwolf 09/09/2011 at 8:42 AM #

    Great article. Valvano stepped down as AD, Poulton resigned, UNC BOG appointed an independent investigation, NCSU welcomed the NCAA on campus, NCSU did not hire attorneys to deal with the NCAA, and the SBI investigated Valvano. All while being hounded by the N&O. I don’t know if it was mentioned but if I remember correctly the BOG and the NCSU BOT just told V that they were not going to honor the rest of his contract. V choose not to sue and moved on proving what a class act he really was.

    No doubt I have bitter feelings towards the N&O and the BOG especially Friday. Thorpe has not resigned. Baddour working/getting piad the last year of his contract under the farce that he resigned. Butch got 2.1 million, and Black Santa got paid off. The BOG wants to know how recruiting going. SBI and the attorney generals office has been way too silent. UNC-CHeat has been allowed to hire attorneys to deal with the NCAA. UNC-Cheat has been allowed to investigate themselves and surprisingly has only found wrong doing when Pack pride, lawsuits, NCAA, and interent postings by their players point it out. All while the N&O sits by and does a piss poor job of investigating or reporting one of the biggest college athletic scandals in recent history!!!

  13. NCSU84 09/09/2011 at 8:51 AM #

    To further fan the flames, if you have not done so, please read David Thompson’s book Skywalker. Pay particular attention to the recruiting battle for Thompson and the punishment we received as a result of landing #44. Your disdain for UNC will reach a new level after having read this.

  14. GoldenChain 09/09/2011 at 9:14 AM #

    You know, a while back I got on one of these ABCer rants and BJD had to remind me “don’t forget the good things unx has given us”.
    So I changed my think’…

    StatePride, you miserable worm. When will you accept your fate as turnip eating farm hand with your ole-timey firearms and Bibles laying around? You will never be anywhere close to the pure cklass and dignity of the “xarolina way”!

    Accept your fate!
    xarolina has been totally forthcoming and cooperative with the NCAA authorities because they are voluntary members of this self-policing body. Members in good standing in fact, even their head basketball coach has been on the infractions committee!
    That speaks volumes now doesn’t it! You should be ashamed.

    In fact almost all of their student athletes hold degrees in the most relavant subjects of our day (AAS) and contribute to society in way you will NEVER BE ABLE TO.

  15. JasonP 09/09/2011 at 9:55 AM #

    Great article!

    Ever try making these points to ‘hole fan? They quickly enter into denial – or ‘de nile’ depending on their unc degree.

    I firmly believe it was the Golenbock book that created this myth of Valvano as an archetypal evil, and this was the basis for every bit of libelous venom from the N&O in those days.

    Anyone recall the alumni affiliations of the UNC BOG at the time of this travesty?

  16. packof81 09/09/2011 at 10:25 AM #

    NCStatePride & Texpack’s point can’t be emphasized enough. Today, a book like Golenbocks would quickly be exposed as a hoax.

    This was an information laundering scheme. Some people make up a bunch of awful sounding allegations of serious infractions. Then they hire someone who has written a couple books and knows how to publish them to package their bogus information. Media outlets can then cite this book as a source which makes their report appear legitimate.

    The Golenbock book was a total hatchet job. The allegations were all completely over the top. No evidence whatsoever of any one of Golenbock’s allegations turned up in subsequent investigations. And what sources of information would a New York author have about events taking place in Raleigh?

    It had Carolina written all over it. They might as well have put it in a blue cover. The whole sordid affair had the look and feel of them making up a pack of lies, hiring a mercenary writer to do the dirty work of writing it up and finding a publisher. With this book as “proof”, they turned the N&O loose on it. Jimmy V didn’t even know what hit him until it was all over the news.

  17. Lsquare 09/09/2011 at 10:54 AM #

    Great article and summation, Pride. Made my blood pressure rise a few points just remembering the unfairness of it all.

    Perusing IC for some fun while I was bored (where they so hilariously supported giving Butchie the game ball) I ran across several posts where it was stated that our governor was present in the chancellor’s box at UNC for the James Madison game. Folks, that should tell us that we are never going to see an independent investigation directed by any elected or appointed official in this state. The governor, the secretary of state, the BOT, the BOG and everyone else that could have/should have called for an independent investigation a year ago, are just too plain scared of the consequences. I think they all know what that investigation would uncover, and they won’t do it. Unfortunately, our media will not call them out and force it to happen.

  18. Ashman87 09/09/2011 at 11:04 AM #

    I remember in 2009 during the N.C. State – UNC basketball game at tbe Smith Center, they showed Purdue wearing a light blue sweater. I’ve never seen her at a State game (someone please correct me if this is not the case).

  19. highstick 09/09/2011 at 11:19 AM #

    I hate Carolina as much, or more than most of you. And have done so for a lot longer. The missing piece in this article is that our own administration and academics at State were a major part of our problem also. Don’t ever forget that most of them rolled over, played dead, and we got “bung holed’ in the process!

  20. GoldenChain 09/09/2011 at 11:26 AM #

    “showed Purdue wearing a light blue sweater.”

    This brings up another issue to me: why is it that everyone who goes to a UNC affiliate is somehow grandfathered in as a hole-fan?! Seriously?!
    The most obnoxious hole fans I have ever met have been App St alumni who are hole fans!!!!!
    “I went to UNCC but I’m a hole fan!”
    “I went to UNCG but I’m a hole fan!”
    “I went to Penbrook but I’m a hole fan!”
    etc.

    Purdue’s alma maters:
    University of Kentucky B.A.
    University of Florida M.Ed.
    University of Florida Ph.D.
    I bet you didn’t know she was “Dr. Purdue” did ya?!LOL
    Bet the Wildcat Club loved seeing her in baby-blue!

  21. wufpup76 09/09/2011 at 11:55 AM #

    There had to be some connection between Golencock and the N&O.

    How many days/months was the “story” / “factual book” on the front page of the paper.

    Somebody find the money trail if it’s not too late.

  22. Hungwolf 09/09/2011 at 12:14 PM #

    I think the whole sordid affair over at the Hill has vindicated NCSU, its fans, coaches (past and present), and V himself. UNX hired a jerk and classless cheat in the name of Butch Davis. No doubt he fit in well with the fan base and boosters as he clearly is still rubbing elbows with them. Brown and Hurricane fans will tell you what an unethical moron he is, even one former player stating, if Davis’ lips are moving he’s lying. Davis being at the game on proved what a classless jerk he is, no one with any class would have been at the game. As usual, Davis was more concerned about the focus being on him than on his players! I notice ESPN nor any other network has rushed to sign him as an college football analyst!!! Everyone knows what he did and did with it the blessings of all those over at the Hill. Boosters parading around the ex-coach of Nine Major NCAA violations. Even SMU wasn’t that STUPID! NCAA had to notice UNX has no control over its boosters!!

  23. Oldwolf 09/09/2011 at 12:42 PM #

    Not sure if this is the right place for this, but it sort of fits. It shows the arrogance and better than anyone else attitude that is prevelant over there. It is the administration and the students as well.

    In this article on the search for a new AD – http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/10097856/ the following are some of the quotes:

    Steve Reznick, associate dean of undergraduate education, asked the committee to ensure that the new athletics director makes academics a priority for Tar Heels sports programs.

    Allegations of academic misconduct by football players contributed to Davis’ firing, and many students, alumni and faculty said a year-long NCAA investigation tarnished UNC’s academic reputation.

    “That would have been an important criterion whether or not we are in this post-difficulty situation because that is the Carolina way,” Reznick said. “So, what we are listening for there is an athletics director that is connected to the faculty.”

    Caudill said the committee members know very well that UNC’s history links academics and athletics closely, and they don’t plan to change that formula.

    “We would not be asking the new athletic director to not do anything we haven’t been doing for decades,” he said.

    and then this by a student:

    Junior Olivia Smith said she doesn’t mind if the committee takes its time, as long as the right person is hired.

    “I want to see someone who upholds what we call the Carolina way, which is the integrity of Carolina,” Smith said. “You kind of want to wait and make sure that we get someone who is really going to love Carolina as much as the students do.”

  24. Greywolf 09/09/2011 at 1:55 PM #

    Thank you NCStatePride.

    So Dr. Perdue is wearing baby blue? Why is that? Could it be that more big money goes to games in Kenan than C-F? Right/wrong has nothing to do with this whole smelly affair. It’s all about power and money. The rich NEVER have to pay the same price as the poor.

    What was State’s sin that had the 89-90 purge go down? We won a National Championship in 83 and needed to be put in our places?

    I sold cokes in Reynolds in the early 50’s and I’m too damn old to do much now but I will support you young whippersnappers in whatever you do to level the big playing field.

  25. Mike 09/09/2011 at 4:12 PM #

    Great article, and I am late to this show so this may fall on deaf ears.

    Bev Perdue lived in Chapel Hill for years before she arrove at the Governors mansion. As I understand it she lived on the golf course at CHCC with the rest of the snoots.

    Now I have to comment on “the book”. I was at NC State at the time, and I am a proud graduate. I am not meaning to cut down our fine university or disgrace the name of the deceased. However, a good bit of that book was accurate. There were some embellishments of the facts for sensationalism, but the events did happen. We paid a severe penalty and we still have not completely recovered.

    As I said I was there, and I saw first hand many things mentioned in the book. I know other events that happened that were not in the book. I say this for only one reason – for those blaming the book, we need to look in the mirror. It was not a complete fabrication. The embellishment is like a fish story – we went fishing and caught 8 fish at 2 pounds each. The book would have said we caught 8 fish at 10 pounds each.

    NCStatePride: Right, wrong, or indifferent, the FACTS and the RESULTS OF THE NCAA INVESTIGATION is that NC State had NO MAJOR VIOLATIONS. The decision to punish NC State was a combination of NC State looking at their own program and punishing themselves as well as the UNC School System deciding that EVEN THOUGH WE HAD COMMITTED NO MAJOR VIOLATIONS and we had VOLUNTARILY PUNISHED OUR OWN PROGRAM that our punishments were not good enough for what they thought we deserved.

    The question now has absolutely NOTHING to do with a book and whether it was valid or not. The question is why was NC State found to commit NO MAJOR VIOLATIONS, yet our university thought it necessary to take action as well as the UNC School System… yet we see NONE of the same punishments being given out at Chapel Hill.

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