Attention Young Hoops Fans: Don’t Say Stupid Stuff

ACC & Other General NCS Basketball37

There has been a lot of discussion, on our forums and NC State blogs all around, about the current state of NC State basketball and where we have been in recent history compared to where we were decades ago.  As a younger fan (Born in the mid-1980’s, Class of 2009), I have had to suffer through the knowledge that our “happiest” moments were going to a Sweet Sixteen while my parents and the older generations always spoke about the “Glory Days” in the 1970’s and 1980’s with National Championships and multiple ACCT runs.

Fortunately, a few of these old geezers managed to pack enough Ginkgo Biloba to educate me a little before I made stupid claims.  Chiefly, that NC State was “really, really good when Sendek was taking NC State to 5-straight NCAA tournaments”.  Here is an excerpt to a response from what I perceived to be such a claim.

This is from a guy a bit younger than you, [Poster’s Name Hidden]…. that was one of the dumbest things I have ever read with regards to NC State basketball and it is exactly the reason why I don’t blame older fans for having stereotypes of us youngins.

I mean, seriously? …
“The “streak” of Elite 8s you speak of was a whopping 2 in ’85 & ’86.”

So you are stating that the 5 NCAAT in the 80’s were less impressive because there were only two elite eights?  Newsflash: two is more than zero.  You are saying that the 1983 Championship was a miracle.  You are almost dismissing the talent of the 1983 team just because you see it as “a miracle”.  So what make 1983 luck more than 2005?  You know who we had to beat to get to the Sweet Sixteen?  UNC-freaking-Charlotte and a UConn team that was coming off losing players to winning the National Championship the previous year.

PS, in 2005, we lost to Wisconsin in classic… classicHerb Sendek fashion by gaining a 9pt lead at the half, then letting them run up the score on us in the second half.  Even the droopy-dog face of Sendek couldn’t save us then.

Droopy Dog or Disappointed NC State Coach?

Can’t tell, can ya?

Ok, so maybe that was a bit insulting (and I apologize upfront for singling out a particular post from a fellow NC State fan), but come on, folks.  It is undeniable that NC State is a national program, historically, and still has a right to be a national program. ESPN/Saragin computes the all-time rankings based on every program’s level of success.  Despite the past 20 years, NC State is still the 22 best program in the country.  That puts us right in front of ‘Cuse and right behind ‘Nova after basically not winning at all in the area of titles in the last 2 decades.

Now do not be confused: this is not some hack piece on a former coach.  What this has to do with is the increasing distance between the older generation of NC State basketball fans and the newer generation.  The fact that a comparison would even be made between the 2002-2006 NCAAT streak and 1985-1989 NCAAT streak says it all.

To conclude, I just want to say this: younger fans, do not accept any of the utter crap that is unloaded on you by the sports media that somehow NC State should be happy with what it can get.  What a load.  Instead, take the time to actually determine whyNC State finds itself in it’s current predicament and then ask yourself why NC State shouldn’t expect to be a nationally competitive program.  To the older fans, have patience with the younger.  There is a generation gap at NC State unlike any at other basketball institutions.  It’s not the fault of the younger crowd that the NC State administration and Board of Governors have done an effective job of cryogenicly freezing the NC State program.  Try to understand where they are coming from but, by God, don’t let them get away with this stupid concept that somehow NC State needs to “know their place” or should “accept what they can get”.

About NCStatePride

***ABOUT THE AUTHOR: NCStatePride has been writing for StateFansNation.com since 2010 and is a 2009 graduate of the College of Engineering.

ACC & Other General NCS Basketball

37 Responses to Attention Young Hoops Fans: Don’t Say Stupid Stuff

  1. Baccapacker 01/28/2011 at 10:54 AM #

    I’m a young fan too so the hodge years are also my best hoops memories and while i will always hold them dear to me I have always expected and hoped for much more because I am not blind to the history. I graduated in 08 so that sweet sixteen run, when I was a freshman I think, is really all I’ve got. I grew up around a bunch of old timers who always talk about the time when N.C. State was dominant and feared and sadly I can’t even imagine what that’s like. My whole life has been just hoping that they finally break through and instead of expecting to beat good teams we young guys only have optimism and hope that we steal one every now and then. I long for the pack to be feared in my time, for the dukes and unc’s to be expecting a loss or at least a heck of a game when they play us the way that I think of them. I’ve said it on here before though and i’l say it again, I think this is a very important moment in our programs history. We have the chance now to right the ship by hiring the right guy. I appreciate what Lowe has done for us and he has made it a more attractive job i think this time around and we have much better personell in charge of the search. I also believe that if the next guy can retain the talent we have now and maybe even some of the guys that are committed to us now we could be looking at a very dangerous team in about two years. Now that the apathy towards sports from top that I’ve always thought was responsible for the state of the program is gone, this is our time to have justifiable optimism in getting this thing turned around. I’ve always said that there aren’t many programs out there with a history like ours that are down and have been down for as long as our program has and the reason for that has been the apathetic leadership for the last 20 odd years. The hiring of DY has given me about the most true, proven reason for optimism that I’ve had in my 24 years of being a Wolfpack fan.

  2. Baccapacker 01/28/2011 at 11:02 AM #

    I know I ramble, sorry about that, but I would also like to add that to the media and the people who say we should be content with what we have and not expect to compete with duke and unc for top spots in the conference, if that’s your attitude then why even play the game? Why work hard and practice hard if you don’t expect to compete with the best, I mean that is the whole reason for playing sports. And as fans, if that were our attitude, then why even bother getting emotionally invested in following the team and spending money to watch them compete if your attitude is that you can’t compete. It’s a really stupid concept when you break it down.

  3. VaWolf82 01/28/2011 at 11:11 AM #

    Free Advice:
    Use paragraph breaks if you really want someone to read what you write.

  4. jbpackfan 01/28/2011 at 11:26 AM #

    Where’d you get that pic of Rodney Monroe? BTW, Wake Forest did a tremendous job blocking out, but they forgot to guard Rodney!

  5. Baccapacker 01/28/2011 at 11:28 AM #

    My bad VaWolf, was typing on an ipad earlier, not an ideal keyboard.

  6. NCStatePride 01/28/2011 at 11:28 AM #

    I just googled it, but I try to keep a folder on my desktop of cool NC State pictures I come across.

  7. highstick 01/28/2011 at 11:46 AM #

    Who you calling an Old Timer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Crap, I got called a “curmudgeon’ last night by a young attorney. I’m sure his father in law who lives a couple of doors from me AND is older will appreciate that one!

    I know I’ve repeated the story(which I tend to do since I’m an Old Timer Curmudgeon), but on the light rail trip a couple of years ago after we let a game slip from our grasp(another coaching lapse), I asked some of the State fans if they remembered when we had a winning program. All I got was blank stares..And it continues to get worse every day…

  8. bradleyb123 01/28/2011 at 12:01 PM #

    Well done, NCStatePride. It’s nice to see the younger fans “get it” without having lived through better times of State basketball.

    It also irritates me when people act like State can’t get a good coach because he would have to compete with the likes of UNC and Duke in our own backyard. That’s just dumb. First of all, if Duke had adopted that attitude back in the early 80’s, when THEY were in the shadows of UNC and NC State, they wouldn’t have succeeded like they did. So we’re supposed to roll over and play dead? I don’t think so! (Besides, we wouldn’t want a coach that wasn’t up to that challenge anyway. We could have just made Lee Fowler our coach and been done with it a long time ago, because his attitude was that we shouldn’t be expected to compete with the blues just down the road.)

    First of all, there’s no reason we can’t be a power again. How many great recruits come out of high school every year? How many players are on UNC’s and Duke’s rosters? I’m sorry, but there’s plenty of top talent to go around. We don’t have to take THEIR recruits in order to get GOOD recruits of our own.

    Secondly, part of the reason UNC and Duke have been so successful over the years is partly BECAUSE we have been so bad. When we were competitive, we were able to help keep them in check. If we had won a few championships over the years, there would have been fewer available for them to win. People automatically assume that they will stay at the top. But if they start getting more competition, that alone might bring them down a notch or two.

    And one more observation on the whole competing with them for recruits thing… even as we’re mired in mediocrity, not going to NCAA tournaments, etc., Sidney Lowe still managed to bring in some great recruits. So don’t let anyone tell you we can’t compete. We just need a great coach. The player foundation is there. They just need someone to lead them.

  9. heavy 01/28/2011 at 2:16 PM #

    Is this really necessary? You made your point on the blog…

    NCStatePride: The blog and the forums (which is what you meant when you said “blog”) attract different users. Some items are moved to the mainside if it appeals to a bigger audience, in this case, all younger fans, and addresses a bigger issue, such as the generation gap between fans.

  10. heavy 01/28/2011 at 3:15 PM #

    Sorry, I did mean forums. My point was more towards the delivery, not the message. I agree that State deserves better, my thought though is that calling out this poster in a full blown blog as sort of the center piece of the article may divide community. This is a teachable moment about the history of State. I believe the arm around the shoulder rather than the bustin’ a foot where the sun don’t shine approach may have better results…just my 2 cents.

  11. NCStatePride 01/28/2011 at 3:20 PM #

    I see no names of posters being called out and no reference or link to who the poster is. I agree with your point which is why any reference to specific individuals has been deleted. If I have to start “bustin’ a foot where the sun don’t shine” to an anonymous non-person to make a point, so be it. Regardless, your point is duly noted.

  12. heavy 01/28/2011 at 3:28 PM #

    I hear ya Pride and I appreciate the work you (and the rest of Statefans) provide. Just trying the be the kinder/gentler Heavy after our last interchange.

  13. wolfpackbball 01/28/2011 at 3:33 PM #

    I tend to agree with heavy that teaching rather than trying to beat the history into the younger crowd’s brains is probably a better idea.
    I was 7 years old in 1983 and that is the first national championship I remember with any degree of clarity. I hate to think that I have seen the best days of Wolfpack basketball. I agree that settling for our level of success in the 2000s is ridiculous and I refuse to listen to any idiot making that argument. However, I think ANY school in a BCS conference, especially one with our resources and enrollment, should believe that they can achieve a higher level of success. The sense of entitlement will NEVER get us to a higher level. Because the jersey says NC State does not mean we deserve anything any more than the next school. Making the right decisions with hires/marketing/resources is what will get us to the next level, not our history.

  14. NCStatePride 01/28/2011 at 3:33 PM #

    Much appreciated. Chest-bumps all around. That’s what this whole blog post is about: everyone understanding everyone else.

    @Wolfpackbball, I think that gets into a semantecal argument. You are saying “we should never feel entitled to anything” but also state “settling for the success in the 2000s is ridiculous”. I completely agree with the second statement and that is what this blog article is speaking to. What you are calling “entitlement” seems to be more of what I would say is sitting back and expecting success to happen. I agree that’s not right. When I say we should feel entitled, what I mean is that NC State should feel entitled to be one of the nation’s top programs, a part of that being qualified coaching and hard-working student-athletes. I see the smart hires/smart recruiting as a “how” instead of a “what”. The “what” is that we won’t settle for “just being one of those sweet sixteen teams all the time” but rather “we’re always in contention for the final four”. The “how” is support from the administration, good coaching, and proper branding.

  15. phillypacker 01/28/2011 at 3:49 PM #

    NCStatePride,

    There is no “generation gap.” I have been a regular participant with SFN, and its older iterations, (remember “infopack”) since 1995-1996. I think that was one of State’s earliest web fan presences. I am 47, I work with college students five days a week. And live in the world of 18-25 years old most of the time. I love my work.

    I think most of us are familiar with the notion of respecting those who have been in a community long before new comers. It was called waiting your turn or maintaining patience, and humility as you become part of the community.

    Pride, you wrote a fabulous post the other day and I commended you for it. I also commend the main point of this piece of “not being stupid.” I admire the fact that you posted complaints about you in your piece. You have also written some posts that appeared so ignorant of historical context and so unaware of the complexities beneath the things you were writing that I posted that perhaps you could be paid not to post.

    I deal with students on a daily basis who struggle with being dismissed by older people even though they do have important things to say. Even in the Bible, Paul instructs Timothy not to take crap off of people who do not treat him with appropriate respect because of his youth.

    Here are a few things I want to share with younger posters:

    1. There are people on here who have been posting for many, many years who are so pessimistic (like complete blackness) that although they are often dead on, their blackness, coming off their posts like vapors, undermines what they are trying to say.

    2. Fan support needs to be perpetuated from generation. When this takes place in families it can often be a wonderful bond. (It was for me and my dad, who died in 2000. We sat in Section 28, Row K, seats 30-33, for almost 25 years.) So, in other words, I for one, and I am sure many, if not most of us, love having younger fans on the site.

    3. On the other hand, presumptuousness, hubris, being overly sensitive to the point of thinking a lot of posters on here are insulting you (sometimes they are intentionally insulting you), make up basic rites of passage into young adulthood. Many of us have learned that lesson after having our heads handed to us, again and again.

    So, give yourselves a break. Post on here, but perhaps posting questions, versus declarations, might be more attractive to the community. For instance, rather than staying “our fencing team sucks.”(State does not have an NCAA type fencing team.) You might try “Have other people noticed the fencing teams losses lately? Do other people believe the program is heading in the right direction?”

    Doing so invites people to learn from you and vice versa. Also, many internet posters (certainly me) include a fair amount of loathing to their posts, because they can. (because they are anonymous, and have little reason to fear getting punched out) Websites often provide their users the opportunity to vent at least, and to be the person they can’t usually be in real life.

    I’m really not trying to be patronizing or condescending. Part of the problem here is that I am a media studies professor, who teaches about social media.

    Enjoy being young and having your head handed to you. I’m sure most of us who have been on longer have suffered that experience.

    Remember we want you on here and enjoy making you feel welcome. However, when things are said in here that have no roots in the world we live in, you are probably going to get verbally smacked. The only way we learn what we do not know comes from others coming alongside and explaining rather than telling young posters how stupid they are.

    Go Pack! Here’s to a return to greatness while all of us are young enough to really enjoy it!

  16. wolfpackbball 01/28/2011 at 3:51 PM #

    I see what you are saying. It seems that as I read many posts over the years that the underlying sentiment is that because we were good prior to the 90s, we deserve to be good now. I guess my whole point is that if we’re relying on past successes to somehow magically put us back into contention for ACC/NCAA titles, then we’re never going to get there. I don’t think we can rely on history to attract coaches/players either, but I do think Debbie Yow knows how to run an athletic department and step one on the road to success has been taken.

  17. highstick 01/28/2011 at 4:23 PM #

    We “deserved” what we got..which is because we “rolled over and died” and allowed a segment of our own university to run us into the ground.

    There’s no entitlement mentality here that I’ve noticed, just a continuing frustration of not taking the actions to get our sorry butts out of the ditch.

    Granted, some moves have been made in the last year that have been extremely positive, but the Italians didn’t dig out of the rubble of Rome overnight..

  18. triadwolf 01/28/2011 at 4:30 PM #

    Has anyone read Tim Peeler’s book on NC State Basketball? I haven’t read it myself yet, but it sounds as if it covers a lot of what us more experienced guys are trying to pound home. NC State was not only a competitive program, it created the very model that drove college basketball to the monster it is today. Perhaps it should be required reading to educate those that weren’t around to live it.

    Looking at a lot of the 30 for 30 ESPN documentary series, a show on what Case did to launch the game of college basketball would fit right in and should be on their short list for future shows. Perhaps Debbie will suggest such a thing to the network. I’d be great exposure for a program that deparately needs it and a great way to kick off a new era.

  19. heavy 01/28/2011 at 4:56 PM #

    As a Yankees fan (okay start all of the booing and hissing at will), entitlement surrounds ‘the Evil Empire’, so I have a feeling of what that’s like. From what I’ve seen/felt, there is no way State fans have a sense of entitlement. Whatever demographic you want to use to slice it, I have not found it. I’m with Highstick, there’s frustration (myself included) and a lot of it.

  20. highstick 01/28/2011 at 5:54 PM #

    Hey, I’m a Yankee fan too..but I was one before Steinbrenner bought the team…

    When I was reading the article on Case a week or so ago, I started trying to remember when I first got hooked on basketball. I grew up in the 50’s, graduated from HS in 63 from a smaller town in NC. Growing up, it was all football and baseball and I don’t think any of us played much basketball until about the 8th grade. Reminded me of the point made about Case riding around in NC with a blackboard trying to explain the game of basketball to a bunch of North Carolineans.

    With State’s success and UNC’s 1957 championship, things did start to change in the Carolinas related to basketball. By the 9th grade, we were sneaking into the high school gym to practice and play on a hardwood court and glass backboards rather than a chopped down tree and a backboard made of 1X6’s.

    Case, McGuire, Larise, Speaks became household names along with Rosenbluth, Chappell, and that damned Billy Packer. “Speaks”, who the hell is he? I’ll leave that for you young State alum to go look up..We’d have been a lot better in 63, if he’d been around…

    16 teams made the tournament and it was either win the ACC tourney or the season was over. Think about that…16 teams..no bubble brackets or Les Robinson play-games for a Sendek…Herb would have been sent packing quickly at that time.

    We got lucky several times and won the tourney and then would get bounced early(1965 when Bill Bradley’s Princeton team knocked us out in the first game of the Eastern Regionals)..Who is Bill Bradley? Got in there again with Williford and crew beating the Cocks in the ACC tournament(and yes, the Gamecocks still think we cheated them at every turn)..

    We kept getting better though even though Pistol Pete went to LSU..and another forgotten NC State player went too by the name of Nelson Isley..Wonder how that happened? Another research project for you guys…

    Reeling from the loss of Case and Maravich, we could have folded the tent, but we didn’t. Along came a tall skinny guy…Yep, we’d had those before…Paul Hudson, 6’11” who couldn’t out jump little old 6’2″ skinny Bob Lewis…Who??????????? BUT, along with that skinny kid, a few more players showed up the next year, DT, Towe, and a baseball pitcher by the name of Stoddard..But, danged old Wolfpack luck or lack of it, reared it’s head again and we ended up on probation because of a danged pickup game..Horrors, a recruit played in a pickup game! Worse than that, a guard stole a 12 pack of aspirin in a convenience store,and someone else “borrowed” a stereo from a dorm room. Again, we could have folded the tent..

    But we didn’t, we won the ACC tourney going away and punctuated by a dunk from a 6 foot guard who promptly was called for a technical foul for dunking. Oh, yea, you couldn’t dunk then, you couldn’t travel then, and you sure as hell couldn’t charge or hand check..Horrors, we were a bunch of cheats and thugs, at least that’s what you’ll hear out of the Tarholes now who have had more criminal violations in a day than we had ever accumulated.

    So, we went out the next year still carrying that chip on our shoulder and won everything except for one little game against UCLA and then redeemed ourselves in the NCAA semifinal game by beating the mighty Wooden and his red headed hippy center. We could have stopped then, but we didn’t, we beat old Al McGuire’s Marquette team and took home the first NCAA basketball trophy to NC State…Oh yea, at that time, UNC had one, we had one, and Duke had a big goose egg!!! We can’t compete, remember???

    We squandered away the next year cause we should have won it again, but dissension hit the team and it didn’t happen. Over the next 7-8 years, we were pretty respectable and looked fairly good in 83 until Whit got hurt…Could have folded the tent again, but we DIDN’T…Whit came back and we could have folded the tent a gazillion times(or so it seemed over the next few games), but we DIDN’T. We battled and struggled and won in triple OT so many times, the team earned their moniker, the Cardiac Kids…Thank God, I had a young heart then, cause I’m not sure I could handle that now.

    So we get to the final game and get to face Houston’s famed Dunking Machine of a team(yep, it was legal again). Certainly we’d fold the tent in the face of Phi Slamma Jamma..Hell, no, this Italian guy from a mid major was coaching us and he didn’t know how to give up and sure wouldn’t fold a damned tent! Won again..but the Tarholes couldn’t stand it that we had two and they had just gotten there second the year before.. Where are you, Duke? Can’t you compete???

    But, then things turned South and the beginning of the tent folding started…It’s been folded for so long and put in the back corner of the garage that an entire generation think it’s always been there and we really cannot compete…Also, some drank from the light blue wine jug, some listened to Fowler, Sendek, an a Chancellor or two that wanted to bury the tent..

    I’ve run on long enough, but there are glimmers of hope that that tent is being pulled out of the mothballs..We drank from that same jug last year and believed the hype, but now we’ve seen that it’s not as simple as throwing a bunch of 5 stars on the court and waiting for it to happen. It takes work, commitment, and intestinal fortitude and that’s not only from the team, but the fans also.

    Will the tent ever be the “Big Top” again? Who knows..But I’m not giving up even as much as I want to at times…Why? Because of the little Italian guy from the mid major college who said “Don’t Ever Give Up”..He was right!

    Sorry for the epistle. I haven’t even spell or grammar checked it, but it came from the gut!! And the heart!

  21. WeAreCured 01/28/2011 at 6:46 PM #

    This was directed at me.

    It is completely unnecessary.

    None of what I said was “dumb.” They were facts. All I was trying to say was that some of you older fans need to be more realistic and stop acting like spoiled little children. By “realistic” I do not mean to say that the 02-06 run was our ceiling. It was however, “good,” which is exactly what I said. That is the “realistic” I refer too. Not that that run was realistically our ceiling, but that it was realistically “good.” Do I want State to win 10 championships in a row? Hell, yes. Will I denigrate a significant achievement like the 02-06 run? Hell, no. I’m more of a fan than anyone who would. Also, I do not appreciate being talked down to. Just because you’re older than me does not make you smarter or wiser and several of your comments illustrate this point. I am allowed to have my own opinion, and just because someone disagrees for reasons they can’t even factually articulate doesn’t mean I should be called out or harassed.

    The quotes were taken out of context. Especially, the streak of Elite 8s comment. An old timer said he was used to streaks of Elite 8s in the old days, not streaks of making the tournament. I merely pointed out the “streak” of Elite 8s was only 2, and as such was not the everyday occurrence he made it to be. He just remembers the achievement fondly because he witnessed it. I also was just pointing out that 5 tournaments in a row is our record. That’s a fact, and that’s all I was stating. I remember it fondly because I witnessed it. That’s all I was saying. It’s relative.

    My father played basketball and soccer for NC State in the mid 60s. He was a scholarship player in both, not a walk on. I know the history.

    That’s all I will say now, and that’s all I will ever say about this topic. End of discussion on my end. I hope to be involved less controversially in the future.

    NCStatePride: I had a response, but the overwhelming response from the SFN and social networking community speaks for itself. A little controversy is good for venting those frustrations we have had over this season thus far. I apologize if you walked away from this article feeling insulted. I don’t apologize for proving a point. tjfoose (below) probably summarizes any response I could probably have the best.

  22. tjfoose1 01/28/2011 at 6:59 PM #

    Anyone who tries to make such a comparison of 80′ s NC State basketball to that of the early 2000’s is not undeserving of a strategically placed foot, rhetorically speaking of course.

    Especially when done in such a tone.

    Stop the cuddling of the generation. Stupid, dumb, and ignorant deserves to be called out. It’s part of the learning process.

    That is, of course, unless you think the young fans should be treated with the same kid gloves as the players on the basketball team.

  23. FunPack 01/28/2011 at 7:04 PM #

    ^^Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! (Don’t stop him… he’s on a roll…).

    Thanks Highstick. Love your post. LOVE it. Remember the tarholes also won in 1982 (Jordan’s shot, and the panicked pass from the G-town guard straight to Worthy). But this is a minor correction to a great comment.

    NCStatePride, thanks also. Really enjoyed the post. I grew up in the 70’s and became a State fan then. Went to school in the 80’s and agree that we had a different mentality then towards the basketball team. We certainly did not expect to win every game, but we knew we would be competitive in every one and would win our share. When we played games against the top teams in the country, in ACC or out, we had the realistic expectation of seeing a compelling game, even if we didn’t win them all.

  24. highstick 01/28/2011 at 7:57 PM #

    Went back and corrected that one FunPack…I always want to put them in 84 versus 82…mental block, I guess.

    Who is Jon Speaks???No answers yet….

  25. camel77 01/28/2011 at 8:20 PM #

    If it wasn’t for North Carolina State and Everett Case, we wouldn’t have big time basketball in the South as we know it. Duke and the University of North Carolina got tired of losing their butts to NC State all the time and put more attention to the basketball by getting good coaches . Duke hired Vic Bubas (a former State player) in 1960 and UNC hired Dean Smith in 1961. Bubas had success earlier but was there for only nine years.

    It took Dean Smith six years to win his first championship. UNC became successful because they had continuity at coach for over thirty years. Duke is successful now because of the same reason. Even with Coach K, it took his sixth team to win a championship. What if Duke or Carolina had given up on their coaches after five years? I don’t think they would be where they are today. Given the youth of the State team this year, let’s not give up on them yet.

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