Johnny Thomas’ next stop? aka The dearth of depth at the wing

10-11 Basketball Basketball Recruiting22

Just got an email from a good friend sharing the insight that Johnny Thomas is staying local – much more local than Josh Davis – and could end up at Appalachian State or UNC-Wilmington. (Link to entry from earlier in the week)

Good luck to Johnny wherever he ultimately chooses…but, boy do I ever wish he would stay in Raleigh for the next couple of years. As Derek previously highlighted:

This move also makes a mark on the 2010-2011 season more than you might think because of the depth Thomas would have provided at the small forward position. Unless the Pack take a transfer NC State will enter fall camp with 10 scholarship players, three of which will be freshmen. Obviously those freshmen will be more advanced than the freshmen from recent classes, but they will still be freshmen. Thomas would have been an important part of practice and early season games from a depth and experience point of view. His departure may not impact the point and rebound sections of the box score, but it will make a mark on minutes.

I have to tell you that I am absolutely dumbfounded at the recent events within the Wolfpack’s Basketball Program as it relates to this 3F / wing forward position. In less than a month NC State has failed to pursue/land Tashawn Mabry on the recruiting trail and then lost Josh Davis and Johnny Thomas to transfers…supposedly because of playing time.

No offense to the intellect of these kids…but…guys…if there aren’t any other players on the roster at your position then you have a super chance of getting playing time!?! I do not know to whom you are listening, but I’m presuming they aren’t a math major(s).

The following roster will outline the current condition NC State’s depth. You will see a problem in experienced depth for this team after the departures of Mays, Thomas and Davis. You will also note a very serious issue with scholarship spacing and upper classmen in the future. (By the way, we’ve been running these rosters and using this format for at least four years and we see exact cuts and pastes of work pop up all over the internet. Is it really that hard to ask that you acknowledge where you got ‘your’ work?)

Projected 2009-2010 NC State Basketball Roster

Senior Class
(1) Javi Gonzalez (PG)
(2) Tracy Smith (4F)

Junior Class
(3) CJ Williams (Wing)

Sophomore Class
(4) Scott Wood (Wing)
(5) Richard Howell (PF)
(6) Jordan Vandenberg (C)
(7) DeShawn Painter (PF/C)

Freshman Class
(8) Lorenzo Brown (PG/SG)
(9) Ryan Harrow (PG)
(10) CJ Leslie (WF/PF)

2011 Commits
(11) Joseph Uchebo (C)
(12) Open
(13) Open
(1) Departure of Javi Gonzalez
(2) Departure of Tracy Smith

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10-11 Basketball Basketball Recruiting

22 Responses to Johnny Thomas’ next stop? aka The dearth of depth at the wing

  1. nycfan 06/13/2010 at 11:31 AM #

    To be honest, I fail to see the problem. Here’s how I see State’s depth chart:

    PG — Harrow, Gonzalez, Brown
    SG — Brown, Wood, Gonzalez
    WF — Leslie, Wood, Williams, Brown
    Post — Smith, Painter, Howell, Vanderberg, Leslie

    State is 3 deep at every position (really 2.5 at post), with lots of minutes to Brown, Wood and Leslie at multiple positions. That is an impressive rotation of 10 guys with no real deadwood and a lot of flexibility. If anything, I see a team that has been pruned to avoid any chemistry issues arising from playing time resentment or concerns.

    Having only ten guys could hurt in terms of practice at times, esp. if some one is injured or otherwise can’t practice, but I don’t see anything at all dire here.

    In fact, this State team could really change personalities on a dime, including a potentially wicked super-quick small line-up of Harrow, Gonzalez, Brown, Leslie and Smith, or go much bigger with Harrow, Brown or Wood, Leslie, Painter or Howell, and Smith.

  2. Sw0rdf1sh 06/13/2010 at 11:55 AM #

    Come to the Dub JT. Give me a reason to go see a team play ball in some form of blue. Teal is a blue right?

  3. choppack1 06/13/2010 at 12:57 PM #

    I don’t really see wing as much of an issue either right now. Now, if buy some crazy fluke Leslie AND Brown both left after next year – it could be an issue.

    Personally, I’m a little more concerned about what the recent rash of transfers could say about chemistry and communication on the part of the staff than I am about what they bring to the court.

  4. ShootingGuard 06/13/2010 at 1:06 PM #

    nyc…I agree with you.

    The only thing that scares me about State only having 10 scholarship players is State’s usual “luck” with regard to injuries.

    Other than that, I think less is more. This will ensure that Wood plays a lot at the 2 & 3 as well as Brown at the 2, 3, or even 1. This keeps CJL happy on the floor as he will do plenty of 3 as well as 4 (would love to see CJL at the top of a matchup zone sometimes ala the ‘Cuse do with long, athletic types or WV did with Ebanks). Having CJL at the 3 some keeps Howell happy with more minutes in the post along with Painter who has some potential to develop into a nice player.

    If anything, this higher quality but lower quantity team keeps Lowe from having to put those completely non-offense lineups out on the court for spells like he has had to do or simply done the last couple years with mostly inferior players.

    Davis was replaced by Thomas late last year because teams started backing off Davis so far because they knew he couldn’t shoot from the outside. Thomas didn’t show any outside proficiency either, but he caused a little change up simply because no one knew what he could do. Except for a few nice shots and free throws, the flow of the offense always came to a stall when Mays came in because he couldn’t shake or breakdown anyone on the dribble. Being “forced” to only play the types of combinations NYC listed should be a great thing if the injury bug can finally be avoided.

    It would be nice to have some happy happy bench guys, but, obviously, these guys hit the road because they wouldn’t be happy as practice players or mostly on the bench during games.

  5. Plz2BStateFan 06/13/2010 at 1:20 PM #

    This will force Lowe to stop playing with the rotation much sooner I think. Good god was it hard for him to settle on a lineup the past 2 years

  6. Lunatic Fringe 06/13/2010 at 1:40 PM #

    I tend to agree with nyc’s post.

    Additionally, I thought all 3 guys that left were good guys, good students, and appeared to have good work ethics that were all good qualities of a role player. The guys wanted to be more than role players so not sure that falls in line with what we need.

    Let’s be honest…all 3 players that left were all offensive liabilities on the floor. I hate to see them go, but that may also end the 6 minute scoring droughts as well.

    Mabry – It was probably best for him to get a change in scenery. I think he is a talented player, but moving up north may be a chance to have a fresh start.

  7. JeremyH 06/13/2010 at 2:12 PM #

    Players motivate each other through competition for playing time. Players like Davis and Thomas, when “hungry”, really make this process go. Everyone wins when there are competitive practices. I think these transfers place more pressure squarely on Lowe, though. Also the point about injuries is certainly valid, at any given time at least one or two guys are ailing from something or other. Then again, if this team makes a lot of noise and Lowe continues his recruiting as he has, then this sort of thing will take care of itself.

  8. VaWolf82 06/13/2010 at 3:20 PM #

    Personally, I’m a little more concerned about what the recent rash of transfers could say about chemistry and communication on the par of the staff

    Maybe. But I would be more concerned about “extra” things if ACC-quality players were transferring.

    These transfers reminds me of what happened when Herb recruited a bunch of ball players that were not ACC quality….4 transfers out of six scholarships awarded over a two-year period.

  9. 61Packer 06/13/2010 at 3:21 PM #

    Why is this suddenly such a problem (lack of depth)? I read on here over and over how all we needed was a PG. That was the problem. We didn’t have any coaching problems, we didn’t have any other problems except lacking a point guard.

    Like someone said a few days ago, all we’re doing is getting down to our “fighting weight”, right?

    When all you got is queen bees, who needs workerbees anyhow?

  10. StateFans 06/13/2010 at 3:22 PM #

    I understand your points. The couple of things that I didn’t take the time to throw in the entry but is on my mind:

    * This is NC State we are talking about. Will have plenty of injury issues to have to deal with.

    * I’m thinking as much about next year and the next…especially if CJ is as good as billed and goes pro.

    * I wanted to be in a position to redshirt Vandeberg. Less wing players means more CJ at a wing than a post…means less depth at post…means no redshirt for Jordan.

  11. wolfmanmat 06/13/2010 at 4:28 PM #

    If you look at top notch programs(aka Duke/Carolina); they have role players, BUT not 2-3 star role players. Their 4-5 star players learn their role. I think Sid is likely telling these kids that they won’t be playing much, which is the proper thing to do.

  12. NJpack 06/13/2010 at 4:35 PM #

    StateFans – weird post, is this a test to see if people are awake out there? Vandenberg is not going to redshirt, and while he should continue to develop his skills, he’s never going to be the go-to guy in the front court.

    Notice that Thomas, Mays, and Davis are transferring to schools in lesser conferences than the ACC. That is not a coincidence, that is their ability level. I completely agree with a previous post that this is the same issue we had with Sendek recruiting guys like Justin Flatt and Mike O’Donnell. Lowe recruited Thomas and Mays when he was new on the job, and the way Josh Davis shot free throws is a good reminder that although he played with effort, he had a ceiling on his ability.

    What this issue boils down to is an opportunity for CJ Williams and Painter to step up as the key reserves in the front court, while Gonzalez and Wood are the key reserves in the back court (I know Javi may start, but I doubt by mid-season if he finishes). By process of elimination, Williams and Wood will be playing at their natural positions, SF and SG, respectively.

    I feel optimism. With year 5 of Lowe’s tenure and 3 five star recruits on board, it’s now or never.

  13. john of sparta 06/13/2010 at 4:46 PM #

    “they aren’t a math major(s)”…
    telling comment by inference.

  14. GAWolf 06/13/2010 at 7:09 PM #

    Depth is relevant to the program and year AND the quality of players. Would someone agree that if we have ACC caliber players at every position in the starting lineup with similar talent though unproven at as their backups that we have more depth than having three interchangeable slightly below ACC caliber players at each position?

  15. bradleyb123 06/13/2010 at 7:52 PM #

    Why is this suddenly such a problem (lack of depth)? I read on here over and over how all we needed was a PG. That was the problem. We didn’t have any coaching problems, we didn’t have any other problems except lacking a point guard.

    Well, in all fairness, we didn’t have any problems with depth…… until we had about three players leave the team. The depth issue (if there is one, which is debatable) only became an issue recently.

    When we said all we needed was a point guard, the unwritten/unspoken assumption was that we DON’T lose other players.

    But I’m really not too concerned anyway. Not for this year anyway. It would be better to have a few more options still sitting on the bench. Every great team needs role players, and we’ve probably lost a couple of those. So that hurts a little bit. But I’m not going to run around like chicken little over these particular transfers. It probably won’t become an issue, unless some players get injured or something. And I can’t imagine that happening to an NC State team. 😉

  16. Pack Mentality 06/13/2010 at 10:09 PM #

    Look at all the players that have left the team this year. If any of them were to see meaningful minutes on an ACC team that team would be one of the worst teams in the league. I fail to see the problem of players that are not ACC caliber leave.

  17. StateFans 06/14/2010 at 6:04 AM #

    With all due respect, Josh Davis played key roles in helping us win games early last year – particularly at Marquette.

    I wasn’t relying on these three guys to play ‘meaningful minutes’…but just their sheer presence on the bench to be available to play any minutes if needed would be better than not having them at all. We now have 10 scholarship players for this season. Any typical NC State rash of injuries and we will be very thin.

    Barring anything unforeseen, we will have only FIVE (of 13 scholarship) players in the junior and senior classes next season.

    I just wish we had a little more depth this season and a little better scholarship spacing for future seasons. Thats’ all.

  18. VaWolf82 06/14/2010 at 8:09 AM #

    I just wish we had a little more depth this season and a little better scholarship spacing for future seasons.

    I think that the days of coherent scholarship spacing are pretty much gone for winning programs…at least until the rules for turning pro in FB and baseball are applied to basketball.

    If you are getting top kids, then you can always expect some to go pro early and those that don’t get enough playing time (in their minds) to look at transferring. (Of course, State has managed to get into this position without winning anything first.) We’ve seen both UNC and Duke go up and down as their rosters twist and turn. There’s no reason to think that it will change anytime soon.

  19. Packfan28 06/14/2010 at 9:28 AM #

    This is a great discussion! And I’m thinking it is so much nicer to be having this problem rather than the problems we have had in the past. Marginally talented players leaving because of playing time issues? I’ll take that over which crappy player is going to play and which crappy player is going to sit.

    I do agree though, something big needs to happen on the recruiting front for 2011, or we will have serious depth issues. Not so much this year.

  20. coach13 06/14/2010 at 9:49 AM #

    My only concern is who Lowe gets in with Uchebo (who I think will be a project) and what positions he needs to recruit for the 11-12 season.

  21. nycfan 06/14/2010 at 11:18 AM #

    All teams are susceptible to injury but given the flexibility of so many of the players on this roster, State seems reasonably well constructed to withstand injuries this season.

    Now, if the concern is for next season and beyond, you’ve got a point. State loses Gonzalez & Smith and, if he has any chance of going pro, Leslie. No sign yet whether Painter or Howell could step into a more go-to role in the future and no one committed to replace that level of talent.

    In addition, if Harrow is really as good as some are predicting, how long can he be expected to stay at State, even given his slight build? I dunno, maybe he is going to have great COLLEGE player written all over him and be a thorn in the side of the ACC for 4 years without much threat to go pro (see Delanye at VPI?) …

    So at the moment, this upcoming season looks like a very slender window for Lowe & Co. to make some serious noise before having to rebuild/regroup a bit next season. But the return of Johnny Thomas, at least, wouldn’t have changed that.

  22. packalum44 06/17/2010 at 8:52 AM #

    NYC I think you and some others are missing the point. Its not that anyone expected Johnny or Mays or Davis to contribute a LOT. But we did expect them to contribute a LITTLE. Hell Mays hit a game winning shot for us. Davis’s hustle won us a game or two. JT never played for whatever reason but he was the most athletic person on the team I find it hard to believe he couldn’t have contributed on the defensive end and rebound for us had he stuck around and was healthy.

    The fact that 3 kids left the program in one year is odd to say the least. It makes me suspicious that something is just not right and I think it can be used adversely in recruiting by other coaches. I’ve made this analogy many times but I’ll make it again…just because you have money in a 2% savings account doesn’t mean you take it out and earn nothing. If you were a treasurer of a company and did this you’re boss would fire you on the spot, especially if you had some bone-headed justification like many fans do about all these transfers.

    We are essentially earning a low return on our assets (scholarships) with guys who don’t contribute much…but when we take those assets and stick them up our ass we aren’t earning anything. Not to mention we have a shit load of scholarships open next year and we will not fill ALL of them with quality or better players.

    I mean hell, just say ahh shucks too bad it kind of sucks but not a huge deal. Okay that makes sense. Its not a HUGE deal but some idiots are saying its better these 3 guys have left and that’s just retarded.

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