NC State 59, Virginia Tech 71

09-10 Basketball282

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09-10 Basketball

282 Responses to NC State 59, Virginia Tech 71

  1. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 11:17 AM #

    “Rochester is right. Both kids were offered and verbally accepted as Juniors in high school. The committed in Oct and Nov 2006 and enrolled in fall of 2008”
    —————————————————–
    I stand corrected, I was inaccurately including CJ in Javi’s class, which he was not. Javi was the one that had been picked over, and Farnold was a transfer in. I think CJ and Julius were more a product of, the best available by the time Sid had been appointed the position. My mistake.

  2. choppack1 03/04/2010 at 11:21 AM #

    TOB4PREZ – I’m just saying, I’m sure every unsuccessful coach has a sob story about this or that one.

    You know Les Robinson had Donald Williams, then he had Stackhouse…I’m sure HWSBN felt the same way about Shea Cotton and Al Harrington and Mustafa Shakur…but you know what – at the end of the day – the excuses go away and you’re record speaks for itself.

    I’d encourage you to look at someone’s NBA record and his ACC record when he walked into a program that just needed 1 or 2 consistent guards to be right back in the NCAA tourney (any of the last 4 years).

    You’re welcome to think it’s just a fluke or bad luck or bad breaks. Heck, I hope it is – here’s hoping that Sid can fill his roster w/ 4 and 5 star recruits, and can win w/ them, because he can’t do so w/ 3 and 4 star kids.

  3. Wulfpack 03/04/2010 at 11:21 AM #

    I would just like to go on record to say if Sid were dismissed (not happening), that we shouldn’t expect to improve in 2 or 3 years.

    I’ve seen enough basketball to know that a coaching change can do a lot for a program in a relatively short amount of time. Of course, you have to find the right guy. And we have someone incompetent making those decisions. So we are perpetually screwed until that changes.

    It’s awful hard to be a Wolfpack fan these days. Awful hard.

  4. ldr of the pk 75 03/04/2010 at 11:22 AM #

    All of the banter doesn’t hide a few important facts.

    Sid was hired with a resume that included virtually no coaching or personnel developmental experience with a team, or organization that is or was a winner. Playing for a winner is a whole world away from coaching and managing one.

    On his lack of familiarity with the HS teams or recruits from which he might find a point guard, what about his assistant Monte Towe? He too played on a National Championship team, and his post player experience has been virtually all in college coaching. Hence, he should have a relationship at the HS level. Why are we in year 4 with point guards as pathetic as what we have?

    All of this brings one to ask, why were the reigns of a bigtime program turned over to a person with no experience? And if the powers to be felt he was “the man” and are paying him the amount of money he makes, shouldn’t there be some accountability?

    How many of you out there slid in the back door to your job, that you are being paid 1 mil+ per year for, are now in year 4, unsuccessful by any measure, and have the support of management and shareholders? And, have any of the shareholders willing to risk another year or two, or three? Not even in a family business would this be acceptable.

    If I was an uninterested party, say a consultant, just looking in at your business set up etc, I’d have to ask you, have you lost your minds?

    So, what is it?

  5. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 11:24 AM #

    Damn, I just checked and saw where (according to Scout) CJ Williams was the #27 SF in the country in his class. Realistically, we’ve all seen moments where that seems justified… unfortunately, we’ve also seen times where that seem ridiculous. Either way, I think CJ was one of the better options Sid had left when it came time to garner commitments for that class. Not to mention the fact that CJ really wanted to play for us, not unlike Josh Davis, who also has a decent future in our program.. but was NOT recognized nationally.

  6. jbpackfan 03/04/2010 at 11:24 AM #

    TOB- All decisions you make regarding something you care about are somewhat based on emotion. You can’t take that out of the equation. Hell, if you just look at the facts, the case for Lowe is weaker. I think State’s emotional ties to Lowe for what he did in 83 are a major reason why he will be back next year. It’s a travesty that Lowe’s legacy here is tarnished b/c of an incompetent AD.

  7. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 11:36 AM #

    That’s just it jb… I’m not ready to cast Sid’s “legacy” as a coach in stone yet. His ability to recruit is far greater than anything we’ve seen since JV’s days, and I personally think he has a great rapport with his players, which was certainly not the case with our neighbors and their “alum coach”. I will pass my FINAL judgement on Sid once his body of work is done, and that may or may not be next year… I have no vested interest in Sid being our HC, I just feel like he should be given the chance to coach the first big time PG(s) this program has seen since Corch. Again, after that… he’s on his own. I’m just not willing to WAIT ANOTHER ???? years to watch our next coach assemble enough talent to compete on the national level. With next year’s recruits on campus, and a full year under their belt, I think we’d have a MUCH easier job conducting a job search, hell.. the overt LACK of real talent that Sid walked into may have been the detractor that kept the “big name” guys from signing with us then. That “detractor” will NOT be there with guys like Harrow, Brown, Howell, and Cothron on the roster. This discussion after next year (IF warranted) will be far more productive for the program…. having it THIS year is merely a waste of breath and energy, for it’s NOT what’s best for the program. Again, can ONE person give me a legitimate reason for NOT letting Sid brings this immense talent onto campus before being shown the door???

  8. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 11:39 AM #

    “How many of you out there slid in the back door to your job, that you are being paid 1 mil+ per year for, are now in year 4, unsuccessful by any measure, and have the support of management and shareholders?”
    ——————————————————————–
    When my predecessor had an equally horrific start to his reign and was given a FULL SIX years, I’d fully expect to be given just FIVE to produce my first winning results.
    Precedence has been set… right or wrong, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander as well…. particularly when the gander is one of our own.
    Sorry.

  9. choppack1 03/04/2010 at 11:54 AM #

    TOB – it’s not apples to apples.

    Here’s an apples to apples comparison:
    *You’ve got a once proud corporation that makes golf shirts- a few times it had been corporation in the nation at what it did.

    *It was caught in a conflict – and basically, the brand became a joke – and it started losing money hand over fist. When compared to it’s competitors, it was the worst in the industry.

    *You brought in a new CEO – he starts slowly and improves the results, but your company is still not making money. It’s no longer the worst in the country – but it’s not in the top half of brands.

    *After trying this for 5 years, your CEO decides it has failed and fires half the management- and changes the way you make golf shirts.

    *The next five years, you see a return to respectability of your brand and it’s started making money again.

    *While your brand is making money – many shareholders do not believe that the CEO is fulling capitalizing on the brand name and there is still room for more upward growth. Your CEO leaves.

    *You hire a CEO who has been making button down shirts for years. He’s even led a couple of companies that made them. His results there sucked – they were awful. Of course, in each case, he inherited a company that was struggling…so it was easy to excuse his failure.

    *He has no experience making golf shirts – and his results when he was CEO of the button down shirts suck.

    *He’s been at his job 4 years, and he’s yet to make a profit, he’s yet to match the earning of the previous CEO.

    Do you think he’s a good CEO?

  10. Rochester 03/04/2010 at 11:57 AM #

    Precedence shouldn’t matter. This isn’t a Supreme Court decision. Should Syracuse let every rapist in the country play for them because they once took Billy Edelin in?

    And enough with the one-sided “can ONE person give me a legitimate reason for NOT letting Sid brings this immense talent onto campus before being shown the door?” Many people have provided many legitimate reasons, starting with a 19-44 ACC record. You just see things differently.

  11. RSP123 03/04/2010 at 11:58 AM #

    Great discussion. My two cents . . . like or not we keep Sid until we have a new AD! This will give Sid next year to prove his worth one way or the other. The big question is when is Fowler dismissed! In my opinion – only then do we part ways with Sid if that is necessary. Fowler is the reason we are having this discussion! Go Pack!

  12. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 12:02 PM #

    chop, you lost me at “The next five years, you see a return to respectability of your brand and it’s started making money again.”… because it took Herb SIX years to return us to respectable… he did NOT do that in his first five.
    the bottom line has NOT changed, Sid’s predecessor WAS given SIX full years to right the ship, and he eventually DID, he just had a lower ceiling that what our fanbase wanted (me included). Having said that, I was not among the “HERB MUST GO” crowd… I liked the guy and think he’s a decent coach, just not great. I was of the opinion that he had reached his ceiling when this same intelligent person left us high and dry at the altar. he clearly could not stand the criticism, and quite frankly I don’t want a CEO with thin skin, so I was less than disappointed at his departure.
    Again, the positives of giving Sid a 5th year to prove his worth far outweigh the negatives of firing him before then, and NOTHING has been shown to me to prove the contrary, sorry.

  13. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 12:07 PM #

    “Many people have provided many legitimate reasons, starting with a 19-44 ACC record. You just see things differently.”
    ==============================================

    I’ll gladly concede that just as soon as you concede that we’ll be losing most of (if not all of) a top 10 class, which is way MORE damage than I’m willing to accept.
    After you………

  14. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 12:10 PM #

    I’d love to see a list of coaches that would be chomping at the bit to come to State after their predecessors were: “run off by the fanbase” and “not given the chance to coach the best class assembled this century”….like it or not that would be the popular opinion of those outside the organization.

    I have a sneaky suspicion that that would be a mighty short list.

  15. Grumpy Llama 03/04/2010 at 12:23 PM #

    TOB, I understand your point about giving Sid a fifth year to get the talent in here, and your assertion that it would do more good than harm. A huge potential negative in my mind is that IF Sid finishes next year around 7th or 8th in the ACC, a real possibility in my opinion, the fan base will become even more divided. Some people (though if I’m reading this correctly, not necessarily you) will be satisfied with the “progress.” Then the decision is even harder. There’s the big (potential) downside.

  16. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 12:30 PM #

    Thanks grumpy…. I’ve stated MULTIPLE times that I think anything that’s NOT above .500 should result in his dismissal after next season.. in fact, I think I’ve mentioned in this thread that if there’s ever an “8” in our “L” column of league games, I’m all for showing Sid the door. I don’t recall the last time or EVER that a team finished above .500 in league play and that was only good enough for 7th or 8th. I also have stated that next year’s team MUST be invited to the big dance for Sid to be granted a 6th year, and while that may seem a bit harsh… it’s just what I think. Also, I don’t think that “division amongst the fanbase” has any effect on our performance on the court… so that part hardly matters to me. There will ALWAYS be division… that’s what makes us INDIVIDUALS…. we all can’t think alike.
    My patience, like most… is at it’s end, but I canNOT sit idly by while people call for Sid’s head BEFORE next year… I just can’t do it. My love of logic just won’t allow it.

  17. Wulfpack 03/04/2010 at 12:31 PM #

    We are already riding down a very slippery slope. I don’t know how much more this fanbase can take.

  18. choppack1 03/04/2010 at 12:54 PM #

    So TOB – we see things differently.

    You seem to think that the only factor one should consider is how many years your predecessor got to turn it around.

    And you think that because HWSBN got 6 seasons to get to the tournament – Lowe deserves 5 years right?

    It doesn’t matter to you the difference between the program when the respective coaches took the job.

    It doesn’t matter whether or not they did better than their predecessor. (I’ll give you a hint, the current coach HAS YET TO MATCH any of his predecesor’s last 5 seasons. OTOH, HWSBN NEVER HAD A CONFERENCE RECORD AS BAD AS HIS PREDECESSOR’S LAST SEASON.)

    And guess what – if someone doesn’t win this game and 3 tournament games this year – his first 4 year record is worse than his replacements first 4 year records. But please, by all means, continue to absolve someone of ownerhship of this mess.

  19. Rochester 03/04/2010 at 12:54 PM #

    I canNOT sit idly by while people call for Sid’s head BEFORE next year… I just can’t do it. My love of logic just won’t allow it.

    Other than posting on message boards, what actions are you taking to counter those who want a better coach?

  20. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 1:15 PM #

    “Other than posting on message boards, what actions are you taking to counter those who want a better coach?”
    —————————————————————–
    I’m streaking through the QUAD later on tonight….. care to join me???

    and to answer chop- did 2/3rds of Herb’s first class ABANDON their commitments to the University in search of greener pastures??? Also, I’d submit that Herb inherited FAR SUPERIOR ATHLETES than those that Sid did… Herb was clearly NOT interested in ATHLETES… he just wanted tall guys that float around the perimeter and chuck a 3 as the shot clock expired… so in some regards, Sid inherited quite a bit LESS than his predecessor. Benjamin, Thornton, Harrison…. any of those ATHLETES ring a bell???

  21. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 1:17 PM #

    seriously though rochester… I’ve written a letter to our esteemed AD’s office pledging my support for Sid through next year… I explained that I’ll continue to financially support the program through next season with Sid, but that if he’s shown the door before then I will not be renewing my basketball tix for next season…. that’s all i’ve done outside of combatting the naysayers on message boards.
    do you have any further suggestions???

  22. ldr of the pk 75 03/04/2010 at 1:20 PM #

    Just for logic sake, FDR got 3 terms as President of the US. “We the People” changed the rules, 2 terms max. So, tell me again, why we shouldn’t disrupt the logic of “Herb was given six so….Sid gets”…?

    My only reason for not cutting ties now is the prospect of Jed being able to conduct another futile search. Recruits aren’t as much of an issue with me. If you hire the right coach, recruits will be lining up at your door. Like him or not, did all the good recruits abandon KY when Calapari was hired?

    We tend to focus short term,…. WTNY,…. great recruiting class,…great late season win,… whatever. We need to think long term. Great Coach, great philosophy, great recruiting ability, paid well for production,……and long term the program prospers.

    I’ll gladly give up next year to have a chance at that. Another year of Sid and Co. is just postponing the enevitable, IMO. I feel bad about that because I think we all wanted him to be successful. If Sid isn’t appreciably better next year and gets fired, these hotshot recruits can bail out then just like now. Some things just never turn out the way we want them. I’ve seen nothing that tells me he has the ability to make us a winner. Same with Jed.

  23. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 1:21 PM #

    oh, and to chop’s statement….
    “You seem to think that the only factor one should consider is how many years your predecessor got to turn it around.”
    ———————————————-
    what part of i’m NOT willing to risk losing one of our best classes in my lifetime are you NOT getting??? I think that’s ANOTHER “factor”. one that btw- you’ve conveniently AVOIDED addressing.

  24. TOB4PREZ 03/04/2010 at 1:24 PM #

    “Like him or not, did all the good recruits abandon KY when Calapari was hired?”
    ——————————————–
    NO, they abandoned MEMPHIS… which is where Wall was headed had cal stayed there. Now, add to that, that Memphis’ new coach has proven to be quite the recruiter too, yet even he couldn’t convince the DeMarcus Cousins of the world to remain committed to Memphis.
    But by all means, just use the part that helps your “story” even if it means AVOIDING the FACTUAL data.

  25. choppack1 03/04/2010 at 1:45 PM #

    TOB – the “best class” argument is the only reason I can see for keeping him as head coach….and you weren’t bringing that up.

    If you noticed – I was criticizing your belief that we should give Sid 5 years because we gave HWSBN 6.

    That’s a position that I find headscratching – because in a case like this, you aren’t looking at what’s best for NC State – rather – what’s best for the coach. HWSBN should NOT have been given a 6th year based on his results. SL should NOT be given a 5th year based on his results.

    Unlike HWSBN – he can make no claim whatsoever of tangible progress 4 years into his tenure.

    Unlike HWSBN, he cannot make a claim that 4 years into his tenure, he has moved the program forward – even if just in a very minor fashion.

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